Matrix Reloaded: What is the real world? WARNING SPOILERS

[Looney]

actually nm...he was still breathing wasn't he?

Yes, he was still alive... he was on a table beside Bane.

 

[TheBoyBlunder]

I'm just going to wait until november. Otherwise I won't stop thinking about it and it'll drive me nuts.

 

[jinduy]

yeah maybe with that abrupt disconnect, his virtual body in zion could be running in an infinite loop :Q

 

[Looney]

Originally posted by: TheBoyBlunder
I'm just going to wait until november. Otherwise I won't stop thinking about it and it'll drive me nuts.

Yeah, i'm glad it's coming out in November.. and not every year like LOTR. I didn't even give it much thought until today... i thought it was pretty obvious that Zion reality was just another Matrix until we talked about it.

 

[TerryMathews]

Originally posted by: Moralpanic
How can he? Brains are a function of synapses... you're telling me, somehow a program was able to completely rewired a real brain so that it function like Smith? Remember when he was able to st ab Neo in Zion... he said 'we'll be seeing you'. I don't think a program can rewire a real physical brain... unless the physical brain was really nothing but another program.

I think the implication is that the human brain is another computer and the 'consciousness' is a program that runs on that computer. Not necessairly an incorrect analogy. Since Smith is acting as a computer virus now, he 'overwrote' Bane's consciousness with his own AI.

 

[Looney]

Originally posted by: TerryMathews

Originally posted by: Moralpanic
How can he? Brains are a function of synapses... you're telling me, somehow a program was able to completely rewired a real brain so that it function like Smith? Remember when he was able to st ab Neo in Zion... he said 'we'll be seeing you'. I don't think a program can rewire a real physical brain... unless the physical brain was really nothing but another program.

I think the implication is that the human brain is another computer and the 'consciousness' is a program that runs on that computer. Not necessairly an incorrect analogy. Since Smith is acting as a computer virus now, he 'overwrote' Bane's consciousness with his own AI.

Yeah, i guess this is possible... but i still think that would be too far of a stretch for a computer program to be able to take over a real conscious human. I think a better explanation would be that the Zion world was just another Matrix, and Smith overtook Bane just like any agent is able to overtake another human in the Matrix.

 

[theNEOone]

Originally posted by: TerryMathews

Originally posted by: Moralpanic
How can he? Brains are a function of synapses... you're telling me, somehow a program was able to completely rewired a real brain so that it function like Smith? Remember when he was able to st ab Neo in Zion... he said 'we'll be seeing you'. I don't think a program can rewire a real physical brain... unless the physical brain was really nothing but another program.

I think the implication is that the human brain is another computer and the 'consciousness' is a program that runs on that computer. Not necessairly an incorrect analogy. Since Smith is acting as a computer virus now, he 'overwrote' Bane's consciousness with his own AI.

also, realize that if the machines are sophisticated enough to create a computer program (the matrix) capable of enslaving minds, i don't think it too far off to consider the possibility of programs "overwriting" memory and other brain functions.

and also consider another possibility. perhaps smith trying to jack in through the phone line cause some sort of glitch that manifested itself biologically. it might not be that the human was completely rewired. perhaps he just acquired some physchological disorder. consider that many individuals w/ schizophrenia and multiple personality disorders commit murders and crimes, claiming to be under direction of "voices in their head".

that being said, i've watched reloaded 5 times, the original matrix 4 additional times (after watching reloaded), and thought about it for more hours than anyone can imagine. i'm convinced that, although the matrix w/in a matrix idea is plausible, there are a number of possibilities that are equally plausible if one only pics and chooses his reasoning for believing the idea. with all the evidence going for it, i can probably think of at least 3 reasons (based on details from the movie) why the matrix w/in a matrix idea is not the correct one. i've come to the point where i'm not accepting any particular interpration - i'm simply open to the possiblity of different scenarios. i also realize that, if the wachowski brothers continue their trend, we'll be blind-sided by a completely unexpected conclusion.

