May Unemployment Rises to 9.1%

Page 8 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Here is problem

Squanderville versus Thriftville by Warren Buffet
2008 March 28

Warren Buffet
October 2003 FORTUNE

I’m about to deliver a warning regarding the U.S. trade deficit and also suggest a remedy for the problem. But first I need to mention two reasons you might want to be skeptical about what I say. To begin, my forecasting record with respect to macroeconomics is far from inspiring. For example, over the past two decades I was excessively fearful of inflation. More to the point at hand, I started way back in 1987 to publicly worry about our mounting trade deficits — and, as you know, we’ve not only survived but also thrived. So on the trade front, score at least one “wolf” for me. Nevertheless, I am crying wolf again and this time backing it with Berkshire Hathaway’s money. Through the spring of 2002, I had lived nearly 72 years without purchasing a foreign currency. Since then Berkshire has made significant investments in — and today holds — several currencies. I won’t give you particulars; in fact, it is largely irrelevant which currencies they are. What does matter is the underlying point: To hold other currencies is to believe that the dollar will decline.

Both as an American and as an investor, I actually hope these commitments prove to be a mistake. Any profits Berkshire might make from currency trading would pale against the losses the company and our shareholders, in other aspects of their lives, would incur from a plunging dollar.

But as head of Berkshire Hathaway, I am in charge of investing its money in ways that make sense. And my reason for finally putting my money where my mouth has been so long is that our trade deficit has greatly worsened, to the point that our country’s “net worth,” so to speak, is now being transferred abroad at an alarming rate.

A perpetuation of this transfer will lead to major trouble. To understand why, take a wildly fanciful trip with me to two isolated, side-by-side islands of equal size, Squanderville and Thriftville. Land is the only capital asset on these islands, and their communities are primitive, needing only food and producing only food. Working eight hours a day, in fact, each inhabitant can produce enough food to sustain himself or herself. And for a long time that’s how things go along. On each island everybody works the prescribed eight hours a day, which means that each society is self-sufficient.

Eventually, though, the industrious citizens of Thriftville decide to do some serious saving and investing, and they start to work 16 hours a day. In this mode they continue to live off the food they produce in eight hours of work but begin exporting an equal amount to their one and only trading outlet, Squanderville.

The citizens of Squanderville are ecstatic about this turn of events, since they can now live their lives free from toil but eat as well as ever. Oh, yes, there’s a quid pro quo — but to the Squanders, it seems harmless: All that the Thrifts want in exchange for their food is Squanderbonds (which are denominated, naturally, in Squanderbucks).

Over time Thriftville accumulates an enormous amount of these bonds, which at their core represent claim checks on the future output of Squanderville. A few pundits in Squanderville smell trouble coming. They foresee that for the Squanders both to eat and to pay off — or simply service — the debt they’re piling up will eventually require them to work more than eight hours a day. But the residents of Squanderville are in no mood to listen to such doomsaying.

Meanwhile, the citizens of Thriftville begin to get nervous. Just how good, they ask, are the IOUs of a shiftless island? So the Thrifts change strategy: Though they continue to hold some bonds, they sell most of them to Squanderville residents for Squanderbucks and use the proceeds to buy Squanderville land. And eventually the Thrifts own all of Squanderville.

At that point, the Squanders are forced to deal with an ugly equation: They must now not only return to working eight hours a day in order to eat — they have nothing left to trade — but must also work additional hours to service their debt and pay Thriftville rent on the land so imprudently sold. In effect, Squanderville has been colonized by purchase rather than conquest.

It can be argued, of course, that the present value of the future production that Squanderville must forever ship to Thriftville only equates to the production Thriftville initially gave up and that therefore both have received a fair deal. But since one generation of Squanders gets the free ride and future generations pay in perpetuity for it, there are — in economist talk — some pretty dramatic “intergenerational inequities.”

Let’s think of it in terms of a family: Imagine that I, Warren Buffett, can get the suppliers of all that I consume in my lifetime to take Buffett family IOUs that are payable, in goods and services and with interest added, by my descendants. This scenario may be viewed as effecting an even trade between the Buffett family unit and its creditors. But the generations of Buffetts following me are not likely to applaud the deal (and, heaven forbid, may even attempt to welsh on it).

