Man Crushed by Steamroller On Orders of Chinese Officials

[finglobes]

Steamroll people who overuse quote function and kill good threads.

 

[Juror No. 8]

The article is correct. The state always owns the land of the people.

The same is true in the United States, of course. Very few people truly own their land here, and those are the rare few people with allodial title. Those without allodial title are really just tenants on the land since they have to pay perpetual property taxes, which is really just another way of saying "rent".

If you have to pay tax on something to "own" it, you really don't own it at all. At that point the person or entity you have to pay the tax to does. All you really "own" is a lease, which you can sell and/or transfer to another party. If you don't pay your rent/property tax, the government can evict you from their land and sell the lease to a new tenant. A lot of people object when they hear this, but it's nevertheless true.

An even more disturbing thought is the fact that government taxes us on our labor, which we use and trade to an employer to earn an income. This essentially means that the government claims our bodies/labor as its own and charges us rent/income tax to use them. So not only is our land owned by the government, but our bodies and labor are too.

The U.S. and Chinese governments are far, far more similar than most people realize. Basically just two different flavors of oligarchical collectivism.

 

[monovillage]

Is there a way we can get the Westboro Baptist Church to go to China....

There's about 40 members of the Westboro Baptist Church, why the fuck do you even give a rats ass about so few dumbshits? You're one of the people that empowers them by giving them far more attention then they should have.

 

[Capt Caveman]

The same is true in the United States, of course. Very few people truly own their land here, and those are the rare few people with allodial title. Those without allodial title are really just tenants on the land since they have to pay perpetual property taxes, which is really just another way of saying "rent".

If you have to pay tax on something to "own" it, you really don't own it at all. At that point the person or entity you have to pay the tax to does. All you really "own" is a lease, which you can sell and/or transfer to another party. If you don't pay your rent/property tax, the government can evict you from their land and sell the lease to a new tenant. A lot of people object when they hear this, but it's nevertheless true.

An even more disturbing thought is the fact that government taxes us on our labor, which we use and trade to an employer to earn an income. This essentially means that the government claims our bodies/labor as its own and charges us rent/income tax to use them. So not only is our land owned by the government, but our bodies and labor are too.

The U.S. and Chinese governments are far, far more similar than most people realize. Basically just two different flavors of oligarchical collectivism.

God, I'm sick of people that talk about property taxes as rent. It's not. Can the government, not renew the lease on your property and just 'rent' it to someone else if you've been paying your property taxes? No. So, it's not rent.

So many trolls/retards in this forum.

 

[Juror No. 8]

God, I'm sick of people that talk about property taxes as rent. It's not. Can the government, not renew the lease on your property and just 'rent' it to someone else if you've been paying your property taxes? No. So, it's not rent.

So many trolls/retards in this forum.

LOL. It's still rent. Just because the government doesn't pick and choose tenants doesn't mean property taxes aren't rent. The important point is, if you don't pay, the government can legally evict you and lease your land to someone else, just as an apartment landlord can evict a deadbeat tenant.

Property taxes of any kind equate to rent, no matter how you slice it. If you buy a new computer, and I come along and tell you that you have to pay me a $10/per month tax/rent to use it, and if you don't pay, I can legally confiscate it from you and sell it to someone else, then I am the real owner of your computer. You have to pay me rent to use it, because if you don't, I can simply take it away from you and sell the rental rights to someone else.

Unless you've got a logically sound argument to the contrary, the point stands.

 

[monovillage]

God, I'm sick of people that talk about property taxes as rent. It's not. Can the government, not renew the lease on your property and just 'rent' it to someone else if you've been paying your property taxes? No. So, it's not rent.

So many trolls/retards in this forum.

Yes they can, it's called eminent domain and the recent case Kelo vs. City of New London they said the government can take your land to sell it to commercial or a business that would pay a higher property tax.

http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/rightsandfreedoms/a/eminentd.htm

 

[Juror No. 8]

Yes they can, it's called eminent domain and the recent case Kelo vs. City of New London they said the government can take your land to sell it to commercial or a business that would pay a higher property tax.

http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/rightsandfreedoms/a/eminentd.htm

"But, but, but... that's different! Eminent domain is for the public good! It's a public good when the government eminently domains (steals) your land and sells it to a favored corporation or developer! It's not stealing when the government does it, just like property taxes aren't rent when the government can evict you from your land when don't pay them! Everybody knows this! It's taught in government schools!"

