Originally posted by: Perknose
You, of all people, should know who the true object of your hate is.
Yes, but what I also know is that most people aren't aware of that. The fact is that crime has caused a right winged reaction in the direction of punitiveness and a reaction to left winged permissiveness that is easily and logically rationalized. My opinion is that society needs a balance between these extremes. You can't make people be enlightened nor can you prevent them from going nuts so a society needs to find the most reasonable mean.
I think that means strong prohibitions against crime and an understanding that criminals are mentally ill and deserved to be rehabilitated if possible. You can't get the sympathy if there is heavy crime and you can't curb the crime if you are permissive of the criminal act.
Job one, then is to prevent the crime by stopping the criminal. Once he is separated from the possibility of more crime then you can see if he can be treated.
The fact that I might, I hope, some how rise above some theft of what I have does not mean the next person will and the feelings of vengeance such people harbor multiplied by many many crimes is also dangerous to society. Preventing that danger is a price criminals will have to bear, in my opinion, because they are the initiators of the original wrong.
It amazes me the number of people that seem to think that gun owners are just waiting for a chance to legally shoot someone. It's like they can just see them clipping the news article of their act out of the local paper, framing it, and hanging it in their trophy room. Pleasssse!
Your talking about taking a human life and then having to live with that fact for the rest of your life. That's not something I would want to have to deal with on a daily basis for the rest of my life.
I would have did what this guy did, called the cops and then tried to stop them. If they refused to stop I would have fired a couple of shots in the air but I sure wouldn't have shot them dead unless they made a threatening move of some kind.
You know, I was once in the situation of giving a friend a ride home at 3 in the morning because someone had stolen his jacket with all his keys in it. The friend was staying in a nice house, in a good neighborhood, belonging to friends who were gone for the week. At 3 in the morning we ended up trying to somehow get in to the well locked up house. After thorough checking of first and second floor doors and windows, we finally knocked the pins out of their french doors to get into the house.
If there had been a trigger happy neighbor like this, how close would we have come to getting shot? Too close for my comfort. Vigiliantiasm often suffers from being delivered by untalented amateurs.
If there had been a trigger happy neighbor like this, how close would we have come to getting shot? Too close for my comfort. Vigiliantiasm often suffers from being delivered by untalented amateurs.
novasatori
Diamond Member
- Feb 27, 2003
- 3,851
- 1
- 0
I should hope your friend's neighbor would recognize him, otherwise I doubt he would come to his defense.
At which point he'd say FREEZE, and your friend would say, Hey Joe its me, my keys were stolen.
Then you'd all laugh and have some beers.
Whoozyerdaddy
Lifer
- Jun 27, 2005
- 19,216
- 1
- 61
Not sure how I'd feel about a third party killing a guy over my stolen TV...
But I'm sure it would involve a cold beer and his choice of hookers...
But I'm sure it would involve a cold beer and his choice of hookers...
Pliablemoose
Lifer
- Oct 11, 1999
- 25,195
- 0
- 56
Well, personally I have my serious doubts about a god, or gods or whatever fvcking magical being/creature anyone wants to worship.
I'm in favor of abortions, I've paid for a couple even...
In a similar vein, do you look around when you make a withdrawl from a walk up ATM?
When i grew up, being worried about something like that was unheard of, I don't like the way society has coddled petty criminals, and in my opinion encouraged it.
Is a POS TV or a handful of stolen electronics worth a human life?
Resoundlingly no, it's not.
But what about the intent of the criminals? By breaking into someone's home, they acknowledge the risk that they'll confront someone, and that they have a back up plan, be it run like hell or cause harm to that person. IMHO, that's worth taking their life.
I googled a bit on the story, and the burglars had petty arrests on their records, frankly I've done worse, but I've never broken into someone's house or knowingly put someone's live at risk without some careful thought.
You on the other hand seem to be intolerant of other's views, right down to your username.