Think again about those islands: Sooner or later the Squanderville government, facing ever greater payments to service debt, would decide to embrace highly inflationary policies — that is, issue more Squanderbucks to dilute the value of each. After all, the government would reason, those irritating Squanderbonds are simply claims on specific numbers of Squanderbucks, not on bucks of specific value. In short, making Squanderbucks less valuable would ease the island’s fiscal pain.

That prospect is why I, were I a resident of Thriftville, would opt for direct ownership of Squanderville land rather than bonds of the island’s government. Most governments find it much harder morally to seize foreign-owned property than they do to dilute the purchasing power of claim checks foreigners hold. Theft by stealth is preferred to theft by force.

So what does all this island hopping have to do with the U.S.? Simply put, after World War II and up until the early 1970s we operated in the industrious Thriftville style, regularly selling more abroad than we purchased. We concurrently invested our surplus abroad, with the result that our net investment — that is, our holdings of foreign assets less foreign holdings of U.S. assets — increased (under methodology, since revised, that the government was then using) from $37 billion in 1950 to $68 billion in 1970. In those days, to sum up, our country’s “net worth,” viewed in totality, consisted of all the wealth within our borders plus a modest portion of the wealth in the rest of the world.

Additionally, because the U.S. was in a net ownership position with respect to the rest of the world, we realized net investment income that, piled on top of our trade surplus, became a second source of investable funds. Our fiscal situation was thus similar to that of an individual who was both saving some of his salary and reinvesting the dividends from his existing nest egg.

In the late 1970s the trade situation reversed, producing deficits that initially ran about 1 percent of GDP. That was hardly serious, particularly because net investment income remained positive. Indeed, with the power of compound interest working for us, our net ownership balance hit its high in 1980 at $360 billion.

Since then, however, it’s been all downhill, with the pace of decline rapidly accelerating in the past five years. Our annual trade deficit now exceeds 4 percent of GDP. Equally ominous, the rest of the world owns a staggering $2.5 trillion more of the U.S. than we own of other countries. Some of this $2.5 trillion is invested in claim checks — U.S. bonds, both governmental and private — and some in such assets as property and equity securities.

In effect, our country has been behaving like an extraordinarily rich family that possesses an immense farm. In order to consume 4 percent more than we produce — that’s the trade deficit — we have, day by day, been both selling pieces of the farm and increasing the mortgage on what we still own.

To put the $2.5 trillion of net foreign ownership in perspective, contrast it with the $12 trillion value of publicly owned U.S. stocks or the equal amount of U.S. residential real estate or what I would estimate as a grand total of $50 trillion in national wealth. Those comparisons show that what’s already been transferred abroad is meaningful — in the area, for example, of 5 percent of our national wealth.

More important, however, is that foreign ownership of our assets will grow at about $500 billion per year at the present trade-deficit level, which means that the deficit will be adding about one percentage point annually to foreigners’ net ownership of our national wealth. As that ownership grows, so will the annual net investment income flowing out of this country. That will leave us paying ever-increasing dividends and interest to the world rather than being a net receiver of them, as in the past. We have entered the world of negative compounding — goodbye pleasure, hello pain.

We were taught in Economics 101 that countries could not for long sustain large, ever-growing trade deficits. At a point, so it was claimed, the spree of the consumption-happy nation would be braked by currency-rate adjustments and by the unwillingness of creditor countries to accept an endless flow of IOUs from the big spenders. And that’s the way it has indeed worked for the rest of the world, as we can see by the abrupt shutoffs of credit that many profligate nations have suffered in recent decades.

The U.S., however, enjoys special status. In effect, we can behave today as we wish because our past financial behavior was so exemplary — and because we are so rich. Neither our capacity nor our intention to pay is questioned, and we continue to have a mountain of desirable assets to trade for consumables. In other words, our national credit card allows us to charge truly breathtaking amounts. But that card’s credit line is not limitless.

The time to halt this trading of assets for consumables is now, and I have a plan to suggest for getting it done. My remedy may sound gimmicky, and in truth it is a tariff called by another name. But this is a tariff that retains most free-market virtues, neither protecting specific industries nor punishing specific countries nor encouraging trade wars. This plan would increase our exports and might well lead to increased overall world trade. And it would balance our books without there being a significant decline in the value of the dollar, which I believe is otherwise almost certain to occur.

