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Man Sentenced To 3 Years Prison For Denying Holocaust

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/21/international/europe/21austria.html

VIENNA, Feb. 20 (AP) ? The British historian David Irving on Monday pleaded guilty to denying the Holocaust and was sentenced to three years in prison. He conceded that he was wrong when he said there were no Nazi gas chambers at the Auschwitz death camp.

Mr. Irving, handcuffed and wearing a navy blue suit, arrived in court carrying a copy of one of his books, "Hitler's War," which challenges the extent of the Holocaust.

"I made a mistake when I said there were no gas chambers at Auschwitz," he told the court before his sentencing, at which he faced up to 10 years in prison.

"In no way did I deny the killings of millions of people by the Nazis," testified Mr. Irving, who has written nearly 30 books.

He also expressed sorrow "for all the innocent people who died during the Second World War."

Mr. Irving's lawyer, Elmar Kresbach, immediately announced that he would appeal the sentence.

"I consider the verdict a little too stringent," he said. "I would say it's a bit of a message trial."

Mr. Irving appeared shocked as the sentence was read. Moments later, an elderly man who identified himself as a family friend called out, "Stay strong, David! Stay strong!" The man was escorted from the courtroom.

Mr. Irving, 67, has been in custody since Nov. 11, when he was arrested in the southern province of Styria on charges stemming from two speeches he gave in Austria in 1989 in which he was accused of denying the Nazis' annihilation of six million Jews. He has contended that most of those who died at camps like Auschwitz were not executed, but instead succumbed to diseases like typhus.

He was denied bail by a Vienna court, which said there was a risk he would flee the country. He was convicted under a 1992 law, which applies to "whoever denies, grossly plays down, approves or tries to excuse the National Socialist genocide or other National Socialist crimes against humanity in a print publication, in broadcast or other media."

Mr. Irving's trial came during a period of intense debate in Europe over freedom of expression, after European newspapers printed caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad that set off deadly protests worldwide.

Seems a little harsh to me, but he got what was coming I guess.
 
I have a degree in history and this really disturbs me. There is a peer review process when it comes to research so this guys crap would be invalidated anyway, but sending someone to jail for expressing an opinion (no matter how wrong) violates the basic principles of a free society.

 
Originally posted by: wvtalbot
I have a degree in history and this really disturbs me. There is a peer review process when it comes to research so this guys crap would be invalidated anyway, but sending someone to jail for expressing an opinion (no matter how wrong) violates the basic principles of a free society.

Especially after the European community has spent the past couple weeks touting their free speech to the ME.
 
There is a struggle going on to define the boundaries between "free speech" and "hate crimes"

IMO a "hate crime" is when someone's speech directly incites violence, which would cause a crime thus the originator of the speech is liable for that crime. Of course common sense must be applied whether this directly incited violence. Telling people to boycott Nike is not the same as telling them to go firebomb their outlet store.

In America I am free to explore and question "common historical facts." Such as who really drafted the Monroe Doctrine, and whether trail of tears ever occured. Questioning the existence of the trail of tears is not the same as saying somebody should go shoot some Cherokee decendants.

However, in Europe they have created laws saying you cannot question any facts about the Holocaust. If you do you will be prosocuted as if you told people to go start their own concentration camps.

Unfortunately the US is moving closer and closer to the Europeans in this area regarding morally touchy. IIRC a christian group was prosecuted for opposing homosexual lifestyles under the new hate laws at their university.
 
And the EU just chastised the US for imprisoning people in Gitmo, even though we are still at war with the armies they served. I wonder what the Gitmo detainees think about the holocaust?
 
Just 'coz Europe created a law that says you cannot question the fact that the Holocaust exist, does it not make it right.

And no, this has nothing to do with 'hate crime'. This is a clear violation of the man's right to free speech.

Talk about double standards.
 
Originally posted by: thereds
Just 'coz Europe created a law that says you cannot question the fact that the Holocaust exist, does it not make it right.

And no, this has nothing to do with 'hate crime'. This is a clear violation of the man's right to free speech.

Talk about double standards.


Please tell me you are joking? The US has a right ot free speech, not the WORLD. just because it is legal here does not apply to the other 90+% of the people of this planet.


