May Unemployment Rises to 9.1%

[JSt0rm]

In a magical world where demand was endless and paid for by an unlimited amount of cash with no worries of inflation that may work well. In the real world it doesn't quite work that way because you can only grow as much as there is demand and spendable income around to purchase those goods and services. Mindlessly increasing the size of your business is a sure fire way of building a business made out of a deck of cards.

So then regardless of tax cuts they wont hire. Thanks for proving my point.

 

[JSt0rm]

Also businesses purchase things and make investments with money. By having a higher tax rate they would be more likely to spend that money on upgrades and things. This would have a positive effect on the economy as well.

 

[JSt0rm]

I just spent 3k upgrading a software system and I will probably spend 5k upgrading computer systems by the end of the year. I did this because I can write it off there by lowering the amount of tax I pay. My systems work now but I can afford to upgrade them so I did.

edit* Sorry I just realize I pulled a zork.

 

[DucatiMonster696]

So then regardless of tax cuts they wont hire. Thanks for proving my point.

Your point is only valid because you jumped at the conclusion that best fit your opinion:

"Businesses will not hire regardless of incentives so lets raise taxes through the roof because it feels good."

 

[DucatiMonster696]

Also businesses purchase things and make investments with money. By having a higher tax rate they would be more likely to spend that money on upgrades and things. This would have a positive effect on the economy as well.

Investments and expansions only come about when there is enough disposable capital for businesses to invest/expand to create a additional profit margin on a venture that out weighs the risk of possible failure. The only thing taxes do is discourage spending.

 

[JSt0rm]

Investments and expansions only come about when there is enough disposable capital for businesses to invest/expand to create a additional profit margin on a venture that out weighs the risk of possible failure. The only thing taxes do is discourage spending.

If I was taxed at 2% I would have less incentive to upgrade systems.

 

[JSt0rm]

Your point is only valid because you jumped at the conclusion that best fit your opinion:

"Businesses will not hire regardless of incentives so lets raise taxes through the roof because it feels good."

Thats not what I said.

 

[Jhhnn]

As a fiscal conservative, I don't have a problem paying more in taxes to get the country out of the massive hole We (the collective We) have dug for ourselves.

But like a borrower with a super sh1tty credit rating, the Fed Gov needs to prove to me before doing that they're worth the investment. And they can prove it by passing a balanced 2013-2016 budget, one that cannot be changed in regards spending vs. income, so I - and every other person they want to take more from - can see that they've done their job and will spend within their means.

Until the Fed does that, talking about taking more of my money is a non-starter. Period. They need to go get their own house in order before coming to me and mine asking for us to sacrifice. Absolutely unreal that anyone paying taxes could take a different viewpoint than that, given the behavior of the Fed Gov.

Chuck

Standard rightwing hogwash.

We're dealing with a concept of "Shared Sacrifice", remember? If those at the top aren't called upon to sacrifice in the form of taxes, what sort of sacrifice will they make?

It's clear that higher taxes and reduced expenditures are necessary. What would make anybody think Repubs would be amenable to raising taxes *after* cutting expenditures, anyway?

Shee-it, Sherlock- the Ryan plan makes it clear that they want to cut top tier taxes to nothing- zero taxes on capital gains- and to approach fiscal responsibility, maybe, at the expense of the non-Rich exclusively.

I'm quite frankly amazed and dismayed that middle class people are so well indoctrinated that they think Repub Leaders will do something other than what they said they would, or that the promised results will somehow materialize any better than they have up to this point.

Let me translate their pitch into plain English-

"Cornholio! You'll like it!"

 

[JSt0rm]

I'm quite frankly amazed and dismayed that middle class people are so well indoctrinated that they think Repub Leaders will do something other than what they said they would, or that the promised results will somehow materialize any better than they have up to this point.

Let me translate their pitch into plain English-

"Cornholio! You'll like it!"

It is amazing how dumb they are. If you taxed me at 90% I would be moving money around like crazy. It would become a game of hot potato.

If you tax the rich at 5% or 15% then they will be less likely to move the money and take risks. Its so obvious only blue collar tea party wackjobs cant see it.

 

[ProfJohn]

I just spent 3k upgrading a software system and I will probably spend 5k upgrading computer systems by the end of the year. I did this because I can write it off there by lowering the amount of tax I pay. My systems work now but I can afford to upgrade them so I did.

So you took an action in order to lower the amount of taxes that you pay.

Don't you think the rich would do the same thing if we raised their taxes??

 

[Zebo]

I just spent 3k upgrading a software system and I will probably spend 5k upgrading computer systems by the end of the year. I did this because I can write it off there by lowering the amount of tax I pay. My systems work now but I can afford to upgrade them so I did.

edit* Sorry I just realize I pulled a zork.

Best part of owning you own business is reducing your basis. I've been audited 3x all they can do is deny.

Where I've seen people get in trouble is stupid shit - like hiring illegal labor and they fall of a roof. 10 min later a lawyer is in the hospital room crawling up your ass about work comp/SS etc and contacting all agencies. GL hand cuffs are coming out.

Not declaring income - that's evasion.

etc..

But in general, tax law is very generous to business ownership just playing by the rules.

 

[JSt0rm]

So you took an action in order to lower the amount of taxes that you pay.

Yes. I spent money into the economy to lower my taxes.

*Let me edit and say that the fact I could write off the purchase weighed heavily in my decision to make the purchase. Without the ability to write it off it would be harder for me to make the choice to buy. However the choice to upgrade or not also is based on what I gain from doing so in other ways.

Don't you think the rich would do the same thing if we raised their taxes??