We would achieve this balance by issuing what I will call Import Certificates (ICs) to all U.S. exporters in an amount equal to the dollar value of their exports. Each exporter would, in turn, sell the ICs to parties — either exporters abroad or importers here — wanting to get goods into the U.S. To import $1 million of goods, for example, an importer would need ICs that were the byproduct of $1 million of exports. The inevitable result: trade balance.

Because our exports total about $80 billion a month, ICs would be issued in huge, equivalent quantities — that is, 80 billion certificates a month — and would surely trade in an exceptionally liquid market. Competition would then determine who among those parties wanting to sell to us would buy the certificates and how much they would pay. (I visualize that the certificates would be issued with a short life, possibly of six months, so that speculators would be discouraged from accumulating them.)

For illustrative purposes, let’s postulate that each IC would sell for 10 cents — that is, 10 cents per dollar of exports behind them. Other things being equal, this amount would mean a U.S. producer could realize 10 percent more by selling his goods in the export market than by selling them domestically, with the extra 10 percent coming from his sales of ICs.

In my opinion, many exporters would view this as a reduction in cost, one that would let them cut the prices of their products in international markets. Commodity-type products would particularly encourage this kind of behavior. If aluminum, for example, was selling for 66 cents per pound domestically and ICs were worth 10 percent, domestic aluminum producers could sell for about 60 cents per pound (plus transportation costs) in foreign markets and still earn normal margins. In this scenario, the output of the U.S. would become significantly more competitive and exports would expand. Along the way, the number of jobs would grow.

Foreigners selling to us, of course, would face tougher economics. But that’s a problem they’re up against no matter what trade “solution” is adopted — and make no mistake, a solution must come. (As Herb Stein said, “If something cannot go on forever, it will stop.”) In one way the IC approach would give countries selling to us great flexibility, since the plan does not penalize any specific industry or product. In the end, the free market would determine what would be sold in the U.S. and who would sell it. The ICs would determine only the aggregate dollar volume of what was sold.

To see what would happen to imports, let’s look at a car now entering the U.S. at a cost to the importer of $20,000. Under the new plan and the assumption that ICs sell for 10 percent, the importer’s cost would rise to $22,000. If demand for the car was exceptionally strong, the importer might manage to pass all of this on to the American consumer. In the usual case, however, competitive forces would take hold, requiring the foreign manufacturer to absorb some, if not all, of the $2,000 IC cost.

There is no free lunch in the IC plan: It would have certain serious negative consequences for U.S. citizens. Prices of most imported products would increase, and so would the prices of certain competitive products manufactured domestically. The cost of the ICs, either in whole or in part, would therefore typically act as a tax on consumers.

That is a serious drawback. But there would be drawbacks also to the dollar continuing to lose value or to our increasing tariffs on specific products or instituting quotas on them — courses of action that in my opinion offer a smaller chance of success. Above all, the pain of higher prices on goods imported today dims beside the pain we will eventually suffer if we drift along and trade away ever larger portions of our country’s net worth.

I believe that ICs would produce, rather promptly, a U.S. trade equilibrium well above present export levels but below present import levels. The certificates would moderately aid all our industries in world competition, even as the free market determined which of them ultimately met the test of “comparative advantage.”

This plan would not be copied by nations that are net exporters, because their ICs would be valueless. Would major exporting countries retaliate in other ways? Would this start another Smoot-Hawley tariff war? Hardly. At the time of Smoot-Hawley we ran an unreasonable trade surplus that we wished to maintain. We now run a damaging deficit that the whole world knows we must correct.

For decades the world has struggled with a shifting maze of punitive tariffs, export subsidies, quotas, dollar-locked currencies, and the like. Many of these import-inhibiting and export-encouraging devices have long been employed by major exporting countries trying to amass ever larger surpluses — yet significant trade wars have not erupted. Surely one will not be precipitated by a proposal that simply aims at balancing the books of the world’s largest trade debtor. Major exporting countries have behaved quite rationally in the past and they will continue to do so — though, as always, it may be in their interest to attempt to convince us that they will behave otherwise.

The likely outcome of an IC plan is that the exporting nations — after some initial posturing — will turn their ingenuity to encouraging imports from us. Take the position of China, which today sells us about $140 billion of goods and services annually while purchasing only $25 billion. Were ICs to exist, one course for China would be simply to fill the gap by buying 115 billion certificates annually. But it could alternatively reduce its need for ICs by cutting its exports to the U.S. or by increasing its purchases from us. This last choice would probably be the most palatable for China, and we should wish it to be so.

