Marvel changing their iconic super heros in the name of diversity

[Skel]

That wasn't his point. The point is authenticity. If a character is white, leave them white. If a character is black, asian, indian, etc.... LEAVE IT ALONE. By fiddling with it, you mess with the structure of the character. It seems like the big thing is to screw with things that were fine the way they were. Movies and comics just can't seem to do new stories or characters. They just have to change fundamental things about existing ones. It's pretty crazy how much money they'll waste to try to earn more....

It's mostly about ego and getting a producer credit. I've seen first hand how many movie makers get an IP from a comic or what not and look to see what they can change before figuring out hte story. That way they get to have "their" version of the character and many times get a producer credit which means more money. I'm old school as when I learned to make comics it was drilled into me that we're just caretakers of the IPs. We don't own them, nor should we do anything that someone else can't recover from. It's not the best approach in all comics, but it works for long standing IPs.

You're missing the point as well. Is this a life altering problem? Of course not. However, it's annoying to see things that you associate with your childhood changed......for no other reason than just because they can. I realize that they skip and change things and kill and restore constantly. However, the killing and restoring generally affects the SAME character, not one that they've decided to change race/gender on. I know the times are hard on the comic business and most of the money now comes from movies and merchandising but still.......leave the characters and their origins alone.

Movies and merchandising does little for comics as a business. It's been shown quite a few times that just because you have a successful movie/TV/Whatever doesn't mean you'll get a new reader. With the exceptions of parent companies like Disney or WB who'll make money regardless of the medium it's in, comics don't have anything to do with the other outlets. While most comics start to morph into the popular versions, that's mostly because their creators/editors liked that version and want to start working with them. I've never head of a corporate mandate to change a comic to align with something else. I remember quite a few from Marvel before Disney bought them back in the 2000s when you had a couple of huge hits with Spider-Man and X-Men yet the comics weren't doing anything to even try to get new readers. If the comics are getting changed, its normally because some creator/editor wants to do "their" version of them.

True, but that was part of the larger problem - it wasn't like they'd hire black people to make them, and it wasn't like there was any interest in the black market (or others).

It might be better to have 'spinoff' lines though with the new versions of the heroes - not like they haven't done that. Can't please everyone.

I guess it's a little like the history of advertising - where mainstream things would be white people, and if there were minorities, it wasn't especially flattering (e.g., Aunt Jemima).

I'm guessing it is mostly a money grab in the face of declining sales and demographic shifts.

The big two have tried a few times to have spin off worlds. They rarely do well long term. The reason long running titles like Batman and Spider-Man do so well is normally a combo of good writing and mostly a long history. Those people that continue to read are still scratching that same itch they had when they were kids.

Marvel also is creating new IPs. Ms. Marvel is a new IP that is doing well. She's now a Muslim Pakistani girl with morphing powers. The title is an old one, but that character went on to a new title (Captain Marvel) and is also still selling. It's not all redos

 

[OutHouse]

great post Skel.

 

[master_shake_]

You're meaning to tell me you've never been beat up by a pair of huge knockers? They can hurt!

......no...

 

[jackstar7]

The silliest part of this whole thing is that a popular comic book these days sells maybe a few hundred thousand copies (and likely to far fewer readers). Those numbers are equivalent to shows that are cancelled from basic cable.

The books at this point are irrelevant to the brands. But when they can make a headline then I'm sure that drives people to the theaters, where they make their real money.

So if you find yourself giving a shit about how media giants play with their properties... find another hobby. I'm sure you can dump that extra cash into your MTG collection without a hiccup.

 

[pete6032]

Yeah I was so pissed off when they made James Bond with blonde hair. It just ruined everything for me. Then on top of that they gave him blue eyes, I mean wtf.

 

[zinfamous]

i know right. last i checked Thor was still the SON of Odin. is Marvel going to rewrite ancient Norse mythology as well?

