Man verbally threatens another, gets choked to death during physical altercation

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Londo_Jowo

Lifer
Jan 31, 2010
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londojowo.hypermart.net
Shall we be fair and include some more relevant information:



I'm sure there's some other fun tidbits in there, or some other applicable statute, too: http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/SOTWDocs/PE/htm/PE.9.htm

I think one could argue that a serious threat against the lives of your family would constitute the beginning of an attempt to commit the offense, or that the offense was imminent.

Nope, the person saying "I will kill you and your family" Or "I rape you" is a verbal threat/provocation. You need to learn what imminent commission means, unless they have the means and begin to act on said threat or provocation use of force would not be justified.
 

mrjminer

Platinum Member
Dec 2, 2005
2,739
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Nope, the person saying "I will kill you and your family" Or "I rape you" is a verbal threat/provocation. You need to learn what imminent commission means, unless they have the means and begin to act on said threat or provocation use of force would not be justified.

Could you reference the set of laws that is suiting your argument now since you are apparently not even basing your argument on the legal subsection you cherry-picked from a variety of other applicable laws contrary to what you claim to be fact?

Or are you continuing with your grossly incorrect exaggeration of the term "verbal provocation" under the assumption that your definition of it applies since it is not explicitly defined by the statute?

Clarity is required
 

Londo_Jowo

Lifer
Jan 31, 2010
17,303
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londojowo.hypermart.net
Could you reference the set of laws that is suiting your argument now since you are apparently not even basing your argument on the legal subsection you cherry-picked from a variety of other applicable laws contrary to what you claim to be fact?

Or are you continuing with your grossly incorrect exaggeration of the term "verbal provocation" under the assumption that your definition of it applies since it is not explicitly defined by the statute?

Here's a lawyer's take of the law of self defense. This is same exact thing I was taught during my Concealed Handgun License class here in Texas, I was also taught the same thing when I got my Concealed Weapons Permit in Virginia.

The Law on Self-Defense

In sum, a person can defend herself using force against someone else, only to the extent that this force is necessary for protection. Physical force is never permissible in law if it is used while the person defending herself is carrying out a crime. The self defense law will not enable a person to use force as a reaction to someone verbally abusing them. Self defense law does not enable a person to have provoked the fight in the first place.

Let’s take the example of Jeff and Bob.

Example 1: Jeff is walking down the road. Bob is walking towards Jeff. Bob takes out a knife and points it at Jeff while he runs at him aggressively. Jeff did not provoke Bob to do this, but he thinks Bob is going to stab him, or cut him. Jeff is permitted to take out a knife in his own defense because he is not the aggressor. It is also possible, depending the specific facts, that Jeff could take out a gun as well since, Bob has displayed a deadly weapon (the knife).

Example 2: Bob is running toward Jeff. Jeff does not know Bob. Jeff takes out a gun, and shoots Bob, killng him. This scenario would not enable Jeff to successfully use self defense during his murder trial. It was not reasonable for Jeff to believe he needed to shoot Bob. The measure of force was not reasonable. It is not clear given this example whether any force was necessary at all. A person can only use force against another when there is a clear imminent threat of bodily harm or death.

Example 3: On July 28th, 2012, Jeff tells Bob he is going to kill Bob. Bob sees Jeff with a loaded gun on the same day. Jeff enters the premises, and Bob thinks Jeff still has the loaded gun. Bob can shoot Jeff and raise Self Defense during his case.

Example 4: Bob is driving Jeff home. Jeff threatens to kill Bob and tells him that he has a gun under the car floorboard. Jeff then begins grabbing at Bob. Bob pulls car over and shoots Jeff. Self defense can be raised in this situation.

Example 5: Medical examiner testifies that Bob was stabbed 52 times all over his body. Jeff raises self defense at his trial. Self defense law will not protect Jeff in this circumstance because 52 stabbings are not “reasonably necessary” to protect oneself. The only force permitted is the minimum amount of force necessary to prevent the imminent bodily harm or death.

