Massachusetts Question 1: Eliminate the State Income Tax

[Capt Caveman]

Originally posted by: bozack

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
And their property taxes are a lot higher than here. You think the sales tax is the only thing that would go up and cover the loss of a state income tax? You sound very naive.

Being a home owner in WA where there is no state income tax. Sales tax was 8.5%. Auto fees were higher. Auto excise tax was higher. Selling my house there I learned that the excise tax was more than triple that in MA costs me thousands of dollars. And with all of that, the state provides horrible services.

Our prop tax would probabily go up a bit as well but it is already high so I view that as a small price to pay....plus services in this state suck as badly as the next, the roads blow and schools are only as good as the town you live in...

It's nowhere compared to NH, WA, FL, etc. Have you lived outside of MA in a state without a state income tax?

Edit - if you want to debate this, start another thread and stop derailing this one. I also believe there is another thread somewhere on this subject.

 

[bozack]

Originally posted by: Red DawnThe local townships getting creative on how to raise money to replace the money they were getting from the state scares me.

Like I said Red, the legislature will kill it even if it does pass, just the way MA is.

 

[DarrelSPowers]

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman

Originally posted by: ebaycj

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman

Originally posted by: DarrelSPowers
So... I guess based on this thread it's safe to say that Q#2 is really a non-issue for the non-hippie/stoner/activist folks, when compared to the tax issue?

In regards to Question 2, will decriminalizing Marijuana generate greater use and demand? If yes, I have no desire to see more money be generated for South American drug lords, more drug pushers, etc...

Then I vote No on Question 2.

Most marijuana is grown right here in the USA. It's not worth enough $$ to smuggle it in anymore.

I don't believe that's true. I still read plenty of arrest stories of $ millions of marijuana getting smuggled into the US.

Unfortunately, theres no way to tell either way. I still think that compared to other drugs coming from our southern neighbors, its a very small percentage. More than likely our state's stoner money is going to NH, VT, and (oh dear god) Canada.

 

[bozack]

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
It's nowhere compared to NH, WA, FL, etc. Have you lived outside of MA in a state without a state income tax?

Edit - if you want to debate this, start another thread and stop derailing this one. I also believe there is another thread somewhere on this subject.

My in laws live in FL as well as their parents and while prop taxes are higher they don't complain.

Mass has too many taxes as it is, getting rid of income tax will be a bonus, but it will never happen as this state is tax happy.

 

[techs]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: DarrelSPowers

Originally posted by: bozack

I think here in MA we have too many taxes and the services we recieve aren't that good, I wouldnt be averse to a higher sales tax to offset the cost of getting rid of income tax...

But we have income, sales tax, property tax, excise tax......etc etc etc.

When I was biking home from work i saw a "vote no on 1" sign, and I had no idea what it was. After reading your post, it makes sense that the sign was outside a public housing project.

I definetly agree that mass could do with a little bit less taxation, a solid 1/3 of my paycheck goes to taxes, and I make less than 40K a year... definitely wouldn't mind a bit more change in my pocket.

Also, to those who've said that they'll vote No on #2, I have to ask why? Like painman said, its really just poking fun at the Fed's drug policy, and won't change anything really.

And lets be serious, the only reason people go to NH is for booze and fireworks...

And Cigarettes.

I just got back from NH with a carton.
btw just what Mass needs right now is shifting the tax burden to property taxes which would necessitate a huge increase in property taxes and make homes lose a lot more value.
Heck, people on fixed incomes who pay little or no income taxes will now be unable to afford their homes. Its gonna be a foreclosure nightmare.



Merged

Anandtech Senior Moderator
Red Dawn

 

[BeauJangles]

http://wbztv.com/politics/stat...come.tax.2.845987.html

Two weeks from now, voters will have the chance to repeal the state's income tax.

But would it ever really become law?

Chief Correspondent Joe Shortsleeve has been talking to his sources on Beacon Hill and he has been told, even if Question 1 passes, it would probably not go into effect next year.