Actually, the Norse originally retconned the Thor and Odin/Woden gods from the original mythology of early Germanic tribes. Prior to the Norse adopting these gods at a later time, Thor and Woden were unrelated, competitive gods of equal stature.

So, don't blame Marvel for such shenanigans.

 

[Crono]

Actually, the Norse originally retconned the Thor and Odin/Woden gods from the original mythology of early Germanic tribes. Prior to the Norse adopting these gods at a later time, Thor and Woden were unrelated, competitive gods of equal stature.

So, don't blame Marvel for such shenanigans.

Yup.

And if you want to see some really complicated retconning, look into Egyptian and Greco-Roman mythology *shudders*. So many patron gods with different powers and purviews, with different interpretations of the gods over time and by region.

 

[Craig234]

Wtf? please quote me on how I am trying to change the subject to this stupid rabbit hole you are blabbering about.

I am still waiting for the answer to my question. dont be afraid, its ok if you cant answer it, we understand.

You made a post implying that there's no difference between the history of discrimination against whites and blacks.

I pointed that out. You did not address the point but changed the topic. Clearly you are not going to understand that, so no need to repeat ourselves on it.

 

[Craig234]

Actually, the Norse originally retconned the Thor and Odin/Woden gods from the original mythology of early Germanic tribes. Prior to the Norse adopting these gods at a later time, Thor and Woden were unrelated, competitive gods of equal stature.

So, don't blame Marvel for such shenanigans.

"Thor... I am your father"?

 

[DeathReborn]

The end goal must be a Marvel movie with every race represented "except white ofc" Hawkeye would probably be Native American Indian, or is that not PC anymore? I am not against diversity, I am just not in favour of their chosen methods of increasing diversity. They should be trying to create new characters, new heroes/gods/machines/mutants/whatever else they think of next.

 

[nakedfrog]

I don't think I've seen any responses yet... how many of you have actually bought a Marvel comic in the past decade?

 

[Skel]

I don't think I've seen any responses yet... how many of you have actually bought a Marvel comic in the past decade?

I'm not sure I missed something you said, but to answer this question, yes.. I have. I'm not sure what that matters though.

 

[smackababy]

I don't think I've seen any responses yet... how many of you have actually bought a Marvel comic in the past decade?

I have, quite a few actually. Not weekly, but mostly just one shorts or short runs for certain characters.

 

[jackstar7]

The end goal must be a Marvel movie with every race represented "except white ofc" Hawkeye would probably be Native American Indian, or is that not PC anymore? I am not against diversity, I am just not in favour of their chosen methods of increasing diversity. They should be trying to create new characters, new heroes/gods/machines/mutants/whatever else they think of next.

Sam Wilson is about as established as a character could be, and really nicely a legacy fit for Cap. Same can be said for Jane Foster.

And they are also creating new characters, like the new Iron Man. So you're problem is one of who gets to hold the mantle? Is that it? Seems pretty arbitrary thing to complain about.

Also I do buy Marvel comics. Loved Hickman's work and currently reading Slott's Surfer and in and out on Spidey of late as my access to my local shop changed a bit. I tend to follow creators though, and care a lot less about the characters other than being the vehicles for the stories.

 

[nakedfrog]

I'm not sure I missed something you said, but to answer this question, yes.. I have. I'm not sure what that matters though.

I have, quite a few actually. Not weekly, but mostly just one shorts or short runs for certain characters.

I mean, people certainly have a right to express their thoughts, I just don't know how much it should matter to Marvel if the ones complaining the loudest are no longer customers.

 

[DeathReborn]

I don't think I've seen any responses yet... how many of you have actually bought a Marvel comic in the past decade?

I buy them for my nephews, so yes I have bought Marvel comics in the past decade. I used to get them myself until I was about 14, for the last 3 years just for my Nephews.

Sam Wilson is about as established as a character could be, and really nicely a legacy fit for Cap. Same can be said for Jane Foster.

And they are also creating new characters, like the new Iron Man. So you're problem is one of who gets to hold the mantle? Is that it? Seems pretty arbitrary thing to complain about.