It should be noted that Baker’s Texas Penal Code Handbook from 2008 clearly indicates that more often than not in Texas, a defendant fails to succeed in using the self defense law to get out of the criminal charges. Self defense it extremely fact dependent. All of the surrounding circumstances will be assessed by the jury when they are deciding whether the use of force was permissible under the self defense law. For instance, killing someone and then afterwards acting casually about it, can lead to a jury finding that you were not a victim employing self defense, but rather an aggressor trying to hide behind the self defense law. How a person acts before, during and after the assaultive event will be looked at with a microscope by an able jury.
 

mrjminer

Platinum Member
Dec 2, 2005
2,739
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Here's a lawyer's take of the law of self defense. This is same exact thing I was taught during my Concealed Handgun License class here in Texas, I was also taught the same thing when I got my Concealed Weapons Permit in Virginia.

If you carefully read what you posted, I think you will see the point I am making.
 
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Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
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It was in a video from the state and talked about for over an hour in class. The aspects were made very clear.

If the threat is imminent - are they close enough to carry out the threat or coming towards you?
Is the threat capable - can they physically carry out the threat? One guy bigger than you or multiple people/disparity of force?
Is the threat clear/believable - this is where direct words like "I'm going to kill you", "I'm going to break your neck" make the assailants intentions clear and that they mean to do so right now

Of course, the caveat was always "It's a lot better for you if they have a weapon of any kind, even a rock"

What you think the law says, and what a jury will likely think the law says, are two very different things. Try to remember that when you're standing in front of one.
 

Londo_Jowo

Lifer
Jan 31, 2010
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londojowo.hypermart.net
If you carefully read what you posted, I think you will see the point I am making.

Here's what you said:

I think one could argue that a serious threat against the lives of your family would constitute the beginning of an attempt to commit the offense, or that the offense was imminent.

A person could say "I'm going to kill you and your family" and as long as they don't make any moves or display a weapon in a threatening manner towards you/your family members, you are not allowed to use force against that person as by the law the threat would be considered to be Verbal Provocation.

Texas law is clear concerning the use of force against Verbal Provocation.

Sec. 9.31. SELF-DEFENSE
2.(b) The use of force against another is not justified:
(1) in response to verbal provocation alone
 

mrjminer

Platinum Member
Dec 2, 2005
2,739
16
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Here's what you said:



A person could say "I'm going to kill you and your family" and as long as they don't make any moves or display a weapon in a threatening manner towards you/your family members, you are not allowed to use force against that person as by the law the threat would be considered to be Verbal Provocation.

Texas law is clear concerning the use of force against Verbal Provocation.

I know what I said, but I don't think that you do.

Perhaps you should address one of the many points I've brought up about why you are incorrect before just repeating the same thing; it's already clear how you have personally chosen to define "verbal provocation" in ignorance of the rule of law. I can understand why your logical flaw exists based on the text you were given from your handgun classes, but, again, read it carefully and you will see why you are incorrect.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
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Here's what you said:



A person could say "I'm going to kill you and your family" and as long as they don't make any moves or display a weapon in a threatening manner towards you/your family members, you are not allowed to use force against that person as by the law the threat would be considered to be Verbal Provocation.

Texas law is clear concerning the use of force against Verbal Provocation.

That's verbal provocation, that doesn't include Assault. Assault is a crime.
 

Londo_Jowo

Lifer
Jan 31, 2010
17,303
158
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londojowo.hypermart.net
I know what I said, but I don't think that you do.

Perhaps you should address one of the many points I've brought up about why you are incorrect before just repeating the same thing; it's already clear how you have personally chosen to define "verbal provocation" in ignorance of the rule of law. I can understand why your logical flaw exists based on the text you were given from your handgun classes, but, again, read it carefully and you will see why you are incorrect.

I guess the retired police officer that taught the course and the lawyer he had come in to explain use of force laws were ignorant of Texas law. They both explained it as I have presented it in my posts.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
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Well duh??? No one has said assault wasn't a crime. In the event of assault you're allowed to use reasonable force to protect yourself.

Saying "I'm going to kill you" with the ability to carry out that imminent threat is assault.
 

MixMasterTang

Diamond Member
Jul 23, 2001
3,167
176
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Saying "I'm going to kill you" with the ability to carry out that imminent threat is assault.

Have fun in jail when your wet dream finally comes true and you get to shoot a Black gay Muslim because they said "Jihad" while looking at you.
 

mrjminer

Platinum Member
Dec 2, 2005
2,739
16
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I guess the retired police officer that taught the course and the lawyer he had come in to explain use of force laws were ignorant of Texas law. They both explained it as I have presented it in my posts.