And good. I hate idiots that say the holocaust never happened. My grandmother was in germany after WW2 and even adopted my step mom while there. Trust me, IT HAPPENED. She went to some of the camps, even the one in schindler's list.

 
It's pretty damn ironic that they ban denying the holocaust. Isn't that counter productive? In a few generations people are going to start thinking the holocaust didn't happen, because they are banned from denying it..
 
Originally posted by: Marlin1975
Originally posted by: thereds
Just 'coz Europe created a law that says you cannot question the fact that the Holocaust exist, does it not make it right.

And no, this has nothing to do with 'hate crime'. This is a clear violation of the man's right to free speech.

Talk about double standards.


Please tell me you are joking? The US has a right ot free speech, not the WORLD. just because it is legal here does not apply to the other 90+% of the people of this planet.


And good. I hate idiots that say the holocaust never happened. My grandmother was in germany after WW2 and even adopted my step mom while there. Trust me, IT HAPPENED. She went to some of the camps, even the one in schindler's list.


But the fact is the jailing for someone for saying it didn't happen is akin to the thinking of the Nazis who created the concentration camps in the first place.
 
Originally posted by: thereds
Just 'coz Europe created a law that says you cannot question the fact that the Holocaust exist, does it not make it right.

And no, this has nothing to do with 'hate crime'. This is a clear violation of the man's right to free speech.

Talk about double standards.

These countries have laws against holocause denial:
Austria
Belgium
Czech Republic
France
Germany
Israel
Lithuania
Poland
Romania
Slovakia
Switzerland

which doesn't make up ALL of Europe.
 
Originally posted by: dabuddha
What did he do exactly that deserves imprisonment?

Tried to use freedom of speech....

Why can't anyone be critical of the Holocaust? There seems to be a lot of guilt over it in various European countries.... this just gives more credence to Ahmadejin's comments about Europe feeling guilty over what happened to Jews in WWII. One feels guilty only when one has done something wrong......
 
Originally posted by: wvtalbot
Originally posted by: Marlin1975
Originally posted by: thereds
Just 'coz Europe created a law that says you cannot question the fact that the Holocaust exist, does it not make it right.

And no, this has nothing to do with 'hate crime'. This is a clear violation of the man's right to free speech.

Talk about double standards.


Please tell me you are joking? The US has a right ot free speech, not the WORLD. just because it is legal here does not apply to the other 90+% of the people of this planet.


And good. I hate idiots that say the holocaust never happened. My grandmother was in germany after WW2 and even adopted my step mom while there. Trust me, IT HAPPENED. She went to some of the camps, even the one in schindler's list.


But the fact is the jailing for someone for saying it didn't happen is akin to the thinking of the Nazis who created the concentration camps in the first place.



No it is not. Its not even close. Its like saying FIRE in a small room and when people get hurt from what was said not charging the person because its "free speech".
 
Originally posted by: Marlin1975
Originally posted by: thereds
Just 'coz Europe created a law that says you cannot question the fact that the Holocaust exist, does it not make it right.

And no, this has nothing to do with 'hate crime'. This is a clear violation of the man's right to free speech.

Talk about double standards.


Please tell me you are joking? The US has a right ot free speech, not the WORLD. just because it is legal here does not apply to the other 90+% of the people of this planet.


And good. I hate idiots that say the holocaust never happened. My grandmother was in germany after WW2 and even adopted my step mom while there. Trust me, IT HAPPENED. She went to some of the camps, even the one in schindler's list.

The world should have the right to speak freely. Just because it isn't written in some countries law doesn't mean anything. Not all laws/rules are right.
 
Originally posted by: Marlin1975
Originally posted by: thereds
Just 'coz Europe created a law that says you cannot question the fact that the Holocaust exist, does it not make it right.

And no, this has nothing to do with 'hate crime'. This is a clear violation of the man's right to free speech.

Talk about double standards.


Please tell me you are joking? The US has a right ot free speech, not the WORLD. just because it is legal here does not apply to the other 90+% of the people of this planet.


And good. I hate idiots that say the holocaust never happened. My grandmother was in germany after WW2 and even adopted my step mom while there. Trust me, IT HAPPENED. She went to some of the camps, even the one in schindler's list.

If it happened, then why not convince the man that he is wrong instead of imprisoning him. This is an obvious display of double standards with regards to the freedom of speech Europe has been touting to the Muslims over the cartoon fiasco.
 