If our exports were to increase and the supply of ICs were therefore to be enlarged, their market price would be driven down. Indeed, if our exports expanded sufficiently, ICs would be rendered valueless and the entire plan made moot. Presented with the power to make this happen, important exporting countries might quickly eliminate the mechanisms they now use to inhibit exports from us.

Were we to install an IC plan, we might opt for some transition years in which we deliberately ran a relatively small deficit, a step that would enable the world to adjust as we gradually got where we need to be. Carrying this plan out, our government could either auction “bonus” ICs every month or simply give them, say, to less-developed countries needing to increase their exports. The latter course would deliver a form of foreign aid likely to be particularly effective and appreciated.

I will close by reminding you again that I cried wolf once before. In general, the batting average of doomsayers in the U.S. is terrible. Our country has consistently made fools of those who were skeptical about either our economic potential or our resiliency. Many pessimistic seers simply underestimated the dynamism that has allowed us to overcome problems that once seemed ominous. We still have a truly remarkable country and economy.

But I believe that in the trade deficit we also have a problem that is going to test all of our abilities to find a solution. A gently declining dollar will not provide the answer. True, it would reduce our trade deficit to a degree, but not by enough to halt the outflow of our country’s net worth and the resulting growth in our investment-income deficit.

Perhaps there are other solutions that make more sense than mine. However, wishful thinking — and its usual companion, thumb sucking — is not among them. From what I now see, action to halt the rapid outflow of our national wealth is called for, and ICs seem the least painful and most certain way to get the job done. Just keep remembering that this is not a small problem: For example, at the rate at which the rest of the world is now making net investments in the U.S., it could annually buy and sock away nearly 4 percent of our publicly traded stocks.

In evaluating business options at Berkshire, my partner, Charles Munger, suggests that we pay close attention to his jocular wish: “All I want to know is where I’m going to die, so I’ll never go there.” Framers of our trade policy should heed this caution — and steer clear of Squanderville.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
The systems are one and the same. You are indoctrinated into the religion of Reagan. How could I debate this subject with you? You have wrapped yourself in a belief system that has no basis in reality.

What's funny is these people that worship Reagan don't even know his record. They instead superimpose what they want to believe on top of what really happened. Reagan's myth and subsequent politicians has been far more dangerous to our fiscal heath than Reagan ever was.
 

DucatiMonster696

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2009
4,269
1
71
If I was taxed at 2% I would have less incentive to upgrade systems.


You're making a very flawed point here and attempting to justify it by using your own anecdotal personal experience and via the use of over simplification.

Just as there is a limit in which you can effectively hinder or kill off job growth with taxes and legislation in a bad/good economy there is also a limit in which lowering taxes or eliminating legislation won't actually effect business growth in a booming/down economy.

However the point of my argument is we haven't yet hit that limit in lowering taxes in this down economy. Of course that's not the argument we are having here are we? The actual argument is that you believe that raising taxes will not effect the overall ability of businesses across this nation to hire people in a down economy where people aren't spending (many because they have no jobs), the dollar value has dropped significantly and fuel prices have jump upwards (and thus raised the price of doing business) and businesses aren't hiring (again because people aren't spending as much and cost more to operate in today's market).

Meanwhile if we'd follow through with your notion and were to make an attempt to hit that upper limit of taxation before we've reached the edge that completely hinders or kills off job growth in our economy it will create a trail paved in corpses (of small businesses and unrealized potential job growth that would of occurred had you've gone in the other direction) to pave the way and discover were that unknown and dangerous precipice lies.

So now taking into account the state of our economy and all the factors which are influencing the expansion of business and the ability of consumers to spend and say you were taxed at 2% would you have incentive to expand when demand is not there for you to actually be able to expand and succeed? No you wouldn't but you also would absolutely not expand if you were taxed at 40% or 80% unless there were enough demand in the economy to do so in the first place. So how do you spur on consumer demand and increase the amount of cash flow in the hands of your biggest spenders? Oh that's right you tax them less so they can spend and invest thus generating and earning more profits to continue spending and investing.
 
Last edited:

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
Notice how each peak was a bubble with a following crash that caused a recession? Mal-investment.