In a month filled with the worst economic news since the Great Depression, anyone and everyone is trying to save money. It is against this back drop that Massachusetts voters will get the chance to save thousands of dollars by eliminating the state's income tax on Election Day.

Question 1 was placed on the November ballot by Carla Howell and her group, Committee for Small Government.

"Voters will get back an average of $3,700 dollars every year when we end the income tax," Howell said.

Now here is where it gets interesting. Sources are telling Shortsleeve that if voters elect to abolish the state income tax, lawmakers on Beacon Hill will either vote to over-ride it or they will vote to delay it.

Howell says, "Our opponents have said it is at their peril if they undermine the will of the voters, they have said it would be political suicide for them, we should believe them."

Politically powerful and connected groups are already on TV promising dire consequences if Question 1 is approved by the voters and $12 billion in tax revenue disappears.

The TV spot says "Question 1 would slash the state budget by 40 percent, forcing drastic cuts in our schools, health care, police and fire."

David Turk of the Beacon Hill Institute, a conservative think tank, says even though his group believes Massachusetts could survive without the income tax, he doesn't think we will ever actually find out.

"I don't think the legislature is going to allow Question 1 to stand?if it is passed."

Gov. Deval Patrick agrees with the TV spot. He told Shortsleeve on Monday, "I think, for those who are concerned about cuts that are already taking place, if Question 1 passes, they ain't seen nothing yet."

Even voters who support paying a state income tax don't like the suggestion that the electorate could be over ruled on this issue.

"I don't think people will be very happy with that," said one voter.

Another voter added, "I wouldn't be surprised if they ignored us."

If voters approve Question 1 and lawmakers do not act, the state's 5.3 percent income tax rate would be sliced in half in 2009 and totally eliminated in 2010.

Personally, I think eliminating the state income tax isn't a good idea. First, the state would try to make it up in other ways, probably by raising property taxes like crazy which would hurt retirees and the elderly. Second, lower income households would barely get any money back and would lose services and benefits that many of them need. Third, the state would slash municipal aid, which would hurt everybody.

I guess the idea of sending a message to the MA legislature (democratic supermajority in both the House and the Senate) would be nice, but the costs of Question 1 would be terribly, terribly high.

The only thing I don't know where I stand is on what would happen if Question 1 passes. I think the proposal is terrible, but I don't think that I'm comfortable with the government simply ignoring the results.

Any other thoughts?

 

[Genx87]

I dont really see the problem with taxing property owners over income earners. One of the ways to tap the truely rich is to tag their assets not their income.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: BeauJangles

Personally, I think eliminating the state income tax isn't a good idea.

First, the state would try to make it up in other ways, probably by raising property taxes like crazy which would hurt retirees and the elderly.

Second, lower income households would barely get any money back and would lose services and benefits that many of them need.

Third, the state would slash municipal aid, which would hurt everybody.

Oh my how does Tennesse and the other states without income tax survive? :roll:

 

[BeauJangles]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: BeauJangles

Personally, I think eliminating the state income tax isn't a good idea.

First, the state would try to make it up in other ways, probably by raising property taxes like crazy which would hurt retirees and the elderly.

Second, lower income households would barely get any money back and would lose services and benefits that many of them need.

Third, the state would slash municipal aid, which would hurt everybody.

Oh my how does Tennesse and the other states without income tax survive? :roll:

Very high property taxes. :roll: Plus, that argument is idiotic. State government is a frustrating entity. Cutting the state budget by so much would only result in necessary services getting hurt, not cutting out excess spending.

Like I said, I think most people in MA want to send a message to the legislature, but this one is too drastic and would hurt lots of people.

 

[DarrelSPowers]

two major issues in MA, tax reform and drug reform.

I recently took an engineering job in MA, and I never realized how much more my income tax would be. I mean, I used to think NY was bad. Granted I'd like to see more money in my paycheck, but I've got no idea what the govt. would do without that money in their pockets. With taxes as they are, I'm fairly comfortable, but I'm unsure of which way to vote for on #1, but I'm pretty sure about #2.