 

[Looney]

Originally posted by: theNEOone

Originally posted by: TerryMathews

Originally posted by: Moralpanic
How can he? Brains are a function of synapses... you're telling me, somehow a program was able to completely rewired a real brain so that it function like Smith? Remember when he was able to st ab Neo in Zion... he said 'we'll be seeing you'. I don't think a program can rewire a real physical brain... unless the physical brain was really nothing but another program.

I think the implication is that the human brain is another computer and the 'consciousness' is a program that runs on that computer. Not necessairly an incorrect analogy. Since Smith is acting as a computer virus now, he 'overwrote' Bane's consciousness with his own AI.

also, realize that if the machines are sophisticated enough to create a computer program (the matrix) capable of enslaving minds, i don't think it too far off to consider the possibility of programs "overwriting" memory and other brain functions.

That's true... but Smith is just another program within the Matrix. He has a simple role, to root out people that 'wake up'. He isn't like the Architetch, who is omniscient.

and also consider another possibility. perhaps smith trying to jack in through the phone line cause some sort of glitch that manifested itself biologically. it might not be that the human was completely rewired. perhaps he just acquired some physchological disorder. consider that many individuals w/ schizophrenia and multiple personality disorders commit murders and crimes, claiming to be under direction of "voices in their head".

Ah, but the psychological disorders you know could just be a fault of the Matrix itself... just like ghosts, psychic powers, etc are nothing but glitches in the Matrix... perhaps multiple personalities and schizophrenia are the same glitches.

that being said, i've watched reloaded 5 times, the original matrix 4 additional times (after watching reloaded), and thought about it for more hours than anyone can imagine. i'm convinced that, although the matrix w/in a matrix idea is plausible, there are a number of possibilities that are equally plausible if one only pics and chooses his reasoning for believing the idea. with all the evidence going for it, i can probably think of at least 3 reasons (based on details from the movie) why the matrix w/in a matrix idea is not the correct one. i've come to the point where i'm not accepting any particular interpration - i'm simply open to the possiblity of different scenarios. i also realize that, if the wachowski brothers continue their trend, we'll be blind-sided by a completely unexpected conclusion.

What are these 3 reasons?

 

[RACER]

Then how would you explain Zion being destroyed 5 times before? Now, granted this fact is only worth talking about if and only if the Architect was telling the truth. (Don't see why even a lie would be introduced).

 

[RACER]

Originally posted by: Moralpanic

that being said, i've watched reloaded 5 times, the original matrix 4 additional times (after watching reloaded), and thought about it for more hours than anyone can imagine. i'm convinced that, although the matrix w/in a matrix idea is plausible, there are a number of possibilities that are equally plausible if one only pics and chooses his reasoning for believing the idea. with all the evidence going for it, i can probably think of at least 3 reasons (based on details from the movie) why the matrix w/in a matrix idea is not the correct one. i've come to the point where i'm not accepting any particular interpration - i'm simply open to the possiblity of different scenarios. i also realize that, if the wachowski brothers continue their trend, we'll be blind-sided by a completely unexpected conclusion.

What are these 3 reasons?

yeah... what are they?

 

[Looney]

Originally posted by: RACER
Then how would you explain Zion being destroyed 5 times before? Now, granted this fact is only worth talking about if and only if the Architect was telling the truth. (Don't see why even a lie would be introduced).

Why would this contradict the Matrix within a Matrix theory?

Zion is needed to be destroyed because they need to 'restart' the Matrix... now, why do they NEED Neo to participate in this? I think it's because with every generation of 'The One', they learn a bit more about human behaviors... you remember the Architech said they were going to re-integrate Neo into the Matrix, and learn what's he learned. Also, Zion is required to set up the next cycle of people that wake up, and eventually the next 'the One' (the role of the Oracle is also part of this). Was Zion really destroyed every time? If it was, then is Zion always in the same place? If it was, then there must be evidence from previous Zions that the people would be clued in too... but they haven't. They've always thought they were the first. Morpheus in M1, said that the first 'One' was the one that freed them... but that first 'One' was nothing but a previous Neo, that had to choose 26 people to populate Zion.