Sure, if you open up the slots at a casino, revenues will go up. But you'll have a lot of bankrupt pensioners because, no matter what, the house always wins.
The tax cuts didn't cause the bubble though.

And it would be an irrelevant point if they did. The question was about how lower tax rates CAN cause higher tax revenue and I proved two times via those graphs.

In BOTH cases the people who opposed the tax cuts claimed that cutting those rates would result in less income and in both cases they were proven to be wrong.

Now on the flip side is whether raising capital gains tax rates will generate more money or less money.

The answer would probably depend on how much we raise them. Raise them 1 or 2% and we probably don't see much change since it isn't enough to change peoples behaviors. But raise them 5-10% and you WILL change peoples behaviors and when that happens you risk getting less money in the long run and certainly less economic growth.

With the economy is its current state I don't think playing with tax rates is a smart thing to do period.
 
Last edited:

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
The tax cuts didn't cause the bubble though.

And it would be an irrelevant point if they did. The question was about how lower tax rates CAN cause higher tax revenue and I proved two times via those graphs.

In BOTH cases the people who opposed the tax cuts claimed that cutting those rates would result in less income and in both cases they were proven to be wrong.

Now on the flip side is whether raising capital gains tax rates will generate more money or less money.

The answer would probably depend on how much we raise them. Raise them 1 or 2% and we probably don't see much change since it isn't enough to change peoples behaviors. But raise them 5-10% and you WILL change peoples behaviors and when that happens you risk getting less money in the long run and certainly less economic growth.

With the economy is its current state I don't think playing with tax rates is a smart thing to do period.

The tax rates certainly fueled the speculative bubbles, to believe otherwise is just intellectually bankrupt. Were they the sole cause? No. But they were certainly a contributing factor, as shown by the actual relation in the graph. You yourself even said that money will follow where they can seek the most advantageous taxes. That means that they will not invest in *income* producing (GDP/wealth producing) activities since *income* is taxed higher than capital gains. They will invest in speculative bubbles, especially in places such as hedge funds where they can get access to more leverage and better investments to the exclusion of lower incomes/wealth. Is it a wonder that some of the most wealthy individuals are either hedge fund managers or hedge fund investors? Check out the Forbes 400, you'll be amazed. After all, why "work" or put your money to work in a business where it's taxed as income at 38% when you can not work and shove it into investments at 15%?

In times of stability, the receipts didn't go up. Also, as shown by the graph, the tax rates do not result in meaningful increases in tax revenues as they peak and die off relatively quickly, even without a corresponding increase in the rate itself. This shows that the rates themselves do not do much at all when cutting. If anything a benign rate environment resulted in steady growth over time in receipts, as shown from the prior years.

When they were raised in the 70s there wasn't a huge drop in receipts. If anything, the rates could go back up and stay up, maybe around 25% and you'll likely see far more stability in collections and the casino would likely subside a bit.
 
Last edited:

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Glad someone mentioned this huge 900-lb fact.

"Fact" lol. I bet you get your "facts" from Palin. You're just as intellectually bankrupt and logically challenged as she is. NonProfJohn contradicted himself, as pointed out above. But hey, keep cheerleading the village idiot(s).
 

DucatiMonster696

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2009
4,269
1
71
"Fact" lol. I bet you get your "facts" from Palin. You're just as intellectually bankrupt and logically challenged as she is. NonProfJohn contradicted himself, as pointed out above. But hey, keep cheerleading the village idiot(s).

Tax rates only played a very limited role in influencing the housing bubble and were not the bulk of blame or actual the cause of the housing bubble. Government regulation and deregulation that created lax lending standards, the feds stance and control over interest rates at the time, etc had more of an influence then the tax rate by itself.

Also hedge funds ARE investments. They are high value and thus high risk investments for those who are savvy enough to be able to invest in hedge funds. Furthermore the reason why most hedge fund investors are millionaires is because the US government requires by law that hedge fund investors to be accredit which means that investors have to earn a certain amount (aka being millionaires) of money in annual income to be allowed to invest in a hedge fund.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
That means that they will not invest in *income* producing (GDP/wealth producing) activities since *income* is taxed higher than capital gains.
So you are saying that we should lower tax rates on GDP and wealth producing investments?

Got it.
 

