Man denied $5 million lottery win

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Paladin3

Diamond Member
Mar 5, 2004
4,933
878
126
You keep harping on "PLAY", now isn't "PLAY" the one scratching off the ticket and claiming the prize? Or is their opinion that cashing in several other scratch tickets to buy the new winning one the illegality?
Dance and play with words all you want. You must be 18 to buy any kind of California lottery ticket and the kid wasn't. A minor buying age restricted items "for their parents" is a crime. Dad asking his minor child to buy lottery tickets for him is a crime.

Sounds to me like you are one of those people who thinks government is out to cheat folks and you have a hard-on to see California pay out on this illegally purchase lottery scratch ticket. So much so that you are making some idiotic arguments. Go to bed and get a good night's sleep. Maybe in the morning you will be thinking more clearly.
 
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Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
70,157
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www.anyf.ca
When we went down south on a family vacation we went to a casino at some point. At some later point we went to an arcade to let the kids go play on the games. I played some too. Then it dawned on me, arcades are basically casinos for kids. Replace the slot machines with pin ball and various video games and tokens with tickets and it's basically the same idea lol.
 

umbrella39

Lifer
Jun 11, 2004
13,816
1,126
126
Repay??? How about they prosecute the dad for allowing his kid to gamble while underage?

Some of you folks have wacky morals and even wackier ideas about what's lawful.

... and some can neither read nor understand the meaning of certain words
 
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Nov 8, 2012
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When we went down south on a family vacation we went to a casino at some point. At some later point we went to an arcade to let the kids go play on the games. I played some too. Then it dawned on me, arcades are basically casinos for kids. Replace the slot machines with pin ball and various video games and tokens with tickets and it's basically the same idea lol.

Hmmm, I wouldn't equate that with every game persay.

It's namely the ones where you either get a large sum of tickets (e.g. hit the impossible target for 500 tickets) or games such as the claw machine. They are actually pre-programmed so that regardless of if you hit something spot on it will purposefully not let you win. So in the end, it's simply a game of probability, not skill - similar to a slot machine. Those I equate with gambling, especially because you win physical items. What really occurs is when you play that claw machine you put the claw either right on or right next to it - and it gives the kid that shot of dopamine that makes them crave it with the "OH MY GOD I WAS SO CLOSE! Let me play just one more time and I'll get it!" that is gambling, of all things.

If you disagree and think that the above is perfectly suitable for a kid but a scratch-off isn't you're simply butt-fucking retarded.

I would put something like, say, a racing game in a different division - because with that you don't expect any physical prize - you're simply playing the game for fun - such as if you were to rent an actual go-cart and do a race.
 

Paladin3

Diamond Member
Mar 5, 2004
4,933
878
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Hmmm, I wouldn't equate that with every game persay.

It's namely the ones where you either get a large sum of tickets (e.g. hit the impossible target for 500 tickets) or games such as the claw machine. They are actually pre-programmed so that regardless of if you hit something spot on it will purposefully not let you win. So in the end, it's simply a game of probability, not skill - similar to a slot machine. Those I equate with gambling, especially because you win physical items. What really occurs is when you play that claw machine you put the claw either right on or right next to it - and it gives the kid that shot of dopamine that makes them crave it with the "OH MY GOD I WAS SO CLOSE! Let me play just one more time and I'll get it!" that is gambling, of all things.

If you disagree and think that the above is perfectly suitable for a kid but a scratch-off isn't you're simply butt-fucking retarded.

I would put something like, say, a racing game in a different division - because with that you don't expect any physical prize - you're simply playing the game for fun - such as if you were to rent an actual go-cart and do a race.

You are absolutely right about some of those games being pre-programmed to always lose. My wife and I met while teens working in the games and attractions department of a Six Flags theme park. She went on to manage in Six Flags parks for almost 25 years.

Games of skill are not gambling (games of chance) because when set up correctly it is the player's skill and only the players skill that determines a win or loss. Six Flags and other large skill games operators are monitored by law enforcement to ensure their games aren't rigged. I had my share of visits from the Los Angeles Police Vice Division back when I worked there. Smaller operators don't get nearly as much LE attention and can and often do get away with rigging their games like the impossible shot type games you mention.