LOL.

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

The same is true in the United States, of course. Very few people truly own their land here, and those are the rare few people with allodial title. Those without allodial title are really just tenants on the land since they have to pay perpetual property taxes, which is really just another way of saying "rent".

If you have to pay tax on something to "own" it, you really don't own it at all. At that point the person or entity you have to pay the tax to does. All you really "own" is a lease, which you can sell and/or transfer to another party. If you don't pay your rent/property tax, the government can evict you from their land and sell the lease to a new tenant. A lot of people object when they hear this, but it's nevertheless true.

An even more disturbing thought is the fact that government taxes us on our labor, which we use and trade to an employer to earn an income. This essentially means that the government claims our bodies/labor as its own and charges us rent/income tax to use them. So not only is our land owned by the government, but our bodies and labor are too.

The U.S. and Chinese governments are far, far more similar than most people realize. Basically just two different flavors of oligarchical collectivism.

No, they are not similar. The difference is always in the way they are applied in real life. You can split straws with dictionary definitions all you like, but the degree of application and the fairness of application is what really matters. In your example a government that charges 1% income tax is far, far more similar than people realize compared to a government that charges 90% income tax. They both charge income tax and through some process that equates to owning the human being. Again, it's the degree, the amount of leverage, and the actual application of that power that matters.

 

[Agent11]

I wouldn't want to be the official that ordered this. China has a history of brutal punishments for government officials that cause the state to lose face.

 

[Juror No. 8]

No, they are not similar. The difference is always in the way they are applied in real life. You can split straws with dictionary definitions all you like, but the degree of application and the fairness of application is what really matters. In your example a government that charges 1% income tax is far, far more similar than people realize compared to a government that charges 90% income tax. They both charge income tax and through some process that equates to owning the human being. Again, it's the degree, the amount of leverage, and the actual application of that power that matters.

If I reach into your pocket and steal 1% of your money instead of 90%, am I any less of a thief?

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

If I reach into your pocket and steal 1% of your money instead of 90%, am I any less of a thief?

YOU would be a thief because you're not providing anything of value back to me.

A person stealing another man's gun with the intent of murdering someone else with that man's weapon is just as much of a thief as a 10-year-old who steals a bar of candy according to you. The dictionary would agree with this. So what you're saying is that you think only as far as what the dictionary says.

Seriously, you're not seeing the forest for the trees.

WE DON'T MURDER OUR CITIZENS FOR THEIR LAND. You really want to use this pseudo-intellectualism to defend such actions and completely ignore what's happening in the real world? A human being just got steamrolled over by his government. His skull was split open and his brains were ejected out onto the ground. And the government censored the news story so that the public wouldn't find out. THAT is the reality of what happened.

The one thing I've learned while being in China is how much I fucking appreciate having America to call my home. We are far from perfect and we have much to improve on, but you have no idea how lucky we are to live in a place with a government that isn't China's.

 

[randomrogue]

This is a tough question to answer. Revolution is a bit unlikely because:

1. The public are not allowed to own guns or weaponry of any kind. Even kitchen knives need to be registered. The government has all the weapons.

2. The government controls the internet and has power to block whatever they want (ultimate censorship power - and they often use it). Open access to knowledge is harder to come by.

3. The populous has a big problem with creativity - the education system is just about rote memorization. Expats who ask their Chinese colleagues to come up with creative solutions to things often get met with blank stares. Of course this is a generalization but I often hear expats complain of this. And the education system really is that way. People go to school to study how to take national exams.

4. There is more dissent in the cities where people are more educated. In the countryside, which accounts for basically all of the landmass (not sure about population), not so much.

5. Public transportation is the primary way of getting around, by far. Every time you get a train ticket you must provide your China ID. The government can track you easily this way, and they monitor all communications like text and web traffic. My dad is on China's list of people to watch out for due to his association with Falun Gong and one night government officials just showed up in his hotel room, completely out of the blue.

6. The people in power have a LOT of power and a LOT of money, and there's no system of checks and balances (in the judicial system there is no jury, only one judge who decides on everything).

Considering all this, the populace is at a huge disadvantage for a successful revolution.