Doppel

Lifer
Feb 5, 2011
13,306
3
0
What's funny is these people that worship Reagan don't even know his record. They instead superimpose what they want to believe on top of what really happened. Reagan's myth and subsequent politicians has been far more dangerous to our fiscal heath than Reagan ever was.
Reagan was the best president ever, better president than Jesus would have been. You've committed treason to suggest otherwise. if only we could get another reagan the country would be once again 0% unemployment and exotic sports cars for all.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,948
126
So you are saying that we should lower tax rates on GDP and wealth producing investments?

Got it.

Its amazing how closed you are to the idea that raising taxes on the wealthy could be the correct move. In all my life i am that certain about very little and I find it appalling that you are so certain about such a complex issue in light of massive amounts of data. It's either idiocy or dishonesty.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
John's a fuckin idiot. Just look for his thread about booming economy as shit was blowing up prior to election (pimping McCain of course). I've never seen such ridicule in these forums.
 
Last edited:

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,948
126
John's a fuckin idiot. Just look for his thread about booming economy as shit was blowing up prior to election. I've never seen such ridicule in these forums.

Oh yeah I remember that doozy. :p I suggested it for nomination for the atot self ownage of the year award. It got in too :biggrin:
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
Its amazing how closed you are to the idea that raising taxes on the wealthy could be the correct move. In all my life i am that certain about very little and I find it appalling that you are so certain about such a complex issue in light of massive amounts of data. It's either idiocy or dishonesty.
And you are certain that the right course of action is to raise taxes.

Strangely there are very well respected people who agree with our side of the argument too.


The best course of action is to leave them alone until the economy recovers and then slowly raise them up in order to cut back our deficit. At the same time we need to cut back spending and implement LONG term reforms for SS and Medicare both those programs leave us all broke.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,948
126
And you are certain that the right course of action is to raise taxes.

No im not certain. But evidence and my intuition based on my own experience tell me its probably the correct thing to do.

Strangely there are very well respected people who agree with our side of the argument too.
Show us. And not just neocon think tanks whose very purpose is to obsticate issues in favor of the wealth.


The best course of action is to leave them alone until the economy recovers and then slowly raise them up in order to cut back our deficit. At the same time we need to cut back spending and implement LONG term reforms for SS and Medicare both those programs leave us all broke.
So in your own way here we have PJ advocating raising taxes on the wealthy, bravo. Its not a perfect statement but probably as close as we will ever get from the church of neocon.
 

Matt1970

Lifer
Mar 19, 2007
12,320
3
0
It is amazing how dumb they are. If you taxed me at 90% I would be moving money around like crazy. It would become a game of hot potato.

If you tax the rich at 5% or 15% then they will be less likely to move the money and take risks. Its so obvious only blue collar tea party wackjobs cant see it.

You must have fell and hit your head.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Furthermore the reason why most hedge fund investors are millionaires is because the US government requires by law that hedge fund investors to be accredit which means that investors have to earn a certain amount (aka being millionaires) of money in annual income to be allowed to invest in a hedge fund.

The requirement is $200,000 income *or* $1 million in investment assets.

That's a far cry from the amount of wealth LegendKiller is talking about.

A question to ask is, as Wall Street reportedly shifted to more money gambling than invested in the real economy, what do these hedge funds contribute?
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
126
and since they have temporarily extended them, for the 2 years as was suggested, do you agree that they should expire to help with the deficit?

(Edit: Seems that you beat me to answering the first question above - with a condition).

Edit #2: Of course, the expiration of such taxes would be right after the election of next year. It will be in play as people scream that "they will raise your taxes" at the same time beating on the deficit drums.

Also interesting (but not surprising) that you suggest that SS and Medicare need to be cut to be saved while at the same time posting that SS tax needs to be repealed on the first 20% of income. Starve the beast?
 
Last edited:

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,686
136

From your own link-

He gave a nod to the position of his former boss. "Ideally only the middle-class tax cuts would be continued for now," he wrote. "Getting a deal in Congress, though, may require keeping the high-income tax cuts, too. And that would still be worth it."

In other words, Repubs succeeded in holding the economy hostage to continued tax cuts for their fatcat donor base...

Where are those "Job Creators", anyway, and why are they using their tax cut money to create jobs in China instead of in the US?

It's for our own good, obviously, I'm sure...