 

[Looney]

Hmmm. i guess that fact that Zion was destroyed 5 times previously would also make sense as to why Zion is just another Matrix. If it was a real reality, wouldn't people see evidence of a previous Zion? Only if it was another Matrix, that the machines can control and erase properly, can they destroy all evidence of previous Zions.

 

[Looney]

Nobody has any theories on this? Like how Neo was able to stop those Sentinels? One theory from my friend was that somehow going to the Architech, changed him... remember that Link was not able to identify him when he left to save Trinity? But that doesn't make sense in the Zion world... he doesn't exactly have an antenna sticking out of his head, so how would he be able to stop those Sents?

 

[theNEOone]

Ah, but the psychological disorders you know could just be a fault of the Matrix itself... just like ghosts, psychic powers, etc are nothing but glitches in the Matrix... perhaps multiple personalities and schizophrenia are the same glitches

yah, but ghosts, vampires, big foots, etc. are not things that are said to exist in our real world. they are the things of horror stories and fiction novels - rumors and superstitions not properly documented. that's why i think the wachowski brothers chose to call them glitches. (i don't remember the oracle saying that psychic poweres were caused by glitches, though) phsychological disorders, however, are extensively studied, documented, and characterized. anyway, the bottom line is that we have to draw a line between the matrix and reality somwhere. we can discredit many theories by simply introducing corollaries like the one you mentioned.

What are these 3 reasons?

(1) the most important reason is the impinging war on zion. why send 250,000 sentinals, tunnel 4km into the earth, and spend countless hours to solve a problem that could be solved in a much easier fashion
(2) when neo's back in the real world (at the end) just before he pwns the sentinals, he says "something feels different." he then proceeds to kick some sentinel ass. also remember that in the room w/ the architect, neo chose the "wrong" door, yet the architect didn't seem at all perturbed. this led me to believe that the second door was actually a fail safe implented in case the One made the "wrong" decision. he would be confined in his own "private" matrix where he couldn't cause havok to the real system, and where he couldn't return to the real world to warn the remaining humans. realize how neo was able to sense that he was still inside a program ("something feels different"). if zion was inside a second matrix, it seems to me that neo would sense this also.
(3) people are able to escape from the original matrix. why not the second matrix? 1% of 250,000 is still enough. where are the trinities and neo's running on walls and jumping huge distances in zion? the argument that "the second matrix is more secure" doesn't fly here. why not make the original matrix as secure then? the whole point is to keep humans under control.

then there are logistical concerns:
-a matrix w/in a matrix will probably be too much to cover in just one movie
-the wachowski bros. seem to like surprises. the matrix w/in a matrix idea seems too obvious
-most importantly, it would be completely lame for it to be a matrix within a matrix


edit:

Hmmm. i guess that fact that Zion was destroyed 5 times previously would also make sense as to why Zion is just another Matrix. If it was a real reality, wouldn't people see evidence of a previous Zion? Only if it was another Matrix, that the machines can control and erase properly, can they destroy all evidence of previous Zions.

this ojection is only a concern if zion is rebuilt in the same spot every time. earth is a big place, so i don't see any reason to assume that zion is rebuilt in the same place every single time.

also,in the first matrix, when neo takes his first ride in the nebuchazzer, trinity explains how the tunnels underground used to be cities that spanned miles. these "cities" may have been previous locations of zion.

 

[Thraxen]

Nobody has any theories on this? Like how Neo was able to stop those Sentinels?

I tend to agree with your theory. If Zion is not another part of the Matrix and is indeed the real world, then when Neo stops the Sentinels the movie has taken an X-Men like turn with Neo having inhuman powers. I really hope that's not the case because I think it would be a bit of a ridiculous path for the Matrix story to take. Unless someone can supply another reasonable explanation for his ability to stop the Sentinels, then I'm going to cling to the over-Matrix theory.

 

[Looney]

(1) the most important reason is the impinging war on zion. why send 250,000 sentinals, tunnel 4km into the earth, and spend countless hours to solve a problem that could be solved in a much easier fashion

Because it is the threat of the destruction of mankind that influences The One to choose the right door. Also remember, if Zion is just another Matrix... then it's just more programs running... it's not actual tunnelling that's going on.