Also I do buy Marvel comics. Loved Hickman's work and currently reading Slott's Surfer and in and out on Spidey of late as my access to my local shop changed a bit. I tend to follow creators though, and care a lot less about the characters other than being the vehicles for the stories.

My nephews (11 & 8) love the Marvel characters and neither of them can get to grips with the changes, it's not just a personal issue about changing characters so massively but also the fact it alienates some of the young Marvel fans. I have no issues with Thor the Goddess of Thunder, I'd have issues if that became God of Thunder. Sam Wilson as Captain America, having neither bought or read those editions I have no idea if he has the abilities of Steve Rogers via the Serum etc or not. New Iron Man... I guess Iron Lady is too political (Margaret Thatcher etc).

 

[Mayne]

https://youtu.be/Mb3iPP-tHdA

 

[JEDI]

Sam Wilson as Captain America, having neither bought or read those editions I have no idea if he has the abilities of Steve Rogers via the Serum etc or not.

I think he's just a regular person with good hand to hand skills and tactics.
Just like when the Punisher became capt America for a short while.

how the hell does a normal person compete with the bad guys Steve 'super soldier serum' Rogers fought?
meh

 

[Mayne]

i'm a true believer. Comics cn do what they want at the time..yeah i'm old school, but its all good.

 

[William Gaatjes]

Yep, it has always been this way, has always been terrible, and has always been just about the dolla bills. Instead of merely killing some well-known character for the fifth time they're killing them and having them come back black. Still don't care.

Though now I'm imagining the Wolverine we've always known, except with boobs, and I am not unamused.

She already exists. Wolverine has a clone/daughter with adamantium skeleton and claws. X-23. And even a big toe claw i had not seen in the comics i have.

To be mastered in martial arts, a formidable fighter she would be.

 

[William Gaatjes]

I do think that it would be better to just create new characters than to just change the old characters. I think it is also nonsense to just change a given character to reach a target group just like that.
The proper way is to let their powers transfer to another by some freak experiment or let them die. That is how it was done in the 20 years ago in marvel comics and is the proper way. For example captain marvel was originally male but died of cancer. The next captain marvel was a white woman called Carol Danvers who lost her powers because Rogue took them from them. The new captain Marvel after that is a black woman called Monica Rambeau with the ability to channel all kinds of em energy. After that, i lost track.

 

[William Gaatjes]

I should note with respect to the feet of X 23, seen the amounts of little bones a foot has to maintain agility... I am surprised to see such a large (bone) claw in a foot.
I guess the artists at Marvel did not have biology classes. A tiny claw could be possible but not that long. Also, sometimes the artists draw the hand claws longer then the forearm is.
Which is also a flaw. Even in the movies, this can be seen.

 

[Red Storm]

Of course they should make new, original, interesting characters that represent other diversities. But that's too much work, easier to take an established character and change their gender/ethnicity. It's about doing the least amount of work (and risk) for the most money.

 

[jackstar7]

Of course they should make new, original, interesting characters that represent other diversities. But that's too much work, easier to take an established character and change their gender/ethnicity. It's about doing the least amount of work (and risk) for the most money.

Half of this is right. It's about limiting risk. All comic companies put out new characters and stories every year. Those most likely to get traction build on an established brand. Outliers like Walking Dead make people believe that comic readers want new stories and new characters, but the numbers never bear that out. Batman still rules in terms of sales and fans couldn't even accept Grayson taking the mantle, despite excellent storytelling with him in the role.

It's a limitation of the audience which has failed to be grown despite the bombastic movie franchises building from these pantheons.

 

[Ruptga]

She already exists. Wolverine has a clone/daughter with adamantium skeleton and claws. X-23. And even a big toe claw i had not seen in the comics i have.

To be mastered in martial arts, a formidable fighter she would be.

I was actually imagining Jackman with huge comic book tits instead of pecs, so you can imagine how disappointing this is.