After talking with some people it seems that if revolution were to happen, it would have to be from the members of the rank and file military. They are armed and they are comprised of normal citizens. But the military leadership is also corrupt.

I don't know where the hell this is going to go. It's a really sad state of affairs. I honestly feel incredibly bad for the Chinese populace.

I've spent time in China and my experience did not match yours. You definitely don't need ID to use public transportation. ID to get a kitchen knife? Really? I have been to probably 15 Chinese cities plus Hong Kong and never experienced that.

What is true though is that the vast majority of Chinese are incredibly uneducated. I hesitate to call them stupid but unfortionately one thing leads to another. Their education system is truly a wonder of the world since all it does is teach memorization. The Chinese population has virtually zero critical thinking skills. They're almost useless. They can put a round peg through a round hole but if you give them a square they will be completely lost.

Censorship is efficient and extreme. That great firewall of China was a pain in the ass. They have the ability to selectively censor parts of websites. When I was there they blocked out parts of CNN's homepage but left the rest there.

My father was in China for business in the 1980's and spoke of crazy shit like government agents following him and questioning every single person he spoke to. He bought a postcard from a peddler in Tienanmen Square and they dragged the man away afterwards. When I was there though I had no such problems and even took pictures of the soldiers marching there trying to intimidate people.

A revolution in China would be incredibly difficult. Their only hope is economic collapse or a lack of fresh water. Something that would force revolution upon them.

 

[randomrogue]

A visiting scholar from China came into the office today trying to get tech support for her "Lenovo" laptop. Not only was the laptop a fake..but so was the "Windows" operating system. There were telltale signs that this thing wasnt legit. I don't know if it was the weird logo on the windows login screen or the ridiculous looking start menu that set me off. Or maybe it was the fact that all the font was some shady set that I'd only seen on the boxes of generic/knockoff stuff I've purchased from Chinese sellers on ebay.


Everything was fake, but all the stickers and stuff were official. It didn't even have a model number!

I just laughing in my mind and said "what would we do without china?"

First thing you notice over there is that most things are fake. Clothes. Electronics. Everything is a copy. Even soft drinks are fake. In China they have Coke, Fanta, and Sprite everywhere. Apparently it's a copy and they don't pay Coca Cola a penny.

 

[Capt Caveman]

Yes they can, it's called eminent domain and the recent case Kelo vs. City of New London they said the government can take your land to sell it to commercial or a business that would pay a higher property tax.

http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/rightsandfreedoms/a/eminentd.htm

Jesus, I said you trolls/retards need to stop with this crap. Know what eminent domain is? If you decide to take your land by eminent domain, you get paid for it b/c you OWN it. And does not apply to people that rent land(house/apt), only the land OWNER.

 

[Juror No. 8]

YOU would be a thief because you're not providing anything of value back to me.

So if I steal from you and then return some of what I stole from you in value, then I'm no longer a thief?

What if I reach into your pocket and steal a hundred dollar bill and then buy a foot-long Subway sandwich with the money and give it to you while keeping the change? In that scenario I'd be stealing from you and then providing some value back to you. That means I'm not longer a thief, right? The remaining $95 that I keep is not stolen money, right?

A person stealing another man's gun with the intent of murdering someone else with that man's weapon is just as much of a thief as a 10-year-old who steals a bar of candy according to you. The dictionary would agree with this. So what you're saying is that you think only as far as what the dictionary says.

A thief is a thief. Is that not the case?

Seriously, you're not seeing the forest for the trees.

What "forest" is it where someone who steals something isn't a thief? Is it the same forest where Robin Hood resides?

WE DON'T MURDER OUR CITIZENS FOR THEIR LAND.

No, we murder our citizens for much less - smoking a plant.

https://www.youtube.com/verify_age?next_url=/watch%3Fv%3DWV6Bq8xeQrU

You really want to use this pseudo-intellectualism to defend such actions and completely ignore what's happening in the real world? A human being just got steamrolled over by his government. His skull was split open and his brains were ejected out onto the ground. And the government censored the news story so that the public wouldn't find out. THAT is the reality of what happened.