(2) when neo's back in the real world (at the end) just before he pwns the sentinals, he says "something feels different." he then proceeds to kick some sentinel ass. also remember that in the room w/ the architect, neo chose the "wrong" door, yet the architect didn't seem at all perturbed. this led me to believe that the second door was actually a fail safe implented in case the One made the "wrong" decision. he would be confined in his own "private" matrix where he couldn't cause havok to the real system, and where he couldn't return to the real world to warm the remaining humans.

So you're saying that when he went through that 2nd door in the Architech room, that he was then placed in his own Matrix... that was a population of just him? That the Trinity he saved, was just a fabrication of the Matrix? That the Zion he woke up to, was just a fabrication?

realize how neo was able to sense that he was still inside a program ("something feels different"). if zion was inside a second matrix, it seems to me that neo would sense this also

Exactly!!! In the end, he was finally able to sense he was still inside another program.. a Matrix within a Matrix!!! He didn't sense it earlier, because he wasn't led to believe this. He woke up to Zion Matrix, and believed it was real. It was only when he met the Architech, and that the truth was revealed to him... that he was just an analomy of the Matrix... that there were previous The Ones, and they all chose to save humankind by choosing the 1st door, etc... after he met the Architech, THEN he realized the truth.

 

[Looney]

Originally posted by: Thraxen

Nobody has any theories on this? Like how Neo was able to stop those Sentinels?

I tend to agree with your theory. If Zion is not another part of the Matrix and is indeed the real world, then when Neo stops the Sentinels the movie has taken an X-Men like turn with Neo having inhuman powers. I really hope that's not the case because I think it would be a bit of a ridiculous path for the Matrix story to take. Unless someone can supply another reasonable explanation for his ability to stop the Sentinels, then I'm going to cling to the over-Matrix theory.

I don't believe that's what happening either. It would be silly to have him have psychic powers... when psychic powers were all due to glitches in the Matrix (remember M1, when he first went to see the Oracle).

Also in M2, remember the kid that gives him the spoon... i bet you any money that in M3, he's going to bend that same spoon again to prove that he's within another Matrix.

 

[theNEOone]

Originally posted by: Moralpanic

(1) the most important reason is the impinging war on zion. why send 250,000 sentinals, tunnel 4km into the earth, and spend countless hours to solve a problem that could be solved in a much easier fashion

Because it is the threat of the destruction of mankind that influences The One to choose the right door.

i think i didn't make my point clear enough. the attack that the machines decided to take was extremely elaborate. it was necessary, however, to avoid zion's perimeter defenses (massive gates, insane firepower, and let's not forget the mechs!). if zion was inside a matrix, the machines could just prance right through the gates by initiating some sory of gate malfunction, while at the same time causing guns and mechs to misfire. we saw such a manipulation of the matrix in the first movie, where neo's mouth was "seemingly" shut by his lips morphing together. you'd still have the illusion of an attack (to influence the one's decision), but you wouldn't have all the needless tunnelling, etc. realize also that you really wouldn't have to have such an obvious threat to influence the one. i'm sure the architect could simply explain that, if the one didn't reload the matrix, the machines would pwn zion. that would be enough motivation i think.

So you're saying that when he went through that 2nd door in the Architech room, that he was then placed in his own Matrix... that was a population of just him? That the Trinity he saved, was just a fabrication of the Matrix? That the Zion he woke up to, was just a fabrication?

yes. do you really think that the architect would let him get away so easily? we're talking about millions of humans that are going to die because of the "system malfunction", and a huge loss in energy for the machines. i'm pretty sure they engineered a fail safe.