Games like claw machines, Stacker, Spin Cycle, and others can all be programmed to disallow any win until the machine has taken in a predetermined amount of money. Only after the machine steals it's $$$ quota will it turn off the always lose mode and is winning even possible. Once it vends a prize to a sufficiently skilled player it's back into impossible mode until it steals enough $$$ to allow another win.

Legit operators hate games set this way. It's illegal, unethical and downright bad for business. We want enough players to win so that people keep playing, but no so many that we lose money. We accomplish this by balancing the difficulty of the game with the value of the prize, but always it is the skill of the player that determines if they win or not.

Tip: if you want to know how hard a game of skill is to win just look at the value of the prize. Pro-Tip: Unless it's a reputable games operator and you see players regularly winning just walk away.

At the other end of the spectrum is gambling or games of chance like scratcher or lottery tickets. The prize is so huge because so many folks play and so few win. And no amount of skill will every improve your odds of winning.
 

Pick2

Golden Member
Feb 14, 2017
1,058
1,507
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The states will use any means possible to not pay. the lottery is a scam. It is no different then the mob running a numbers racket back in the day.
 

Paladin3

Diamond Member
Mar 5, 2004
4,933
878
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The states will use any means possible to not pay. the lottery is a scam. It is no different then the mob running a numbers racket back in the day.
Yeah, upholding the law that you must be an adult to play the lottery is just like organized crime. Sorry, but I've gotta call you out on this level of stupidity.
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
70,157
13,567
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www.anyf.ca
Yeah, upholding the law that you must be an adult to play the lottery is just like organized crime. Sorry, but I've gotta call you out on this level of stupidity.

They just twisted the law to their advantage here. The reality is, it was the dad buying it, the fact that the kid may have been involved in the transaction is just semantics. The tickets were not for the kid, it was for the dad. It's like giving your car keys to your kid to go start your car, you are not intending on your kid actually driving underage and there's no intent to cause any kind of harm.

The law system seems to be designed to trap people, there's so many laws and regulations about every little thing now days and the way they are enforced makes them super easy to break by accident. Even if you are aware of a certain law you can easily break it without even realizing because something you would not consider (like getting kid to perform part of a transaction) to even be a violation. That is just BS really that they design it this way.

On similar subject there's actually a bylaw here about basketball nets. You're not suppose to place them on the front yard easement, I think 6 feet from sidewalk. It's one of those things that most people do anyway, but there is this lady going around reporting all the basketball nets because she has nothing better to do. Stuff like this is just ridiculous, these laws should not even exist. Stop catering to the snowflakes that complain about every little thing.
 

BudAshes

Lifer
Jul 20, 2003
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Deceptive?!?!?! It's posted *everywhere* that you have to be 18 to play the CA lottery. It's not exactly a secret, and ignorance of the law is never a valid legal defense. I've seen people wait hours in line to buy a scratcher or lottery ticket, nobody needs to be tricked into buying one.

Say it with me---> "PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY"

If we are playing up personal responsibility then we should get rid of the lotto altogether. It's a stupid tax that gives people false hope.
 

J.Wilkins

Platinum Member
Jun 5, 2017
2,681
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Games of skill are not gambling

Well that is just not the case. I have the skill to pick winners by investigating a few things about them, doesn't mean that I'm not gambling when I'm making my bets.

Also, isn't it illegal to *sell* lottery tickets to minors? Isn't the store clerk actually defrauding the kid by illegally selling him something of 0 value?
 

Paladin3

Diamond Member
Mar 5, 2004
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878
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If we are playing up personal responsibility then we should get rid of the lotto altogether. It's a stupid tax that gives people false hope.

Personal responsibility = folks taking responsibility for their decisions and not expecting government to treat them like children. What you are proposing is the EXACT OPPOSITE of personal responsibility. Do you actually believe citizens need that level of protection and government needs to start thinking for them?
 

Paladin3

Diamond Member
Mar 5, 2004
4,933
878
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Well that is just not the case. I have the skill to pick winners by investigating a few things about them, doesn't mean that I'm not gambling when I'm making my bets.

Also, isn't it illegal to *sell* lottery tickets to minors? Isn't the store clerk actually defrauding the kid by illegally selling him something of 0 value?

"LOGIC" <----- Do you speak it?

