Massachusetts Question 1: Eliminate the State Income Tax

[Wreckem]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: BeauJangles

Personally, I think eliminating the state income tax isn't a good idea.

First, the state would try to make it up in other ways, probably by raising property taxes like crazy which would hurt retirees and the elderly.

Second, lower income households would barely get any money back and would lose services and benefits that many of them need.

Third, the state would slash municipal aid, which would hurt everybody.

Oh my how does Tennesse and the other states without income tax survive? :roll:

States without income taxes dont offer that many services to its people. And the servies they do offer are piss poor. MA is awash in massive social programs and is running large deficits with the income tax.

Compare where MA ranks with states they dont have income taxes. It ranks 20+ spots higher than its closest competitor on most issues.

 

[Wreckem]

Originally posted by: bozack

Originally posted by: techs

I wouldnt be averse to a higher sales tax to offset the cost of getting rid of income tax
Here in Vermont and New Hampshire we would love for you to have like a 12-14 percent sales tax in Massachusettes. So go for it.

You're from VT or NH? either one would explain alot...how many teeth do you have left techs?

And your post shows just how dense one can be...sales tax is 5% now and excludes food and clothing...at most we would see a jump to 8% on everything...big whoop, still wouldn't be worth my gas to drive up to the colon of the NE New Hampshire, let alone trek to nothingville VT...

Uh you think a minor bump in sales tax will offset HUGE losses in revenue from income taxes? It would not. If the people of MA dont want an income tax, they better feel comfortable losing alot of social programs, and subsidies on certain things.

 

[Wreckem]

Originally posted by: bozack

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
And their property taxes are a lot higher than here. You think the sales tax is the only thing that would go up and cover the loss of a state income tax? You sound very naive.

Being a home owner in WA where there is no state income tax. Sales tax was 8.5%. Auto fees were higher. Auto excise tax was higher. Selling my house there I learned that the excise tax was more than triple that in MA costs me thousands of dollars. And with all of that, the state provides horrible services.

Our prop tax would probabily go up a bit as well but it is already high so I view that as a small price to pay....plus services in this state suck as badly as the next, the roads blow and schools are only as good as the town you live in...

On the whole MA has vastly better services than states, like Florida, TX, Tennesse. Etc.

 

[Wreckem]

Originally posted by: OFFascist
Texas, Washington, Alaska, and a few others seem to get by okay without a state income tax.

Massachsetts should join the club.

Have you been to Texas? Do you know anything about Texas?

Social Services are next to zero. We have a near bankrupt State Department of Transportation, most rankings put TX in the low 40's(out of 50 states ya know) on most social issues(education, child healthcare, healthcare for the poor, etc, etc).

 

[BeauJangles]

Originally posted by: Wreckem

Originally posted by: bozack

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
And their property taxes are a lot higher than here. You think the sales tax is the only thing that would go up and cover the loss of a state income tax? You sound very naive.

Being a home owner in WA where there is no state income tax. Sales tax was 8.5%. Auto fees were higher. Auto excise tax was higher. Selling my house there I learned that the excise tax was more than triple that in MA costs me thousands of dollars. And with all of that, the state provides horrible services.

Our prop tax would probabily go up a bit as well but it is already high so I view that as a small price to pay....plus services in this state suck as badly as the next, the roads blow and schools are only as good as the town you live in...

On the whole MA has vastly better services than states, like Florida, TX, Tennesse. Etc.

Agreed, MA provides a lot of valuable services to its population and, while the state does have a reputation for high taxes, I think it is more middle-of-the-road now than it used to be in terms of tax burden.

The roads here suck, no argument, but cutting the income tax isn't going to magically fix that. Instead, getting the legislature to not waste money on things universal healthcare mandate and instead focus on putting money back into the roads will yield better results.

 

[TAZZ63]

You know I don't see any of these services that Mass offers because I earn to much, even though I'm just getting by, wife and two kids. Yet the people who are in this state that have never worked a day in there life have access to more services than me. I'm tired of footing the bill for everyone else and getting nothing in return except more of my hard earned money taken away. The state could do just fine with no tax, maybee the governor could trade in his caddy and get something more fuel efficent. There's alot of fat this state could trim.