Ok, I'll do it for you since you're incapable or unwilling to see or admit your fault, but then I'm not going to waste my time further:

some opinion you posted thinking it's the law said:
The Law on Self-Defense

In sum, a person can defend herself using force against someone else, only to the extent that this force is necessary for protection. Physical force is never permissible in law if it is used while the person defending herself is carrying out a crime. The self defense law will not enable a person to use force as a reaction to someone verbally abusing (you bolded this, but here you falsely equate "verbally abusing" to "the perception of an imminent threat of death from a credible source") them. Self defense law does not enable a person to have provoked the fight in the first place.

Let’s take the example of Jeff and Bob.

Example 1: Jeff is walking down the road. Bob is walking towards Jeff. Bob takes out a knife and points it at Jeff while he runs at him aggressively. Jeff did not provoke Bob to do this, but he thinks Bob is going to stab him, or cut him. Jeff is permitted to take out a knife in his own defense because he is not the aggressor. It is also possible, depending the specific facts, that Jeff could take out a gun as well since, Bob has displayed a deadly weapon (the knife).

Example 2: Bob is running toward Jeff. Jeff does not know Bob. Jeff takes out a gun, and shoots Bob, killng him. This scenario would not enable Jeff to successfully use self defense during his murder trial. It was not reasonable for Jeff to believe he needed to shoot Bob. The measure of force was not reasonable. It is not clear given this example whether any force was necessary at all. A person can only use force against another when there is a clear imminent threat of bodily harm or death (you bolded this, but obviously chose to actually ignore it since it explicitly points out that you are wrong. Also, the scenario doesn't apply to the situation at hand, so I suppose this is just your yet another attempt to "cherry-pick" various sentences or phrases to try to prove that which is unable to be proven?).

Example 3: On July 28th, 2012, Jeff tells Bob he is going to kill Bob. Bob sees Jeff with a loaded gun on the same day. Jeff enters the premises, and Bob thinks Jeff still has the loaded gun. Bob can shoot Jeff and raise Self Defense during his case.

Example 4: Bob is driving Jeff home. Jeff threatens to kill Bob and tells him that he has a gun under the car floorboard. Jeff then begins grabbing at Bob. Bob pulls car over and shoots Jeff. Self defense can be raised in this situation.

Example 5: Medical examiner testifies that Bob was stabbed 52 times all over his body. Jeff raises self defense at his trial. Self defense law will not protect Jeff in this circumstance because 52 stabbings are not “reasonably necessary” to protect oneself. The only force permitted is the minimum amount of force necessary to prevent the imminent bodily harm or death (you chose to ignore this, but "minimum amount of force necessary..." obviously indicates that the amount of force able to be used is not definitive beyond the minimum applicable based on the situation).

It should be noted that Baker’s Texas Penal Code Handbook from 2008 clearly indicates that more often than not (in other words, not always)in Texas, a defendant fails to succeed in using the self defense law to get out of the criminal charges. Self defense it extremely fact dependent. All of the surrounding circumstances will be assessed by the jury when they are deciding whether the use of force was permissible under the self defense law (pretty self explanatory). For instance, killing someone and then afterwards acting casually about it, can lead to a jury finding that you were not a victim employing self defense, but rather an aggressor trying to hide behind the self defense law. How a person acts (notice the omission of attributing the word "acts" to "the person acting in self-defense" -- because it applies to both parties) before, during and after the assaultive event will be looked at with a microscope by an able jury.

Also, the fact that you prefaced posting this while exclaiming it's just a lawyer's take (ie: not the law) and that you attempted to use an ethos-based argument (sheriff, lawyer, and mandated handgun safety course in not one, but two states)to give credibility to your patently false claims, despite the parties' reputations you attempt to exploit not even making the claims you are claiming they claimed to support your claim.
 
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Londo_Jowo

Lifer
Jan 31, 2010
17,303
158
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londojowo.hypermart.net
Ok, I'll do it for you since you're incapable or unwilling to see or admit your fault, but then I'm not going to waste my time further:

Also, the fact that you prefaced posting this while exclaiming it's just a lawyer's take (ie: not the law) and that you attempted to use an ethos-based argument to give credibility to your patently false claims, despite the parties' reputations you attempt to exploit not even making the claims you are claiming they claimed to support your claim.

You've done nothing to disprove what I have stated. It's apparent you're as dense as Spidey when it comes to using force against someone making a verbal threat.
 

