Man's death not caused by Taser

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: JLee

Originally posted by: alkemyst
Most cops today are in it because it's the easiest job out of the ghetto / for the non-ambitious to get. They really need to set better physical standards so the cops can handle situations without getting scared and having to use their batman items.

Maybe in some parts of the country..but here, you need to complete physical exercises at the 50th percentile of the Cooper standards (1.5mi run, situps, pushups and bench press). The Taser provides a way to deploy non-deadly force with less risk of injury than going hands-on or deploying a baton.

WOW 50TH PERCENTILE????

Age: 20 - 29

Situps in 1 minute: 40

Sit and reach: (WTF?): 17-1/2 in.

Bench Press: 1.06 X Body Weight

1.5 mile run: 11:49

After 39 it scales way down...

That's hardly in 'shape'

 

[jlee]

Originally posted by: alkemyst

Originally posted by: JLee

Originally posted by: alkemyst
Most cops today are in it because it's the easiest job out of the ghetto / for the non-ambitious to get. They really need to set better physical standards so the cops can handle situations without getting scared and having to use their batman items.

Maybe in some parts of the country..but here, you need to complete physical exercises at the 50th percentile of the Cooper standards (1.5mi run, situps, pushups and bench press). The Taser provides a way to deploy non-deadly force with less risk of injury than going hands-on or deploying a baton.

WOW 50TH PERCENTILE????

Age: 20 - 29

Situps in 1 minute: 40

Sit and reach: (WTF?): 17-1/2 in.

Bench Press: 1.06 X Body Weight

1.5 mile run: 11:49

After 39 it scales way down...

That's hardly in 'shape'

They're pretty close to the standards for the US Army - what's your definition of 'in shape', then?

I didn't say sit and reach, either. Nice reading comprehension.

 

[Kirby]

I'd be curious to see what the actual death statistics are for tasers. For so many shocks, how many deaths.

 

[jlee]

Originally posted by: nkgreen
I'd be curious to see what the actual death statistics are for tasers. For so many shocks, how many deaths.

Granted, it is from Taser International, but here's some info.

Interesting info in the Columbus TASER study - they indicate that suspect injuries have declined by 24.1% and officer injuries have declined by 23.4% during the period of the study.

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: JLee

They're pretty close to the standards for the US Army - what's your definition of 'in shape', then?

I didn't say sit and reach, either. Nice reading comprehension.

Nice understanding the Cooper standards then...IT says sit and reach.

So you think that's pretty close to military? What, just getting in as a grunt?

 

[Dessert Tears]

Follow-up article: Details of Taser incident emerge

 

[Chryso]

More people die from bullets than from tasers.

 

[PrinceofWands]

As long as everyone accepts that if you ban tasers more people will be shot, I have no problem with banning them. They're a useful tool, but they're not perfect, and far too often police think of them as a tool of compliance instead of non-lethal violence. I just don't want a bunch of bleeding hearts complaining when more people are killed because the police shoot them with a handgun or rifle instead of a taser.

 

[soydios]

what other ranged weapon do police officers carry other than a taser? wouldn't they use that instead if tasers were banned? just a thought.

 

[Arkaign]

Hordes of civilians should carry tasers, and randomly taze cops repeatedly That'd be great fun.

 

[MrPickins]

Originally posted by: spidey07
Here's a novel idea, do what the cop says and you won't get tazed. Don't pull a weapon on them or try to run them over and you won't get shot either. Brilliant!

I know this is really hard for some people to understand. But it really isn't that difficult.

"Deputies asked Haake to get some medical attention, but he refused, Barta said."
That's the guy's crucial mistake right there, NOT the police. Don't do what they say, get the taze.

He was refusing medical treatment. How is that cause for tazing?

As an adult isn't he well within his rights to refuse any medical treatment should he so desire?

 

[Dessert Tears]

Drive Stun

From original article
The Taser was used in the "Drive Stun" capacity, where the Taser is held against the person without firing a cartridge, and is intended to cause pain without incapacitating the person, officials said.

Due to the electrodes being pressed against the skin without penetrating and the small fixed distance between them, Drive Stun is significantly less effective than the Taser's projectile mode. It causes acute localized pain and may leave redness or welts, but it does not disrupt neuromuscular function and has no "paralyzing" effect.

Drive Stun was used in both the UCLA (thread) and UF (thread) Taser incidents.


Head injuries

From original article
Deputies had been dispatched shortly after 11 p.m. Saturday to the Goodyear Tire & Rubber Co. plant, where Goodyear employees were trying to get Haake, a worker there, to not drive away because they thought he was suffering from a medical condition, possibly a head injury.