Yes, the clerk was in the wrong by selling the minor lottery tickets and should face whatever sanctions someone who sells age restricted items normally would. Loss of license to sell such product and/or fine, I would expect.

The kid was also committing a crime when he bought the tickets and nothing the clerk did excuse that crime or makes the clerk responsible or liable for the kid/father's actions. If you even believe the father that the tickets were for him and he instructed his son to go buy them (a convenient lie to try and collect the money, IMHO) then he was committing a much larger crime by instructing his son to gamble underage.

NOBODY is "defrauded" when committing a crime because it didn't pay off, and the guy and his kid deserve nothing. I still say the father is guilty of corruption of a minor, or whatever charge comes from instructing a child to gamble. Would we even be having this conversation if the guy had told his kid to go buy him cigarettes or booze or a gun?

Your sports betting analogy is a flawed, too. Betting on sports is gambling and has been ruled so by courts in this country since the first bet was placed. Games of skill legally fall into a different category as I have tried to explain. If you want to go read the actual laws and regulations then please feel free to google it. Or ask a minor to place a bet for you and then have a judge explain it to you.
 
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OutHouse

Lifer
Jun 5, 2000
36,410
616
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he sent his 16 year old kid in to illegally gamble when he asked him to buy the lottery tickets. You can't have a minor child buy you age restricted items. No judge in this world is going to reward a crime, even one this minor.

thats it, bottom line its underage gambling. lucky they dont get a citation along with the store that sold the ticket.

really dont know what the argument is. the store selling to underage is no different if they sold beer or smokes.
 

BudAshes

Lifer
Jul 20, 2003
13,982
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Personal responsibility = folks taking responsibility for their decisions and not expecting government to treat them like children. What you are proposing is the EXACT OPPOSITE of personal responsibility. Do you actually believe citizens need that level of protection and government needs to start thinking for them?

Your reply makes little sense and hardly feels worthy of a reply, so I wont bother. Hopefully you will do better next time.
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
70,157
13,567
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www.anyf.ca
Because its gambling.

So is an arcade, or a claw game. Why is gambling age restricted, is probably what my question should have been.

So what if a kid decides he wants to gamble. It's all about self control. The government should stop trying to "protect" people from themselves.
 

Paladin3

Diamond Member
Mar 5, 2004
4,933
878
126
Your reply makes little sense and hardly feels worthy of a reply, so I wont bother. Hopefully you will do better next time.

GOVERNMENT TREATING YOU LIKE A CHILD AND TAKING AWAY EVERYTHING YOU COULD POSSIBLY HURT YOURSELF WITH = BAD. NO LOTTERY BECAUSE SOME IDIOT CAN'T BE RESPONSIBLE AND PLAY BY THE RULES = BAD.

It's insulting when you imply that keeping your minor child from gambling is too big a responsibility for the average father to handle. On top of that you feel the guy deserves monetary compensation??? I don't know if you have so little faith in your own abilities and judgement that you feel you need that level of government protection, but I'm not ready to give up my freedom and personal responsibilities just yet.
 

Paladin3

Diamond Member
Mar 5, 2004
4,933
878
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So is an arcade, or a claw game. Why is gambling age restricted, is probably what my question should have been.

So what if a kid decides he wants to gamble. It's all about self control. The government should stop trying to "protect" people from themselves.
Arcade, claw games and such are legally classified as games of skill and are not gambling. I can't convince you folks of these facts if you don't want to accept them, so please go Google the laws on it yourself. And, no, I'm not doing your research for you.

As to why kids can't gamble, it's because we live in a civilized society. Society has agreed via our laws and the democratic process that we will keep our young folks from participating in potentially dangerous activities until they reach the appropriate age and can decide for themselves. I don't see the problem here. Do you?
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
70,157
13,567
126
www.anyf.ca
Arcade, claw games and such are legally classified as games of skill and are not gambling. I can't convince you folks of these facts if you don't want to accept them, so please go Google the laws on it yourself. And, no, I'm not doing your research for you.

As to why kids can't gamble, it's because we live in a civilized society. Society has agreed via our laws and the democratic process that we will keep our young folks from participating in potentially dangerous activities until they reach the appropriate age and can decide for themselves. I don't see the problem here. Do you?