Exactly!!! In the end, he was finally able to sense he was still inside another program.. a Matrix within a Matrix!!! He didn't sense it earlier, because he wasn't led to believe this. He woke up to Zion Matrix, and believed it was real. It was only when he met the Architech, and that the truth was revealed to him... that he was just an analomy of the Matrix... that there were previous The Ones, and they all chose to save humankind by choosing the 1st door, etc... after he met the Architech, THEN he realized the truth.

i really don't think that anything the architect said would lead neo to believe that he was in a matrix w/in a matrix. can you imagine? he's just now coming to grips with the fact that everything morpheus, the oracle, etc. had told him was wrong. you think that aside from assimilating all this information (and at the same time worrying about trinity dieing) he somehow worked out the possibility of a matrix within a matrix??? i doubt it. that being said, if zion was a matrix within a matrix, neo (and others) would have sensed it. and like a said, where are the 1% of humans within the zion matrix that escaped? shouldn't we be seeing them doing crazy acrobatics and kungfu?!?!

 

[Thraxen]

i doubt it. that being said, if zion was a matrix within a matrix, neo (and others) would have sensed it. and like a said, where are the 1% of humans within the zion matrix that escaped? shouldn't we be seeing them doing crazy acrobatics and kungfu?!?!

But that's the point. Zion is set-up to make those that figure the Matrix out think they have escaped to the real world. So they wouldn't know that they could do those things there. Same things goes for why they haven't sensed it yet...but Neo does sense it at the end of the movie! Do you have any other explanation for why Neo could stop the Sentinels? I agree with you that we could be blind-sided by an explanation in the 3rd movie that none of us have thought of yet, but right now, I think Zion just being another part of the Matrix is the only reasonable explanation for Neo's powers outside.

 

[Looney]

i think i didn't make my point clear enough. the attack that the machines decided to take was extremely elaborate. it was necessary, however, to avoid zion's perimeter defenses (massive gates, insane firepower, and let's not forget the mechs!). if zion was inside a matrix, the machines could just prance right through the gates by initiating some sory of gate malfunction, while at the same time causing guns and mechs to misfire. we saw such a manipulation of the matrix in the first movie, where neo's mouth was "seemingly" shut by his lips morphing together. you'd still have the illusion of an attack (to influence the one's decision), but you wouldn't have all the needless tunnelling, etc. realize also that you really wouldn't have to have such an obvious threat to influence the one. i'm sure the architect could simply explain that, if the one didn't reload the matrix, the machines would pwn zion. that would be enough motivation i think.

But the machines are still limited by the laws of the Matrix. Just like they were limited in what they could do in the real Matrix, they're limited in what they could do in the Zion Matrix. Again like i edited it... the tunnelling ect, since it's just another Matrix, is all but another program... that isn't as much work as you might imagine.

yes. do you really think that the architect would let him get away so easily? we're talking about millions of humans that are going to die because of the "system malfunction", and a huge loss in energy for the machines. i'm pretty sure they engineered a fail safe.

The architetch doesn't have any control over Neo... not directly anyways. He's out of the program, he's 'aware' of reality. That's the purpose of the Oracle and Zion. By having Zion, those that wake up are led to believe they've really woken up, and can focus all their energy on what they believe is the Matrix. When they wake up, they'll have a place to stay, and a purpose to life... even though it may all be an illusion. The Oracle's purpose is to guide those that have woken up... and to guide The One. Even though she appears to be on their side, inreality she's on the Machine side, guiding the One back to the Source to reset the Matrix.

i really don't think that anything the architect said would lead neo to believe that he was in a matrix w/in a matrix. can you imagine? he's just now coming to grips with the fact that everything morpheus, the oracle, etc. had told him was wrong. you think that aside from assimilating all this information (and at the same time worrying about trinity dieing) he somehow worked out the possibility of a matrix within a matrix???

He did it in the first Matrix... it took some time, but when he died, it was when he realized the truth of reality. In M2, it was when all hope was lost, when he finally realized the truth of Zion's reality.

i doubt it. that being said, if zion was a matrix within a matrix, neo (and others) would have sensed it. and like a said, where are the 1% of humans within the zion matrix that escaped? shouldn't we be seeing them doing crazy acrobatics and kungfu?!?!