From MedlinePlus Medical Encyclopedia: Head injury, NLM and NIH
The following symptoms suggest a more serious head injury -- other than a concussion or contusion -- and require emergency medical treatment:

• Irritability (especially in children), personality changes, or unusual behavior

I have read elsewhere that the subject's behavior may include irrationality, uncooperativeness, or even belligerence or combativeness.

 

[cdmccool]

Wow, that's just terrible. According to the follow-up article, the police took away his keys and he was just sitting in his jeep. They were trying to get him out of the jeep and into a waiting ambulance, but he was refusing medical help.

You can't refuse medical help or something? I don't have medical insurance, and if someone was trying to force me to seek medical help when I didn't feel that I needed it, I would be pissed.

 

[MedicBob]

If you are not acting in your right mind and cannot answer simple questions, yes, you will be taken to the hospital, possibly against your will. It could be any one of thousands of reasons why you are not acting as you normally would. Very common reasons are drinking, drugs, diabetic, seizure, and head injury.

I am a very big fan of tasers. I do not know why they used the stun feature in this case so I won't comment on if they should/shouldn't have. They artical does state he "Plant employees said Walter Edward Haake Jr., of Lawrence, seemed disoriented and may have had a head injury." Should he go to get check out? Yes. Can he refuse? Maybe. Can the police place him in protective custody and make him go? Maybe.

Too many here are second guessing and have no experience with tasers, police work, dealing with confused patients, etc.

 

[Baked]

Originally posted by: MedicBob
If you are not acting in your right mind and cannot answer simple questions, yes, you will be taken to the hospital, possibly against your will. It could be any one of thousands of reasons why you are not acting as you normally would. Very common reasons are drinking, drugs, diabetic, seizure, and head injury.

I am a very big fan of tasers. I do not know why they used the stun feature in this case so I won't comment on if they should/shouldn't have. They artical does state he "Plant employees said Walter Edward Haake Jr., of Lawrence, seemed disoriented and may have had a head injury." Should he go to get check out? Yes. Can he refuse? Maybe. Can the police place him in protective custody and make him go? Maybe.

Too many here are second guessing and have no experience with tasers, police work, dealing with confused patients, etc.

Haven't you figured out ATOT's theme song is "Fuck the Police?"

 

[Aharami]

Originally posted by: MotionMan
We do not know nearly enough about this case to make a call about it. Perhaps the guy, in his mentally disturbed state, was correctly deemed by the cops, to be a danger to himself or others and the cops decided they had to take control of him.

Like I said before, cops do not usually respond to such situations be getting in their cars and leaving.

MotionMan

maybe this maybe that. why does everyone defending cops' actions in threads like these always fabricate possible scenarios to defend the cops, yet never explore the possible scenario that the cop was in the wrong?

only info we have is the one posted in the link in the OP, and going by that, there was no reason for the cops to tase the guy.

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: JLee

Originally posted by: jpeyton
I guess today's police academies educate hordes of limp-wristed officers who can't subdue a person without zapping the shit out of him first.

Would you rather be sprayed?

yes.

 

[NikolaeVarius]

Originally posted by: Aharami

Originally posted by: MotionMan
We do not know nearly enough about this case to make a call about it. Perhaps the guy, in his mentally disturbed state, was correctly deemed by the cops, to be a danger to himself or others and the cops decided they had to take control of him.

Like I said before, cops do not usually respond to such situations be getting in their cars and leaving.

MotionMan

maybe this maybe that. why does everyone defending cops' actions in threads like these always fabricate possible scenarios to defend the cops, yet never explore the possible scenario that the cop was in the wrong?

only info we have is the one posted in the link in the OP, and going by that, there was no reason for the cops to tase the guy.

Because, 90% of responses are FUCK THE COPS. Some of us at least try to give the guy a fair trial

 

[Dessert Tears]

Update, also added links in OP.

Lawrence Journal-World

Details of Taser incident emerge, 4/3
Coroner: Taser did not cause man's death, 4/9

Topeka Capital-Journal

Man dies after being hit by Taser, 4/1
Goodyear worker identified in Taser incident, 4/2
No word on whether deputy's taser killed man, 4/3
Report: Cuffing a factor in death, 4/9

Daily Dose: What is a taser, and how does it work? ? Taser primer

Coroner: Taser did not cause man's death, linked above
"The cause of death is of cardiac nature, with contribution by compression of the torso," the report said. Mitchell was unavailable for comment Tuesday evening.

Haake had a history of cardiac disease and diabetes mellitus, according to the coroner?s release. And the positioning of his body at the time of death also was a contributing factor, Mitchell found.