 

[Capt Caveman]

Originally posted by: TAZZ63
You know I don't see any of these services that Mass offers because I earn to much, even though I'm just getting by, wife and two kids. Yet the people who are in this state that have never worked a day in there life have access to more services than me. I'm tired of footing the bill for everyone else and getting nothing in return except more of my hard earned money taken away. The state could do just fine with no tax, maybee the governor could trade in his caddy and get something more fuel efficent. There's alot of fat this state could trim.

Do your children go to public schools? You know state income tax money goes back to the towns/cities to subsidize a number of educational items(building of schools, teacher salaries, etc).

If you actually do a little research, you'll find that you use a lot of services.

Or you could just move to NH. But then you'd cry that they lack in police/fire/school systems/etc and you pay to much in property taxes, fees, etc...

 

[Ernie133]

MA has very good services and programs and that's WHY I'm voting YES on question #1. I've lived here in MA my whole life and know at least a dozen people that collect "disability", by convincing a doctor that they have a medical condition the state "pays" them every month for NOT WORKING. Most of the people I know work on the side anyway and since the passage of the insurance law they get free insurance too, their benefits are never reviewed once they are considered "disabled". Another program I'd like to see cut by limiting the funds available to government; State workers pensions and insurance coverage, I met a guy in a bar a couple of weeks ago, he was proud to tell me (a total stranger) that he is working TWO state jobs to increase his pension, he figured he could retire at 52 and then get a full time job (state job?) until he is 62. State workers pension include health insurance for a nominal contribution FOR LIFE. The legislature just voted down a $3 BILLION bill to increase State Judges pension plan. The only reason it was voted down was this question on the ballot. Most state and city workers only pay 10% toward their health insurance; I pay closer to 40% in the private sector what gives?
Property taxes CAN NOT go up more than 2.5% per year by law. I receive most of my "services" from local government, schools, police, fire, snow removal etc. The state has cut funding to the towns by millions (back to 2002 levels) most towns are reeling and laying off teachers and police and fire because of it. I would rather be able to more fully participate in decisions where my money is spent, if I have the extra $3500.00 a year in my paycheck I will be much more likely to vote YES on overrides to property taxes and one time expenditures at the local level for services I deem worthy. All this money going to Federal and States ties the hands of local governments to do the will of the people. I would much rather rally my neighbors and friends in town and go to the council meetings and make our voices heard.
Sorry for the long post but it is a very critical issue and I have one more thought; the state government (Federal too) will continue to spend and spend unless they are pulled back to reality by initiatives like this. I pay nearly 50% of my earnings to taxes and fees to live here in the good old US of A, I'm happy to pay something but there needs to be some limits set on government spending. One thing I know for sure unless you limit the funding drastically the legislature will not cut the sweetheart deals to their family and friends. VOTE YES QUESTION #1!!

 

[TAZZ63]

Another point, I used the Mass Pike today and gave my ticket to a toll collector (who was on the phone), do you know how much these people make to just collect tolls? On an average $70,000.00 a year and in order to get one of these jobs you have to be related to someone. One more example THE BIG DIG, another great use of my tax dollars. Look who is protesting question 1 the most, the state unions, they don't want the gravy train to end. As Ernie133 says I would rather have controll of how my money is spent.

 

[Capt Caveman]

Originally posted by: TAZZ63
Another point, I used the Mass Pike today and gave my ticket to a toll collector (who was on the phone), do you know how much these people make to just collect tolls? On an average $70,000.00 a year and in order to get one of these jobs you have to be related to someone. One more example THE BIG DIG, another great use of my tax dollars. Look who is protesting question 1 the most, the state unions, they don't want the gravy train to end. As Ernie133 says I would rather have controll of how my money is spent.

You do know that if there's no State Income Tax, the toll for the Mass Pike would go up astronomically right?

How are you going to have any control over how your money is spent? Towns will lose so much state(upwards of 15% of a town's budget) and if you don't want to override prop 2 1/2, say good bye to your school systems, police, fire. And guess what, who the hell will want to live in your town? Say good bye to your property values. You'll be like NH. Where towns have to share police/fire services and school systems. School systems suck. And if the property tax doesn't go up enough, say hello to a double digit sales tax.

I ask that you guys actually do some research on the subject. Boston.com has lots of stats and articles for/against Question #1.