That's nothing compared to the carnage that took place at Waco. But our government didn't just use a steamroller, it used flame-throwing tanks:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KpQxS1KA5k

The one thing I've learned while being in China is how much I fucking appreciate having America to call my home. We are far from perfect and we have much to improve on, but you have no idea how lucky we are to live in a place with a government that isn't China's.

LOL. I've been to and traveled in China, so there's nothing you can tell me about it that I don't already know. That's beside the point, though. None of this changes the fact that the American people don't "own" their land. They are tenants on the land, just as in China. Nothing you've said here does anything to change that.

 

[Capt Caveman]

LOL. It's still rent. Just because the government doesn't pick and choose tenants doesn't mean property taxes aren't rent. The important point is, if you don't pay, the government can legally evict you and lease your land to someone else, just as an apartment landlord can evict a deadbeat tenant.

Property taxes of any kind equate to rent, no matter how you slice it. If you buy a new computer, and I come along and tell you that you have to pay me a $10/per month tax/rent to use it, and if you don't pay, I can legally confiscate it from you and sell it to someone else, then I am the real owner of your computer. You have to pay me rent to use it, because if you don't, I can simply take it away from you and sell the rental rights to someone else.

Unless you've got a logically sound argument to the contrary, the point stands.

/facepalm

How old are you? Do you own property? Don't need to answer, I'm going to stop feeding the troll/retard.

 

[Juror No. 8]

Jesus, I said you trolls/retards need to stop with this crap. Know what eminent domain is? If you decide to take your land by eminent domain, you get paid for it b/c you OWN it. And does not apply to people that rent land(house/apt), only the land OWNER.

So, if I use overwhelming force to take your property from you against your consent, and then give you what I deem is "fair market value", does that mean I haven't necessarily stolen your property from you? As long as I give you something in return?

LOL.

 

[Juror No. 8]

/facepalm

How old are you?

Logical fallacy #1.

Do you own property?

Logical fallacy #2.

Don't need to answer, I'm going to stop feeding the troll/retard.

Logical fallacy #3. You can't logically support your argument, I win.

 

[Capt Caveman]

Logical fallacy #1.

Logical fallacy #2.

Logical fallacy #3. You can't logically support your argument, I win.

Yeah, that's it. Stop derailing the thread, troll. Rent? :biggrin:

 

[Juror No. 8]

Rent? :biggrin:

Government says:

"Pay your property taxes or we'll evict you from your land!"

Landlord says:

"Pay your rent or I'll evict you from your apartment!"

In both cases, failure to pay = eviction

Any questions?

 

[Capt Caveman]

So, if I use overwhelming force to take your property from you against your consent, and then give you what I deem is "fair market value", does that mean I haven't necessarily stolen your property from you? As long as I give you something in return?

LOL.

That makes zero sense. Of course, ignore how the laws that protect property owners from eminent domain, the ability of the property owner to stop it, etc. Like it's never happened before. Again, stop derailing the thread.

 

[Juror No. 8]

That makes zero sense.

How so?

Of course, ignore how the laws that protect property owners from eminent domain, the ability of the property owner to stop it, etc.

LOL, you mean the same laws the government both creates and ignores?

Tell me, if property owners have the "ability to stop [eminent domain]", then how come the government still gets away with it on a regular basis? Do you have any idea how much land has been taken under eminent domain?

Why should anyone AT ALL have their land stolen by the government?

Again, stop derailing the thread.

How does this discussion constitute a thread derailment? People are commenting about the policies of the Chinese government in relevant terms to the policies of other governments. My comments are along those same lines.

Do you always cry "thread derailment!" every time you get flogged in debate?

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

Juror No 8, I wish you the best of luck in finding a country that has all the rights and infrastructure of the US and where you can choose not to pay a dime to have full access to it. Because anything compulsory is stealing by the other party. And a system that holds true to the letter of whatever book defines its policies because room for interpretation is wrong.

 

[randomrogue]

Juror No 8 reminds me of this guy:

http://www.damninteresting.com/the-wrath-of-the-killdozer/

 

[Capt Caveman]

Juror No 8, I wish you the best of luck in finding a country that has all the rights and infrastructure of the US and where you can choose not to pay a dime to have full access to it. Because anything compulsory is stealing by the other party. And a system that holds true to the letter of whatever book defines its policies because room for interpretation is wrong.

Just ignore the troll. It's just a waste of energy.