"Haake died while held face down on the ground and as handcuffs were applied," the release said. "Sudden death occasionally results from positional mechanisms and from cardiac mechanisms when persons are held in the position described."

...

Sharon Mandel, chief medical investigator with the coroner?s office, said the findings were preliminary and a complete report will be issued following toxicology test results.

 

[NikolaeVarius]

Originally posted by: Flatscan
Update, also added links in OP.

Lawrence Journal-World

Details of Taser incident emerge, 4/3
Coroner: Taser did not cause man's death, 4/9

Topeka Capital-Journal

Man dies after being hit by Taser, 4/1
Goodyear worker identified in Taser incident, 4/2
No word on whether deputy's taser killed man, 4/3
Report: Cuffing a factor in death, 4/9

Daily Dose: What is a taser, and how does it work? ? Taser primer

Coroner: Taser did not cause man's death, linked above
"The cause of death is of cardiac nature, with contribution by compression of the torso," the report said. Mitchell was unavailable for comment Tuesday evening.

Haake had a history of cardiac disease and diabetes mellitus, according to the coroner?s release. And the positioning of his body at the time of death also was a contributing factor, Mitchell found.

"Haake died while held face down on the ground and as handcuffs were applied," the release said. "Sudden death occasionally results from positional mechanisms and from cardiac mechanisms when persons are held in the position described."

...

Sharon Mandel, chief medical investigator with the coroner?s office, said the findings were preliminary and a complete report will be issued following toxicology test results.

In before Coroner is covering for the cop.

Anyway, makes sense that compressing a guys unhealthy heart would cause it to go haywire.

 

[Dessert Tears]

Lawrence Journal-World: Deputies in Taser death placed on leave with pay
Topeka Capital-Journal: Deputies involved in tasering on leave

 

[Dessert Tears]

Lawrence Journal-World:
No charges to be filed in Taser death, 6/4

Topeka Capital-Journal:
D.A. has tasing reports, but unsure of next step, 5/17
D.A.: No charges in tasing, 6/4

Late update due to this incident being mentioned in another thread.

Edit: Thread moved to P&N here.

 

[Scarpozzi]

There's actually something few people know about Taser. They redesigned their devices a year or so ago to be "more effective". I think they actually dropped the voltage and increased the amperage. The internal electronics of stun guns aren't exactly rocket science and when you scale the knock-down power against accidental deaths, I'm sure you could document a solid relationship or percentage to back up their failure rate. (I say failure rate to describe them as 'less than lethal')

Each circuit manufactured could easily go outside of the regulated voltage or amperage. But I'm sure in most cases, the jolt is just enough to cause bodily the neuromuscular system to suffer and not recover. There are other devices cops could use, but they might be less effective or have long-lasting effects of injury every time they're used.

The biggest problem with Tasers are that they're abused by police in many situations. Before they came along, the gun and billy club were all that was needed to control someone. The problem here are the people who get out of control and whine and complain when they get what they deserve. Too many people think bruises are a sign of brute force. Tasers are worse than a pop to the jaw if you ask me.

 

[Nik]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: daniel1113

Originally posted by: spidey07
Here's a novel idea, do what the cop says and you won't get tazed.

Yeah, a cop would NEVER misuse a tazer or taze someone that doesn't deserve it. Just do what they say!

:roll:

Every single one of these is where the perp didn't follow commands. It's not that difficult to understand, really. If you don't follow commands then you most certainly deserve to be tazed.

:laugh:

Sheeple are funny.

 

[MotionMan]

Originally posted by: Nik

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: daniel1113

Originally posted by: spidey07
Here's a novel idea, do what the cop says and you won't get tazed.

Yeah, a cop would NEVER misuse a tazer or taze someone that doesn't deserve it. Just do what they say!

:roll:

Every single one of these is where the perp didn't follow commands. It's not that difficult to understand, really. If you don't follow commands then you most certainly deserve to be tazed.

:laugh:

Sheeple are funny.

The sayings "Discretion is the better part of valor" and "You have to choose your battles" are appropriate when dealing with the police, especially when you are warned repeatedly that you are going to be tazed.

I mean, really, what do you think is going to happen once the officer warns you that you're going to be tazed?:

"Sir, if you do not comply, you will be tazed."
"I did nothing wrong!!!"
"Sir, if you do not comply, you will be tazed."
"I have a right to be here!!"
"Sir, if you do not comply, you will be tazed."
"Your actions are illegal!!!"
"Sir, you are absolutely right. Continue."

I don't think so. Once he warns you that you are going to be tazed, the battle is already lost and you need to focus on the war.

MotionMan