Again, please don't make MA like NH. If you don't like MA, move to NH.

And to Ernie123, I pay only 10% of my PPO health insurance thru my company. Have you reported these people abusing the system? If no, why not?

Note - the removal of the state income tax will also benefit the rich the most. Those making $50k or less (65% of taxpayers) would only save $850 while those making over $100k (14% of taxpayer) would save on avg $16k). Food and clothing would also have to start being taxed, affecting the poor the most.

One link of info - http://www.boston.com/bostongl..._1__property_tax_hike/

 

[Dulanic]

Im voting no for #1 yes for #2. 2 saves tax payer dollars by not putting people in jail over a stupid thing like carrying a little bit of weed. As for #1, I am not for it. It benefits the rich more than anyone else. I can not afford to have my home lose more value as property taxes go up.

 

[Ernie133]

Capt Caveman:
Your buying into the hype from the left! The Govenor has found a $billion in cuts in the last 2 weeks because of the economic downturn, why didn't they do this 5 years ago when revenues were sky high and there was more tax money than things to spend it on? This is without hitting some of the real heavy hitters like pensions and health insurance. One of the main reasons I'm voting for this is that the state will not open the books to real scrutiiny. They have something to hide and its my money they're hiding! Without open books for the state budget no one really knows what will be lost by a YES vote. I have tried myself to get some numbers for my own town and who gets what, I can't. I've been told by the supporters of this petition that they have asked and been denied a detailed account of the states budget and financing, I can only conclude that there is something going on that they don't want the public to know.
The budget for the small town I live in has doubled in less than 10 years, alot of that is health care and pension costs that go up an average of 15% per year for all of us, why do we put up with this? If the money isn't available the prices will come down much like what we're seeing with gas prices today. People couldn't afford to take those extra trips and stopped, now OPEC is really afraid they've trained us to use less gas and the prices will plummet to a point they can't live those lavish lifestyles. That's what I want to do to State (and Federal) government. Make them cut back the programs that support them not society as a whole! As far as having a say in how money is spent, I can go to the town meeting and vote! I have a say and I can make my case in front of my neighbors. In my small town there will be alot more money available for schools, police, fire etc. Then when the state gets the picture that they can't take everyones money and spend it as they wish a more equitable system will come into play (I'm sure). There will be pain for some towns and cities but the overall effect hopefully will be positive. Remember the TEA PARTY! That is what created this great nation, that is now on the brink because of goverment's inability to see the obvious.

 

[Capt Caveman]

Originally posted by: Ernie133
Capt Caveman:
Your buying into the hype from the left! The Govenor has found a $billion in cuts in the last 2 weeks because of the economic downturn, why didn't they do this 5 years ago when revenues were sky high and there was more tax money than things to spend it on? This is without hitting some of the real heavy hitters like pensions and health insurance. One of the main reasons I'm voting for this is that the state will not open the books to real scrutiiny. They have something to hide and its my money they're hiding! Without open books for the state budget no one really knows what will be lost by a YES vote. I have tried myself to get some numbers for my own town and who gets what, I can't. I've been told by the supporters of this petition that they have asked and been denied a detailed account of the states budget and financing, I can only conclude that there is something going on that they don't want the public to know.
The budget for the small town I live in has doubled in less than 10 years, alot of that is health care and pension costs that go up an average of 15% per year for all of us, why do we put up with this? If the money isn't available the prices will come down much like what we're seeing with gas prices today. People couldn't afford to take those extra trips and stopped, now OPEC is really afraid they've trained us to use less gas and the prices will plummet to a point they can't live those lavish lifestyles. That's what I want to do to State (and Federal) government. Make them cut back the programs that support them not society as a whole! As far as having a say in how money is spent, I can go to the town meeting and vote! I have a say and I can make my case in front of my neighbors. In my small town there will be alot more money available for schools, police, fire etc. Then when the state gets the picture that they can't take everyones money and spend it as they wish a more equitable system will come into play (I'm sure). There will be pain for some towns and cities but the overall effect hopefully will be positive. Remember the TEA PARTY! That is what created this great nation, that is now on the brink because of goverment's inability to see the obvious.

How are health care and pension costs going to go down? They will continue to go up. Sorry but your schools, police/fire, etc will be reduced b/c you're not receiving state funding anymore.