Originally posted by: Marlin1975
Originally posted by: wvtalbot
Originally posted by: Marlin1975
Originally posted by: thereds
Just 'coz Europe created a law that says you cannot question the fact that the Holocaust exist, does it not make it right.

And no, this has nothing to do with 'hate crime'. This is a clear violation of the man's right to free speech.

Talk about double standards.


Please tell me you are joking? The US has a right ot free speech, not the WORLD. just because it is legal here does not apply to the other 90+% of the people of this planet.


And good. I hate idiots that say the holocaust never happened. My grandmother was in germany after WW2 and even adopted my step mom while there. Trust me, IT HAPPENED. She went to some of the camps, even the one in schindler's list.


But the fact is the jailing for someone for saying it didn't happen is akin to the thinking of the Nazis who created the concentration camps in the first place.



No it is not. Its not even close. Its like saying FIRE in a small room and when people get hurt from what was said not charging the person because its "free speech".

But the fact is no one is physically injured by a guy saying the holocaust did not happen, the guy is disgusting for sure but remember what voltaire said? "I may disagree with what you say, but I will fight to the death for your right to say it."
 
Originally posted by: asadasif
Originally posted by: Marlin1975
Originally posted by: thereds
Just 'coz Europe created a law that says you cannot question the fact that the Holocaust exist, does it not make it right.

And no, this has nothing to do with 'hate crime'. This is a clear violation of the man's right to free speech.

Talk about double standards.


Please tell me you are joking? The US has a right ot free speech, not the WORLD. just because it is legal here does not apply to the other 90+% of the people of this planet.


And good. I hate idiots that say the holocaust never happened. My grandmother was in germany after WW2 and even adopted my step mom while there. Trust me, IT HAPPENED. She went to some of the camps, even the one in schindler's list.

If it happened, then why not convince the man that he is wrong instead of imprisoning him. This is an obvious display of double standards with regards to the freedom of speech Europe has been touting to the Muslims over the cartoon fiasco.

Because somepeople will not believe anything even if you show it to their face.

Like trying to tell these people that the holocaust happend...
People that don;t think the holocaust happened



 
Originally posted by: Marlin1975
Originally posted by: wvtalbot
Originally posted by: Marlin1975
Originally posted by: thereds
Just 'coz Europe created a law that says you cannot question the fact that the Holocaust exist, does it not make it right.

And no, this has nothing to do with 'hate crime'. This is a clear violation of the man's right to free speech.

Talk about double standards.


Please tell me you are joking? The US has a right ot free speech, not the WORLD. just because it is legal here does not apply to the other 90+% of the people of this planet.


And good. I hate idiots that say the holocaust never happened. My grandmother was in germany after WW2 and even adopted my step mom while there. Trust me, IT HAPPENED. She went to some of the camps, even the one in schindler's list.


But the fact is the jailing for someone for saying it didn't happen is akin to the thinking of the Nazis who created the concentration camps in the first place.



No it is not. Its not even close. Its like saying FIRE in a small room and when people get hurt from what was said not charging the person because its "free speech".

What a horrible comparison.

People were not physically injured by his claims, absurd as the vast majority know they are.


 
Originally posted by: Marlin1975
Originally posted by: asadasif
Originally posted by: Marlin1975
Originally posted by: thereds
Just 'coz Europe created a law that says you cannot question the fact that the Holocaust exist, does it not make it right.

And no, this has nothing to do with 'hate crime'. This is a clear violation of the man's right to free speech.

Talk about double standards.


Please tell me you are joking? The US has a right ot free speech, not the WORLD. just because it is legal here does not apply to the other 90+% of the people of this planet.


And good. I hate idiots that say the holocaust never happened. My grandmother was in germany after WW2 and even adopted my step mom while there. Trust me, IT HAPPENED. She went to some of the camps, even the one in schindler's list.

If it happened, then why not convince the man that he is wrong instead of imprisoning him. This is an obvious display of double standards with regards to the freedom of speech Europe has been touting to the Muslims over the cartoon fiasco.

Because somepeople will not believe anything even if you show it to their face.

Like trying to tell these people that the holocaust happend...
People that don;t think the holocaust happened

Jesus Marlin you are a fvcking socialist POS
 
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