Oh give me a break with the fake outrage. I didn't say a damn thing about "gun owners", I was talking about this individual guy. It's like talking with a bunch of communists here, you're all talking about how the theory works, and I'm saying that's great, but it doesn't always work quite so well in real life. I think most gun owners are like most of the non-gun owning population, pretty decent people who try to do the right thing. But how the system works isn't as interesting as how it doesn't work, and in this case, it's not so much what you or I would do as what the nutbar living next door might do. I think everyone, including the nutbars, should have a right to defend themselves, but I DON'T think having them play Dirty Harry around the neighborhood is a good idea.
Thank you for making my point. Of course it's a dumb question, because despite what people appear to be arguing, I don't think most people believe in taking things to that extreme. So the "right answer" must lay somewhere in the middle, which is as obvious as it is ignored. Maybe you've been reading a different thread, but I seem to be getting a lot of resistance to the idea that gun owners should not have unlimited power to play judge, jury and executioner.
Well I guess that's where you and I differ, I don't happen to think it's a good idea to have a system where any violation of the law gives everyone the right to shoot you if they feel like it. Mostly because there's something uncivilized about it, and being "strong on crime" is not a justification for that kind of thing. A lot of folks seem to revel in wild west justice, while I tend to think it's a sign of progress that we've moved away from it.
But also because in giving life or death power to everyone who feels like exercising it, you're not only taking away the rights of criminals, you're taking away the rights of everyone. Sure, in a perfect world having a lethal weapon would give you magical powers to instantly judge the guilt or innocence of a person, but opening the floor up to shooting any criminals at all leaves things way too open for mistakes, IMHO. Like I said, in a life or death situation, it's usually more clear cut, but extending that power beyond self defense is just asking for a lot of trouble for little gain.
Again, if it was ONLY about property, I might agree...but it's not. The fact is that I have an absolute right to confront, and attempt to stop, any crime in progress. I don't go looking for them, but when it happens around me I act accordingly. The problem is that when I try to stop criminals in the act they tend to want to fight about it, thus leading us to justification for the use of force. I'm not going in with the intent of using force, but I am willing to use force if necessary to stop the crime. If others do not want force used against them, then they should not commit a crime. It's really not rocket science.
The news showed the two widows holding pictures of the two dead thieves holding their babies.
They should've thought about never seeing their babies again before becoming thieves for a living. Now they are dead as they should be.
They should've thought about never seeing their babies again before becoming thieves for a living. Now they are dead as they should be.
I think that there are a couple of things that are missing from this thread as Rainsford has tried to fill in the blanks but to little avail.
1. No one believes that those that were shot should go unpunished
2. He and I are arguing that the punishment should fit the crime (See 8th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States)
3. This could become a convenient excuse for murder - someone following another person somewhere then shooting them claiming that they were in the process of doing something criminal
On a side note, I do notice some of the posters in favor are pretty adamantly against the Iraq war. Why do you believe that you cannot spread democracy at the barrel of a gun there but think that that same philosophy would spread peace and be the basis for a euphoric place to live in your own country?
As my handle attempts to indicate but is never really gotten because people can't think without it being politically charged anymore, right and wrong change with the times. Our views of right and wrong are ever changing and we shouldn't be in the business of "chlorinating the gene pool" when that same choride could be used against us in the future.
1. No one believes that those that were shot should go unpunished
2. He and I are arguing that the punishment should fit the crime (See 8th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States)
3. This could become a convenient excuse for murder - someone following another person somewhere then shooting them claiming that they were in the process of doing something criminal
On a side note, I do notice some of the posters in favor are pretty adamantly against the Iraq war. Why do you believe that you cannot spread democracy at the barrel of a gun there but think that that same philosophy would spread peace and be the basis for a euphoric place to live in your own country?
As my handle attempts to indicate but is never really gotten because people can't think without it being politically charged anymore, right and wrong change with the times. Our views of right and wrong are ever changing and we shouldn't be in the business of "chlorinating the gene pool" when that same choride could be used against us in the future.
But you have admitted that we don't have all the facts yet you continue to argue based upon assumptions of what this guy did... in your mind. I also didn't say "you" said anything about gun owners. I just pointed out how willing many people are to jump to some absurd conclusion about what exactly this person did or did not do and what his motivations were.
What?? If these theives hadn't broken into the house or would have stopped when told to this wouldn't have happened. I have a hard time telling myself that the theives were the victims. The way I see it they were the ones out to victimize someone.