Sounds like you want to reduce/cut programs that don't serve you and not the society as a whole.

Like I said, if you don't like it, there's always NH.

 

[bozack]

I am voting for it even though I know that either the legislature will not allow it or that they will make it up in other ways...

The fact is that Mass taxes are a joke, and what you get for them is even funnier...they need to get their shit in order with regards to spending

And the Mass legislature is notorious for voting against the will of the people. This state is a joke

 

[Capt Caveman]

fyi - http://www.massbudget.org/

 

[bozack]

Originally posted by: Infohawk
I'm not for or against this particular form of taxation, but didn't MA just enact universal health care? I'm tired of the electorate asking for more services but not wanting to pay for it.

Mass rolled out mandated healthcare...so basically if you make what they deem "enough" they you have to buy it your damn self...I know many who were hurt financially because of this.

 

[bozack]

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
fyi - http://www.massbudget.org/

The game shows just how fucked up the Mass social system is...amazing that they can spend that much and things suck as badly as they do...

 

[Jiggz]

Originally posted by: Infohawk
I'm not for or against this particular form of taxation, but didn't MA just enact universal health care? I'm tired of the electorate asking for more services but not wanting to pay for it.

Wait until BHO is in office and we can all start enjoying universal health care? And guess who's paying . . .?

 

[SilthDraeth]

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman

Originally posted by: SilthDraeth
Why can't income tax be just that... a tax on income. Wages do not constitute income originally by definition. BUT for the purpose of Income tax, wages count as income. So the definition of income has changed to fit the tax.

People with investments pay a tax on their returns from their investments. Blue Collar people working for every nickle and dime wouldn't pay the regular income tax.

For example, I agree with the poster that complained about property tax. It boggles my mind that you have to pay year after year a tax on a piece of property you own, and then, even if the land is undeveloped, and someone decides it is worth more than you payed for it, you now have to pay a higher price on that piece of property.

NO. There should be a flat services tax and that tax should include fire and police protection, and for that, the amount of the tax is a flat % of what you make. No matter if you are rich or poor, if you live and work in an area you pay a flat (for example) 5% of your wages earned that goes towards police and fire and nothing else. If you don't make any money, you don't pay for it.

That is my opinion anyways.

So, after saying that people shouldn't pay a tax on income, you really just want people to pay a flat tax on their income, so the poor have to shoulder a greater burden?

A flat tax isn't a greater burden. It is a flat 5%, so if you make 20k a year, you pay 1k a year in taxes, if you make 200k a year you pay 10k. And note, the 5% is to high of a percent, I just through the number out there. But it is the same burden for everyone. People want to tax the rich more, and burden them more, and make then provide for everyone else.

 

[Capt Caveman]

Originally posted by: SilthDraeth

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman

Originally posted by: SilthDraeth
Why can't income tax be just that... a tax on income. Wages do not constitute income originally by definition. BUT for the purpose of Income tax, wages count as income. So the definition of income has changed to fit the tax.

People with investments pay a tax on their returns from their investments. Blue Collar people working for every nickle and dime wouldn't pay the regular income tax.

For example, I agree with the poster that complained about property tax. It boggles my mind that you have to pay year after year a tax on a piece of property you own, and then, even if the land is undeveloped, and someone decides it is worth more than you payed for it, you now have to pay a higher price on that piece of property.

NO. There should be a flat services tax and that tax should include fire and police protection, and for that, the amount of the tax is a flat % of what you make. No matter if you are rich or poor, if you live and work in an area you pay a flat (for example) 5% of your wages earned that goes towards police and fire and nothing else. If you don't make any money, you don't pay for it.

That is my opinion anyways.

So, after saying that people shouldn't pay a tax on income, you really just want people to pay a flat tax on their income, so the poor have to shoulder a greater burden?

A flat tax isn't a greater burden. It is a flat 5%, so if you make 20k a year, you pay 1k a year in taxes, if you make 200k a year you pay 10k. And note, the 5% is to high of a percent, I just through the number out there. But it is the same burden for everyone. People want to tax the rich more, and burden them more, and make then provide for everyone else.

Yes, the rich should be paying a higher share. Again, a flat tax would allow the rich to pay less in taxes, the poor would be forced to shoulder more of the burden. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer.