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Maybe Malaysia should stop flying planes: 777 crashed in Ukraine

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preslove said:
Yeah, no Americans announced, yet. Putin lucked out on that front. I doubt France will end up selling those helicopter carriers to Russia, though. Plus a hell of a lot of sanctions.



Exactly. These aren't random deserters, but Russian paramilitary forces engaged in false flag operations: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_flag.
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I don't think you know what that term means...

Russia is just conducting proxy war. False flag would've been Ukrainian army shooting it down to make it seem like the Russian "separatists" did it...
 
luv2liv said:
tragic event.
Obama saying at least 1 american aboard. but im very confused why in this day and age we cant get a definite number. so they dont have a record who boarded the plane? for real???
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You do realize we are talking about Malaysian Airlines right 😛

Pantoot said:
It doesn't explain it away, but they came out and said that there was nobody flying with a US passport. The deceased must have had dual citizenship, and was flying with their other passport. I imagine tracking down those people takes more time.
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What about someone with a US greencard, who would still use a foreign passport? Would they be considered American or not?
 
preslove said:
Uh... you know nothing about Russia's strategy for holding onto border states. What I have been describing is exactly what Russia did in Georgia in 2008. You have to be really ignorant of Russian tactics to not understand that those are Russian trained Ukrainians, Cossacks, and Russian intelligence officers who are using old Russian equipment. This has been pretty well covered.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...wning-of-the-malaysian-air-flight-accidental/


You have to be completely ill-informed, naive, and just plain dumb to not understand that this Russia's strategy of using false flag tactics to fight a war of aggression against a neighboring former USSR state.

Just STFU and go read about Russia's 2008 Georgia war and stop spouting your ignorant opinions.
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Calm down, man, this isn't P&N, these aren't opinions, I was merely listing options. I also said that whatever happened de facto has no importance, but what matters is how Russia responds. The provenance of the weapon, and operators skill could be native, but since their separatist movement is politically propped up by Russia, more overtly, than it is militarily propped up, the political reaction is the one that matters.
 
halik said:
I don't think you know what that term means...

Russia is just conducting proxy war. False flag would've been Ukrainian army shooting it down to make it seem like the Russian "separatists" did it...
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No, false flag is a broad term that covers any operation where the forces doing the fighting hide their true identities by adopting a different flag. A nation that invades a neighbor with troops who pretend to be separatists is conducting a false flag operation. From wiki:

The name "false flag" has its origins in naval warfare where the use of a flag other than the belligerent's true battle flag as a ruse de guerre, before engaging the enemy, has long been acceptable.[4] Such operations are also acceptable in certain circumstances in land warfare, to deceive enemies in similar ways providing that the deception is not perfidious and all such deceptions are discarded before opening fire upon the enemy.
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So, Russian forces pretending to be Ukrainian independent separatists is most definitely false flag.
_Rick_ said:
Calm down, man, this isn't P&N, these aren't opinions, I was merely listing options. I also said that whatever happened de facto has no importance, but what matters is how Russia responds. The provenance of the weapon, and operators skill could be native, but since their separatist movement is politically propped up by Russia, more overtly, than it is militarily propped up, the political reaction is the one that matters.
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The options you've listed are incredibly remote, given the facts of this case, recent Russian border conflicts, Russian border strategy, and Russian paramilitary training. The radio/phone intercepts of Russian intelligence officers saying "Cossack" fits exactly Putin's strategy of using a mix of Cossacks, Russian paramilitary trained locals, and russian intelligence officers to destabilize a border region as a pretext for annexation.
 
preslove said:
No, false flag is a broad term that covers any operation where the forces doing the fighting hide their true identities by adopting a different flag. A nation that invades a neighbor with troops who pretend to be separatists is conducting a false flag operation. From wiki:
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You're not wrong, but I think the term is generally used to refer to a nation state staging a provocation as a pretext for war. So if Russian forces snuck into Ukraine and lobbed some shells back over the boarder so Russia had an excuse to invade.

Of course, that is essentially what they're doing anyway, since if Ukraine ever really got the upperhand on the "seperatists", Russia would then just intervene under the guise of "protecting dissidents".

But I've heard the term "false flag" used more to refer to direct provocation.
 
sdifox said:
I just read on cbc that there may have been a hundred scientists on their way to Aids conference in Australia on that plane.
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I do not know if there where hundreds of scientists but there was at least one scientist called Joep Lange, a professor in infectious diseases and a prominent figure in the hiv and aids research.
 
Ns1 said:
24 hours later and we still don't know shit eh.
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Pretty sure we know a lot, or rather have strong reason to believe these things:


  • Missile was fired by Ukraine separatists, in an area they occupy.
  • Separatist claimed to down a plane in the area just as this one was shot down, no other planes were downed in the area.
  • Separatist remove claim from the web.
  • Missile was fired from a Russian Buk, requires technical expertise.
  • Separatists unlikely to have such expertise so they are likely supported by Russian troops, were Russian troops, were ex-Russian troops with current military equipment (convenient).
  • Everyone is dead.
That's quite a bit for 24 hours...
 
We probably know less now because the Russians are busy hiding or destroying evidence and hacking the internet to remove all traces. 😉

Probably won't even find the black boxes or find that they were destroyed.
 
Ns1 said:
I knew all that before I took off. So there was nothing new in the last 24 hours...
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Are you surprised? It's already happened. That's pretty much it.

I think people expect WWIII to occur because of this. Sadly in the grand scheme of things this isn't even a blip. This will all fade away and most will forget about it in a few days.

These countries are known hostile territories, these things happen.
 
maddogchen said:
We probably know less now because the Russians are busy hiding or destroying evidence and hacking the internet to remove all traces. 😉

Probably won't even find the black boxes or find that they were destroyed.
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Just wait until this thread disappears.
 
Blackjack200 said:
You're not wrong, but I think the term is generally used to refer to a nation state staging a provocation as a pretext for war. So if Russian forces snuck into Ukraine and lobbed some shells back over the boarder so Russia had an excuse to invade.

Of course, that is essentially what they're doing anyway, since if Ukraine ever really got the upperhand on the "seperatists", Russia would then just intervene under the guise of "protecting dissidents".

But I've heard the term "false flag" used more to refer to direct provocation.
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it's both false flag and proxy war. most likely there are both russian agents pretending to be separatists and actual separatists armed by the russians.

false flag lately has lately been used in this country to describe a fake provocation attack on a country by its own forces, largely due to usage by truthers.
 
ElFenix said:
it's both false flag and proxy war. most likely there are both russian agents pretending to be separatists and actual separatists armed by the russians.

false flag lately has lately been used in this country to describe a fake provocation attack on a country by its own forces, largely due to usage by truthers.
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Indeed.

Though Putin used the conflict in Georgia as a pretense to invade on a "peace keeping" mission to protect the breakaway Georgian province. Who knows if he was planning on invading Ukraine before, but I doubt it will happen after this fuck up.
 
Ns1 said:
Just heard on the radio international investigators got denied access to the crash site.
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Yet the reporters get to wander around the site to snap pictures for all the world to see. Disgusting how this is being handled.

"The perimeter is not secure whatsoever," Bociurkiw said. "They seemed to have put some tape up where we were standing, but otherwise it's very easy for anyone, really, to walk in there and tamper with evidence or debris. So a lot of work needs to be done. A lot of professional work, very, very quickly."
In the United States or other Western nations, law enforcement would have put the crash site off limits to the morbidly curious right away. In east Ukraine, reporters walked right up to pieces of wreckage to do stand-up reports.
A small crew of emergency workers from the Ukraine government arrived and began working on the scene, but they need more people and resources to properly handle a crash that killed 298 people. They're obviously working with the permission of the militants. At night the groups mingled, seemingly without hostility, and even shared tents.
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malaysia_boleh.jpg
 
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Ukraine says they have proof about the buk that shot down MH17.
I expect if they really have this proof, they are going to postpone showing the evidence until all victims have been returned and investigators have done their jobs and have returned the parts of the plane. Otherwise the conflict is just going to flare up immediately and the area will turn into a war zone again. Making investigation and salvaging of the victims impossible.
 
According to the news, the rebels have loaded 196 bodies into cooled wagons in a train station. The destination for the train is still unknown. Ukrainian investigators are allowed and dutch investigators are to arrive soon or are at this moment already present on the crash site.
 
William Gaatjes said:
According to the news, the rebels have loaded 196 bodies into cooled wagons in a train station. The destination for the train is still unknown. Ukrainian investigators are allowed and dutch investigators are to arrive soon or are at this moment already present on the crash site.
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http://www.buzzfeed.com/alanwhite/bodies-from-malaysian-airlines-crash-left-to-rot-in-deserted

The bodies are just sitting there with no guards..not even sure the cars refrigeration system is working.. Bodies heavily decomposed after 3 days of lying on field...so sad
 
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