My point is that why do they pick and choose how they classify these things, there's no real logic to it. It's just that someone decided that one should be legal and the other isin't. it's just stupid, is all.

Back when I was a kid kids gambled all the time, ever heard of pogs? The only differnece is the law decided that certain types are not ok and certain types are. It's all based on semantics, and not common sense. The law in general tends to be that way.
 
Mar 16, 2005
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Why didn't the store check the kid's ID before selling him the lotto tickets?

Blame the clerk. Sue him for $5mil.
 

who?

Platinum Member
Sep 1, 2012
2,327
42
91
The mob paid numbers winners. They made money because the prize was 500 to 1 but the odds were 999 to 1.
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
70,157
13,567
126
www.anyf.ca
Why didn't the store check the kid's ID before selling him the lotto tickets?

Blame the clerk. Sue him for $5mil.

My guess is the clerk did not realize it would actually be considered a violation given the parent was around and logically the one paying/playing the ticket. Perhaps this is something they need to specify during training. If I was that dad from now on I'd get the kid to just stay at home if I buy a ticket lol. Can't take any chances.

Actually I would be curious how it would work out at a liquor store, say parents go in with their kid to buy a bottle of wine for themselves, but the kid is the one that hands the money, like dad hands the money to kid then kid hands to clerk. Would that fall under underage alcohol sales? Seems silly to me, but probably would. Though knowing the states my guess is kids are probably not even allowed in liquor stores. Can't traumatize those poor souls by letting them see all those glass bottles!
 

J.Wilkins

Platinum Member
Jun 5, 2017
2,681
640
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"LOGIC" <----- Do you speak it?

Indeed I do, but do you?

Yes, the clerk was in the wrong by selling the minor lottery tickets and should face whatever sanctions someone who sells age restricted items normally would. Loss of license to sell such product and/or fine, I would expect.

That answers the question whether it's illegal for a reseller to sell tickets to minors. It is illegal.

The kid was also committing a crime when he bought the tickets and nothing the clerk did excuse that crime or makes the clerk responsible or liable for the kid/father's actions. If you even believe the father that the tickets were for him and he instructed his son to go buy them (a convenient lie to try and collect the money, IMHO) then he was committing a much larger crime by instructing his son to gamble underage.

This has nothing what so ever to do with any argument I've made, you can't just make shit up and argue against it as a response to me, kid. Logic fail 1, strawman.

NOBODY is "defrauded" when committing a crime because it didn't pay off, and the guy and his kid deserve nothing. I still say the father is guilty of corruption of a minor, or whatever charge comes from instructing a child to gamble. Would we even be having this conversation if the guy had told his kid to go buy him cigarettes or booze or a gun?

Actually, I do believe that selling a ticket under the guise that the person buying it may receive winnings from it IS fraud and since it is the SELLERS DUTY to ensure that he does not sell to minors he is indeed defrauding them by selling them something of 0 value. IF the kid provides a fake ID, then the reseller have done their duty and the kid is the one defrauding the seller.

A gun or booze carries no potential winnings so the equivalence fails on that one, stick with the issue at hand and don't make false equivalences. Logic fail 2, false equivalence.

Your sports betting analogy is a flawed, too. Betting on sports is gambling and has been ruled so by courts in this country since the first bet was placed. Games of skill legally fall into a different category as I have tried to explain. If you want to go read the actual laws and regulations then please feel free to google it. Or ask a minor to place a bet for you and then have a judge explain it to you.

No, what you said was: "games of skill are not gambling" and you are now trying to weasel out of that statement by simply pronouncing that it's gambling without even recognizing that it's also a game of skill to be able to pick winners.
 

purbeast0

No Lifer
Sep 13, 2001
53,544
6,368
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My point is that why do they pick and choose how they classify these things, there's no real logic to it. It's just that someone decided that one should be legal and the other isin't. it's just stupid, is all.

Back when I was a kid kids gambled all the time, ever heard of pogs? The only differnece is the law decided that certain types are not ok and certain types are. It's all based on semantics, and not common sense. The law in general tends to be that way.
You keep comparing winning non-money prizes in these games to winning money via gambling.

The lottery and gambling in general is about money. Playing claw games and pog you are winning stuffed animals and more pogs.

Next you guys are going to say carnival games are a form of gambling.