 

[winnar111]

Originally posted by: BeauJangles

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: BeauJangles

Personally, I think eliminating the state income tax isn't a good idea.

First, the state would try to make it up in other ways, probably by raising property taxes like crazy which would hurt retirees and the elderly.

Second, lower income households would barely get any money back and would lose services and benefits that many of them need.

Third, the state would slash municipal aid, which would hurt everybody.

Oh my how does Tennesse and the other states without income tax survive? :roll:

Very high property taxes. :roll: Plus, that argument is idiotic. State government is a frustrating entity. Cutting the state budget by so much would only result in necessary services getting hurt, not cutting out excess spending.

Like I said, I think most people in MA want to send a message to the legislature, but this one is too drastic and would hurt lots of people.

The NJ state budget in 1997 was about $16 billion. In 2007 it was $32 billion. Why can't they cut back to ~$16 million*inflation?

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

Originally posted by: Genx87
I dont really see the problem with taxing property owners over income earners. One of the ways to tap the truely rich is to tag their assets not their income.

Property taxes are more of a burden the less income you have. Let's not tag the rich folks by rolling regular & poor folks under the bus.

 

[Infohawk]

I'm not for or against this particular form of taxation, but didn't MA just enact universal health care? I'm tired of the electorate asking for more services but not wanting to pay for it.

 

[Specop 007]

I'd rather pay an income tax over a property tax.

Property taxes do affect everyone, some directly and some indirectly. But the main point is, as long as something has a yearly tax you dont OWN it, you rent it. Stop paying the property tax on your paid for house and see how long you live there......

Property taxes strike me as a way of undermining personal ownership of something.

But, if its income instead of property then so be it. ANY tax cuts are GOOD tax cuts in my opinion.

 

[sandorski]

Damn. I think the Government would at best only be able to work towardds that goal. You can't just cut 40% of Budgets or up other Taxes to make up such large shortfalls on the spur of the moment. One would hope that the Voters would be smarter than fall for this.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: bozack

Originally posted by: techs

hehe. As it stands now I can't get to the stores in New Hampshire on the weekends because of all the cars with Massachusettes plates clogging the roads on th way to shop there. And I live only 2 miles from New Hampshire.

And only 8%? Yeah, right. Goes double for me. And probably for you too, Mass.

Like I said, if they start taxing clothing and food then there won't be a need to go that high, heck Fl doesn't have an income tax and they are only at 6%....

Either way, it doesn't matter as even if it got voted in the legislative would shoot it down like they do everything else since this state is a joke.

And FYI those cars have always been going up there like that cause people have always been cheap.

They got freaking Highway Tolls out the wazoo though. Between the Airport and downtown Orlando we had to stop at 3 freakin Toll booths. That was a PITA.

 

[TAZZ63]

As far as question one goes I'm for it. I, being a tax payer in this state for my entire working life have been paying these taxes. What upsets me most is the the way welfare is run here, When I go shopping for example I see people using welfare and not just for necessities then on the way out to the parking lot what do some of the people get into but new cars and suv's. I'm not saying that's true for everyone but more often than not. I'm sick of supporting deadbeats. Oh yea I live in the western end of the state which dosen't really exist.

 

[techs]

Originally posted by: TAZZ63
As far as question one goes I'm for it. I, being a tax payer in this state for my entire working life have been paying these taxes. What upsets me most is the the way welfare is run here, When I go shopping for example I see people using welfare and not just for necessities then on the way out to the parking lot what do some of the people get into but new cars and suv's. I'm not saying that's true for everyone but more often than not. I'm sick of supporting deadbeats. Oh yea I live in the western end of the state which dosen't really exist.

Have you stopped to think about what you posted?
Without the state income tax both sales taxes and property taxes will skyrocket and home prices will plummet. It will also shift the tax burden away from the richest to the middle and lower class. So unless you're a multimillionaire you will be paying more. That's of course if you even have a job as most businesses will leave Mass.