Wouldn't that be like the best thing to happen?

 

[JSt0rm]

Best part of owning you own business is reducing your basis. I've been audited 3x all they can do is deny.

Owning is the only way to go. It's amazing how well the system is set up for you.

 

[ProfJohn]

Wouldn't that be like the best thing to happen?

A guy making multiple millions isn't going to buy a computer in order to save a few hundred in taxes.

Instead he is going to take more drastic measures to hide his income or to place it in tax free government bonds etc.

And the higher you raise his taxes the more effort he is going to make to keep the government from taking his money and the less effort he will make to earn more.

It is a pretty simple concept. Once you hit the top tax bracket and start losing 50% of your income to taxes you start thinking of ways to pay less in taxes.

 

[ProfJohn]

Owning is the only way to go. It's amazing how well the system is set up for you.

What a hypocrite.

A system that is set up to help you is awesome.

But a system that is set up to help the rich is awful and needs to change??

 

[JSt0rm]

A guy making multiple millions isn't going to buy a computer in order to save a few hundred in taxes.

Instead he is going to take more drastic measures to hide his income or to place it in tax free government bonds etc.

And the higher you raise his taxes the more effort he is going to make to keep the government from taking his money and the less effort he will make to earn more.

It is a pretty simple concept. Once you hit the top tax bracket and start losing 50% of your income to taxes you start thinking of ways to pay less in taxes.

I think we agree on one point (people dont want to pay higher taxes) but then what we dont agree on is the effect. I think people in a high tax environment will move money around better stimulating the economy and you think people will hoard it somewhere and not spend it or invest it?

I am only a expert in one thing and its not finance. From your previous posts I dont regard you an expert on this subject either. So lets wait for someone like LK to weigh in if he so chooses.

 

[JSt0rm]

What a hypocrite.

A system that is set up to help you is awesome.

But a system that is set up to help the rich is awful and needs to change??

The systems are one and the same. You are indoctrinated into the religion of Reagan. How could I debate this subject with you? You have wrapped yourself in a belief system that has no basis in reality.

 

[ProfJohn]

You don't need an expert. You just need to look at history.

In the 70s the top rate was 70%.
Reagan dropped that rate to 50%.

And yet we raised more money with the lower rate than the higher rate, why?

 

[Zebo]

Owning is the only way to go. It's amazing how well the system is set up for you.

Wait till you get big...you can't get rid of the money fast enough....have to buy a race car & 20" trailer and everything in it to advertise your company..

 

[fskimospy]

You don't need an expert. You just need to look at history.

In the 70s the top rate was 70%.
Reagan dropped that rate to 50%.

And yet we raised more money with the lower rate than the higher rate, why?

Are you seriously attempting to say that the tax cuts increased revenues?

 

[Zebo]

You don't need an expert. You just need to look at history.

In the 70s the top rate was 70%.
Reagan dropped that rate to 50%.

And yet we raised more money with the lower rate than the higher rate, why?

Dude he raised other taxes like cap gains from 20 to 33. He also got rid of lots of deductions. And you also ignore flooding economy with an extra 4 trillion.

It's easy to raise revue if you give people 4 trillion to spend, problem is you gotta pay it back.

 

[BansheeX]

It's funny how Americans today are welfare warfare idiots who think the solution to everything is doing the easiest thing possible: print money and throw it at people. Good luck with that, morons. Threats of a shutdown over 1% of the deficit? Don't even bother trying to fix this shit, it's just spitting in the ocean at this point.

 

[LegendKiller]

I think we agree on one point (people dont want to pay higher taxes) but then what we dont agree on is the effect. I think people in a high tax environment will move money around better stimulating the economy and you think people will hoard it somewhere and not spend it or invest it?

I am only a expert in one thing and its not finance. From your previous posts I dont regard you an expert on this subject either. So lets wait for someone like LK to weigh in if he so chooses.

The whole taxable vs non-taxable bond thing is a little silly. In an ideal situation the differential between the two investments, all else being equal, will be equal with or without the taxation. A non-taxable bond will yield less, roughly the yield of a taxable bond minus the tax rate. This has been the rough equiv. throughout history.

More taxation and slightly more inflation results in higher velocity of money and more spending, especially with higher taxation at the higher tax brackets.

At the higher tax brackets the less taxation for investments the more investments, especially non-GDP producing investments are made. The wealthy have less incentive to spend the additional dollar or invest it in business, mainly because they really "get" nothing from it. They invest it more in the stock market casino or in hedge funds, many of which really aren't VCs but are more PEs or LBO driven strategies. The worst are commodity centric funds which really fucks the lower class three times. The first by aggregating wealth, the second by not investing in GDP producing activities, the last by generating inflation in sectors which are actually regressive, like every-day life commodities.

It's why, overall, tax cuts to the wealthy result in less GDP multiplier vs other stimulus at the bottom-end or the middle class. Don't tell that to supply-siders though.

 

[ProfJohn]

Are you seriously attempting to say that the tax cuts increased revenues?

That is what history tells us.
Here is a nice chart for you.

There was a capital gains tax cut in 2003

Here is an even better chart

Notice how revenue went up when rates went down??

 

[LegendKiller]

That is what history tells us.
Here is a nice chart for you.

There was a capital gains tax cut in 2003

Here is an even better chart

Notice how revenue went up when rates went down??

Notice how each peak was a bubble with a following crash that caused a recession? Mal-investment.

Sure, if you open up the slots at a casino, revenues will go up. But you'll have a lot of bankrupt pensioners because, no matter what, the house always wins.