Then don't burgarize houses. Problem solved.
The way I see it is that once you attempt to detain someone caught in a criminal act with a firearm you are now in a life threatening situation because even if the criminals don't have a firearm they could take yours away from you and use it on you. I think it's telling you worry about the "nutbars" while giving the thieves the benifit of the doubt. I know who I think was the one who respected the law in this case.
Basically, it's about self defense. The question is, what is the self. For most people the self is the ego and the ego is an illusion. The ego is a construct of self identification and attachment to thoughts, a memory of oneself in the past projected into the future.
But the past is dead and gone and the future will never come. There is only the eternal flow of the now.
He who is awake in the now is at one with all that is and can't have anything taken from him.
When you steal from an ego you steal his illusions and try to add them to your own. You say to him, no, you must not dream your dream, you must give your dream to me.
But if you take an egos dreams from him you cause him to awaken and what he awakens to is that he has nothing because he is was kicked out of the now by self hate.
There is nothing an ego fears more than the loss of illusions, the loss of the ego itself. If the ego had not bent and conformed to the madness around it, the real self would have been killed. The ego is a prison but it was all that saved us from real death.
To steal from an ego is to threaten it with death, so have a care if your ego is so poor that you need to steal others dreams.
There is only love and only in love can we die to the prison we're in.
Fight for a just world so the timid soul can emerge. I will defend your right to dream if you will defend mine.
But the past is dead and gone and the future will never come. There is only the eternal flow of the now.
He who is awake in the now is at one with all that is and can't have anything taken from him.
When you steal from an ego you steal his illusions and try to add them to your own. You say to him, no, you must not dream your dream, you must give your dream to me.
But if you take an egos dreams from him you cause him to awaken and what he awakens to is that he has nothing because he is was kicked out of the now by self hate.
There is nothing an ego fears more than the loss of illusions, the loss of the ego itself. If the ego had not bent and conformed to the madness around it, the real self would have been killed. The ego is a prison but it was all that saved us from real death.
To steal from an ego is to threaten it with death, so have a care if your ego is so poor that you need to steal others dreams.
There is only love and only in love can we die to the prison we're in.
Fight for a just world so the timid soul can emerge. I will defend your right to dream if you will defend mine.
Thee hick who shot the burglars probably thought that the burglars' lives were worth less because they were minorities.
bamacre
Lifer
- Jul 1, 2004
- 21,029
- 2
- 81
I don't think the 911 operator did a very good job of talking this guy out of shooting them. I don't blame him in any way, hindsight is 20/20, but I think this is something to learn from. He should have told the guy, hell promised him, that the burglars would have been caught. Lie to him, tell him anything that would better the chances of persuading him that going outside with a gun and with the intent of shooting them is a bad idea.
Perhaps if the 911 operator had said something to the sort of, "look, this is actually the second house these guys have robbed, we had another call with the same description, officers are on the way, they know who those guys are. I promise you we'll get these guys, I promise you they will not get away. Thank you, you've done a great job calling in, and giving us a description, you've been very helpful, and going outside your house with a gun is the last thing we need right now, it would really help us a lot if you stay on the line and communicate with me. That's what we need your help with."
It is maybe a bunch of lies and a bit of psychology, but something like this would prevent future episodes like this one.
Perhaps if the 911 operator had said something to the sort of, "look, this is actually the second house these guys have robbed, we had another call with the same description, officers are on the way, they know who those guys are. I promise you we'll get these guys, I promise you they will not get away. Thank you, you've done a great job calling in, and giving us a description, you've been very helpful, and going outside your house with a gun is the last thing we need right now, it would really help us a lot if you stay on the line and communicate with me. That's what we need your help with."
It is maybe a bunch of lies and a bit of psychology, but something like this would prevent future episodes like this one.
Sure, go ahead and execute anyone using P2P, the RIAA and MPAA would love it.
All forms of population control will cut down on those looking for entitlements so the majority of the country is all for it.
Every citizen capable of shooting a gun should be armed and ready like this guy was.
How many thieves like these two fresh dead ones do you think there would be?
How many thieves like these two fresh dead ones do you think there would be?
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