No, because they don't realize it's another Matrix... they really believe it's the real world, so function within it's 'physical' laws. I bet in M3, when Neo returns to Zion after waking up for real this time, that he will bend the spoon again... and show them all that Zion is simply another Matrix. Remember when he was trying to explain to Morpheus near the end, that the Matrix as they know it, was not the first... but actually had 5 before it.. and Morpheus didn't believe him? It's hard for people to accept the nature of reality... especially adults... just like Morpheus said in M1, they normally don't take people as old as Neo and 'free' them. I think it's going to take something drastic, like Neo bending the spoon, to convince all of them.

 

[theNEOone]

Originally posted by: Thraxen

i doubt it. that being said, if zion was a matrix within a matrix, neo (and others) would have sensed it. and like a said, where are the 1% of humans within the zion matrix that escaped? shouldn't we be seeing them doing crazy acrobatics and kungfu?!?!

But that's the point. Zion is set-up to make those that figure the Matrix out think they have escaped to the real world. So they wouldn't know that they could do those things there. Same things goes for why they haven't sensed it yet...but Neo does sense it at the end of the movie! Do you have any other explanation for why Neo could stop the Sentinels? I agree with you that we could be blind-sided by an explanation in the 3rd movie that none of us have thought of yet, but right now, I think Zion just being another part of the Matrix is the only reasonable explanation for Neo's powers outside.

i see where your argument is coming from. but remember that when people are in the matrix, they believe that they are in the real world. they are absolutely oblivious to the truth. however, neo still felt that there was something wrong w/ the world - even before being contacted by trinity and morpheus, etc. my point is that accpeting the matrix programming is not an active choice. for 1% of the population, the code of the matrix is not sufficient for control. therefore, regardless of what people in zion actually believed, (if it's true that zion is in a second matrix) then 1% of them would unconsciously feel that something was "wrong".

 

[Looney]

Originally posted by: theNEOone

Originally posted by: Thraxen

i doubt it. that being said, if zion was a matrix within a matrix, neo (and others) would have sensed it. and like a said, where are the 1% of humans within the zion matrix that escaped? shouldn't we be seeing them doing crazy acrobatics and kungfu?!?!

But that's the point. Zion is set-up to make those that figure the Matrix out think they have escaped to the real world. So they wouldn't know that they could do those things there. Same things goes for why they haven't sensed it yet...but Neo does sense it at the end of the movie! Do you have any other explanation for why Neo could stop the Sentinels? I agree with you that we could be blind-sided by an explanation in the 3rd movie that none of us have thought of yet, but right now, I think Zion just being another part of the Matrix is the only reasonable explanation for Neo's powers outside.

i see where your argument is coming from. but remember that when people are in the matrix, they believe that they are in the real world. they are absolutely oblivious to the truth. however, neo still felt that there was something wrong w/ the world - even before being contacted by trinity and morpheus, etc. my point is that accpeting the matrix programming is not an active choice. for 1% of the population, the code of the matrix is not sufficient for control. therefore, regardless of what people in zion actually believed, (if it's true that zion is in a second matrix) then 1% of them would unconsciously feel that something was "wrong".

Ahhh, i see where you're going with this. That's true.... but that still wouldn't explain all the other events that i pointed out in my first 2 posts. This could just be a shortsightedness on the Wacko brother's part.

EDIT: you know what... the percentage of people that woke up in the normal Matrix is much less than 1% though. It was VERY small, and most were kids. By the time they were adults, most just pushed those feelings they had as kids aside and labelled them as superstition or abnormal experiences. Not everybody in Zion was woken up. Remember how they said they woke up more people in the past 6 months than they have in the past 6 years? So it's a very rare event. Those that were in Zion, were mostly adults... so they probably would push any 'odd' feelings they had as just abnormal experience or something. Neo waking up, is that VERY rare individual that realized the true nature of the Zion reality.

 

[theNEOone]

Ahhh, i see where you're going with this. That's true.... but that still wouldn't explain all the other events that i pointed out in my first 2 posts. This could just be a shortsightedness on the Wacko brother's part.

well i did mention some possibilities. briefly:

1) Agent Smith took over Bane... how else could he affect Bane in the real world, unless it was actually another Matrix?

shizophrenia/multiple personality disorder?