 

[CPA]

Originally posted by: Specop 007
I'd rather pay an income tax over a property tax.

Property taxes do affect everyone, some directly and some indirectly. But the main point is, as long as something has a yearly tax you dont OWN it, you rent it. Stop paying the property tax on your paid for house and see how long you live there......

Property taxes strike me as a way of undermining personal ownership of something.

But, if its income instead of property then so be it. ANY tax cuts are GOOD tax cuts in my opinion.

I'd rather pay property tax or sales tax than income tax. That way I have a better opportunity to dictate how much I send to the goverment.

 

[SilthDraeth]

Why can't income tax be just that... a tax on income. Wages do not constitute income originally by definition. BUT for the purpose of Income tax, wages count as income. So the definition of income has changed to fit the tax.

People with investments pay a tax on their returns from their investments. Blue Collar people working for every nickle and dime wouldn't pay the regular income tax.

For example, I agree with the poster that complained about property tax. It boggles my mind that you have to pay year after year a tax on a piece of property you own, and then, even if the land is undeveloped, and someone decides it is worth more than you payed for it, you now have to pay a higher price on that piece of property.

NO. There should be a flat services tax and that tax should include fire and police protection, and for that, the amount of the tax is a flat % of what you make. No matter if you are rich or poor, if you live and work in an area you pay a flat (for example) 5% of your wages earned that goes towards police and fire and nothing else. If you don't make any money, you don't pay for it.

That is my opinion anyways.

 

[Dissipate]

Originally posted by: CPA

I'd rather pay property tax or sales tax than income tax. That way I have a better opportunity to dictate how much I send to the goverment.

Right, because no one ever needs to own property or buy anything.

 

[mugs]

Originally posted by: TAZZ63
As far as question one goes I'm for it. I, being a tax payer in this state for my entire working life have been paying these taxes. What upsets me most is the the way welfare is run here, When I go shopping for example I see people using welfare and not just for necessities then on the way out to the parking lot what do some of the people get into but new cars and suv's. I'm not saying that's true for everyone but more often than not. I'm sick of supporting deadbeats. Oh yea I live in the western end of the state which dosen't really exist.

Eliminating the income tax isn't going to help you. They'll need to raise other taxes to compensate. You need to force your legislators to cut spending, and the taxes will follow.

 

[Capt Caveman]

Originally posted by: SilthDraeth
Why can't income tax be just that... a tax on income. Wages do not constitute income originally by definition. BUT for the purpose of Income tax, wages count as income. So the definition of income has changed to fit the tax.

People with investments pay a tax on their returns from their investments. Blue Collar people working for every nickle and dime wouldn't pay the regular income tax.

For example, I agree with the poster that complained about property tax. It boggles my mind that you have to pay year after year a tax on a piece of property you own, and then, even if the land is undeveloped, and someone decides it is worth more than you payed for it, you now have to pay a higher price on that piece of property.

NO. There should be a flat services tax and that tax should include fire and police protection, and for that, the amount of the tax is a flat % of what you make. No matter if you are rich or poor, if you live and work in an area you pay a flat (for example) 5% of your wages earned that goes towards police and fire and nothing else. If you don't make any money, you don't pay for it.

That is my opinion anyways.

So, after saying that people shouldn't pay a tax on income, you really just want people to pay a flat tax on their income, so the poor have to shoulder a greater burden?

 

[OFFascist]

Texas, Washington, Alaska, and a few others seem to get by okay without a state income tax.

Massachsetts should join the club.

 

[Capt Caveman]

Originally posted by: OFFascist
Texas, Washington, Alaska, and a few others seem to get by okay without a state income tax.

Massachsetts should join the club.

I used to live in WA and found that due to no state income tax:

Sales Tax of 8.75%(it's even higher now with local sales tax added starting 7/08) compared to 5%
Excise tax was 1.75% compared .5% (costing me $5k+ more when I sold my home in WA)
Auto fees triple
Property taxes doubled
Less services, public transportation, etc

I paid more living in WA with no State income with less services. I'll take a State Income tax anyday.