MixMasterTang

Diamond Member
Jul 23, 2001
3,167
176
106
Ok, I'll do it for you since you're incapable or unwilling to see or admit your fault, but then I'm not going to waste my time further:



Also, the fact that you prefaced posting this while exclaiming it's just a lawyer's take (ie: not the law) and that you attempted to use an ethos-based argument (sheriff, lawyer, and mandated handgun safety course in not one, but two states)to give credibility to your patently false claims, despite the parties' reputations you attempt to exploit not even making the claims you are claiming they claimed to support your claim.

Law is open to interpretation, if you're so convinced you are right then I am sure there are many previous cases where people have been found innocent for shooting someone based on a threat and threat alone. I am sure I am not the only one that would be very interested to read details on these cases.
 

mrjminer

Platinum Member
Dec 2, 2005
2,739
16
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Law is open to interpretation, if you're so convinced you are right then I am sure there are many previous cases where people have been found innocent for shooting someone based on a threat and threat alone. I am sure I am not the only one that would be very interested to read details on these cases.

Actually, you are wrong. The law has no interpretation in it whatsoever. Just ask Londo and he can enlighten you as to how his opinions are regularly substituted in his selected subsections of the law, then applied to circumstances as he arbitrarily deems fit.
 

Londo_Jowo

Lifer
Jan 31, 2010
17,303
158
106
londojowo.hypermart.net
So based on Spidey and mrjminer the following would be okay:

Person A says to Person B "I'm going to kill you and your family" in a heated argument and then turns to walks away, it's okay for Person A to shoot Person B as Person A was verbally assaulted by Person B.
 

RampantAndroid

Diamond Member
Jun 27, 2004
6,591
3
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Obviously, you know little about reading and understanding, and aren't worth debating with.

Thanks for posting a link supporting exactly my point the entire time, though.

You tried to argue that a verbal threat of "I'll get you next time, Inspector Gadget!" constitutes a reason for Inspector Gadget to kill Dr. Claw?

Yeah, no. A threat isn't sufficient, and you're wrong. There is no IMMINENT threat with a verbal threat. A verbal threat as they pull a knife, gun, run at you and so forth however DO present imminent threat.

Also, much of law is open to be bent or twisted around as a judge sees fit. And another judge can overturn it.
 

JumBie

Golden Member
May 2, 2011
1,646
3
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So simple, don't threaten a man's life and you have nothing to worry about.

Maybe you need some anger management classes? "Everyone" certainly does not go around threatening people's lives.

The only person promoting violence is you. You're trying to say it's ok for people to go around threatening everyone. Sounds like you're the scared one, maybe you make a habit of behaving this way.

When did I ever specifically say its okay to threaten someone? If the message in that reply went over your head then I am not sure what else I can say to make it any clearer. I am ANTI-VIOLENCE....do you know what that means? It means, that if someone verbally assaults you or threatens you, physical violence, or murder is not the answer. Have you ever been in an argument in your life? Probably not, considering you advocate the use of deadly force over a verbal dispute, it must mean you don't get out much. I have probably had drunk guys threaten my life 100 times, it happens all the times at bars, and clubs. Do I decide to choke the guy out? Or maybe go and grab my shotgun and blow his head off? No, you want to know why? Because 99% of the time people talk shit out of there asses, no one really means any harm, but words get tossed around. Does someone deserve to die for making a death threat? If you answer yes, please go and have a psychological assessment, you may be a psychopath.
 
Sep 7, 2009
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<snip>

I have probably had drunk guys threaten my life 100 times, it happens all the times at bars, and clubs.

<snip>


The problem is you.

I now understand why it makes you nervous that self defense laws are so strong in this country. You're going to get yourself killed one day, by someone who doesn't care about the laws in your modern progressive state.

If you're an adult and constantly having your life threatened you need to evaluate your behaviour. Based on your constant threats, cussing, and inability to control your temper on the forums I'm seriously not surprised it worries you that someone can very easily just shoot you dead.


I suggest you stay out of the 30+ states that strongly support self defense. Stay in one of the few remaining duty to retreat states.
 
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Sep 7, 2009
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You guys need to be attacking the issue and not each other.


Some of these people are the issue.

This mentality that it's ok to live your life via physical threats and intimidating people is dangerous.

Sure, it's technically legal in some states, but eventually these psychos are going to run across another psycho who doesn't care about the law... Or make these mistakes in the wrong state.