2) Neo stopped the Sentinels in the end... how else could he stop them, unless it was another Matrix that he 'woke up to'... remember his last words... something like 'this feels different'. I believe he begins to see the real world for what it is... another Matrix.

instead of seing the world as another matrix, maybe he realizes that he trapped in his own "private matrix." he chooses the "wrong door" w/ the architect, so the machines exercise a level of control by engineering a fail safe mechanism

3) He doesn't wake up after he stops the Sentinels... i believe that's because he finally woke up for real... in the REAL world.

it might be that he's woken up from the private matrix. if so, i see no value in showing the final "coma scene" other than misleading the audience and keep them guessing until the next movie.

4)remember the room with the Architect? How else could those screens show things in the 'real' world, unless it was just another Matrix?

i don't really understand what you're getting at here.

5)Zion was destroyed 5 times previously. If that were so, wouldn't there be some sort of evidence of previous Zions?

zion is built in a different location. also, trinity mentions the underground tunnels which used to connect cities in the first matrix. these cities may have been previous locations of zion



anyway, my whole point in thinking of this objections was to open my eyes to a different possibility. i've seen the movie 5 times, and each time i see it i find even more evidence that zion is actually inside a second matrix. however, every time i see it i also pick up details that support other possibilities. i have therefore given up on trying to predict what version is the actual truth.

 

[theNEOone]

you know what... the percentage of people that woke up in the normal Matrix is much less than 1% though. It was VERY small, and most were kids. By the time they were adults, most just pushed those feelings they had as kids aside and labelled them as superstition or abnormal experiences. Not everybody in Zion was woken up. Remember how they said they woke up more people in the past 6 months than they have in the past 6 years? So it's a very rare event. Those that were in Zion, were mostly adults... so they probably would push any 'odd' feelings they had as just abnormal experience or something. Neo waking up, is that VERY rare individual that realized the true nature of the Zion reality.

hmm, i don't think so. the original matrix has a population of several million - not the 6+ billion that actually exist in real life. therefore, 1% of say, 20 million, is 200,000. add 50,000 born within zion and you got your population right there. anyway, i really don't think we should be arguing on this because it's not really supported by any "facts" from the movie. they are just very loose interprations.

 

[Looney]

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1) Agent Smith took over Bane... how else could he affect Bane in the real world, unless it was actually another Matrix?
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shizophrenia/multiple personality disorder?

Schizophrenia and multiple personality are due to chemical inbalances... can a program affect such physical features? I don't know. Personally, i believe that schizphrenia and multiple personalites are just glitches in the Matrix... same as ghosts, and psychic powers. I know you don't like this answer though...

instead of seing the world as another matrix, maybe he realizes that he trapped in his own "private matrix." he chooses the "wrong door" w/ the architect, so the machines exercise a level of control by engineering a fail safe mechanism

I guess they could do this... but how would his dream of Trinity fit into this? Did the machines somehow read his dreams while he was in Zion reality, and created the a Neo only reality where he gets to save Trinity... Trinity that is falling like the one in his Zion dream? I think this actually is a 6th reason why Zion is another Matrix... how else would he have a prophecy of what's happening, unless he was in another Matrix. Remember, psychic powers and premonitions are just glitches in the Matrix... how would you explain his prophecy of Trinity unless it was another Matrix.

And Zion IS the fail safe machanism... it's there so that when Neo wakes up, and reaches the source... he can sacrifice himself, and save all humanity.

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4)remember the room with the Architect? How else could those screens show things in the 'real' world, unless it was just another Matrix?
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i don't really understand what you're getting at here.

When he's at the Source with the Architech... on the hundreds of screens that are around him... some of the screens show stuff that are happening in Zion reality. How can it show what's happening in Zion reality unless it was another Matrix that the Architech can access? The Architech is solely a program within the Matrix... he can't access the real world... unless the real world was another Matrix.

zion is built in a different location. also, trinity mentions the underground tunnels which used to connect cities in the first matrix. these cities may have been previous locations of zion

Yeah i guess this could be true... but then wouldn't somebody have discovered one of these ruins before? And wouldn't it be a pain in the ass for the machines to recreate Zion everytime? Becuase obviously 26 people can't create an entire city.