Mac user needs help picking a motherboard

[mosco]

http://www.googlegear.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=241043

right now i am looking at the MSI K7N2G-ILSR. I plan on using a athlon xp 2200+. This is going to be my first attempt to build a computer but i wouldn't say that i am a computer newbie or anything like that, i just don't know much about pc motherboards.

features I want:

AGP 8X - Not extremely important, but it seems that most new ones come with it. I read it not much faster than 4X, is that true?
USB 2.0
Firewire
ethernet - i would like gigabit ethernet built in so i can network with my mac as fast as possible but it doesn't seem likely
4 or 5 PCI slots - i like adding extras to the computer
6 channel audio
integrated graphics - i know these are not that good but i wont be using this for games and i would rather not buy a graphics card right away
serial ata - not hugely important but good to have something that will last.

I assume that the one above has integrated graphics by the pics on newegg but i don't know if the googlegear one is a different model with the same name or what.

this will mainly be used to encode divx and burn dvds and display them on my tv. 140 is my max price

other thing i am looking at:

Antec truepower 430
Vantec Aeroflow heatsink
Chieftec silver case
AMD 2200+

Opinions?

 

[Buz2b]

Opinions being like A******s, I would offer that the Asus nForce2 (A7N8X Deluxe) offering is a better selection (basically the same board though; good choice) and is still in your price range. I believe it has better reviews also, but don't quote me on that. You can view one offering here.

Good luck in your endeavor.

 

[floccus]

If you want integrated graphics on an nForce2 board, you need one that uses the IGP northbride instead of the SPP. You won't get nice outstanding video, but no suprise there. The A7N8X delux is a great board, I use them a lot, but they don't use the IGP northbridge. I would recommend getting that though, and a cheap (Radeon 9100 if you can find one) vid. card. It will improve system performance greatly since the IGP uses the ram for both the cpu and the video so you have a pretty big performance hit.

 

[Buz2b]

Here's a review of the ASUS board. Just team it up with a "basic" video card (I only say that since you say this is not an issue with you) and you've got one heck of a board with upgrade possibilities abounding.

 

[mosco]

Whats a ACR (Advanced Communication Riser) slot and how is it different than a PCI slot?

Is there any reason not to get the MSI? I mean i like the Asus but i am still not sure about the video. i was planning to get something like a radeon 9500 but I am not really ready to drop 175 done for one and i was kinda hoping to wait on getting a video card until i really needed one. If i got the asus, i guess i could find a cheap card to work but i just hate spending that extra money.

 

[azkiwi]

since you aren't gaming there are lots of 'bargain' video cards out there. Matrox are pretty inexpensive and give great 3D, or pick up one off the trading forum. Gong for integrated graphics limtis your board possibilities and stunts your upgrade path.

 

[Buz2b]

The ACR is (if I remember correctly) just a small form factor slot for items such as modems and NIC's that rely heavily upon the motherboard itself to do some of it's work. It also saves the MB builder some bucks and is supposed to provide more flexibility for the user; yeah right. Anyway, it is mainly for specific devices (as were mentioned). If you want to, you can read a bit on this here. But don't get too caught up in it; not a lot of people actually use them as far as I have seen unless your board comes with something to go in that slot.
As for the video card, the beauty is that you don't have to get an expensive one right now. You said you were going to go with the onboard video to start with right? Well, even the nForce boards that have video are only equal to roughly the geForce 2 MX 200 or so quality level. You can pick one of those up for chump change and save your pennies for a new card later. Nothing lost in the meantime. The difference will be that you would have a better board (than the MSI) in the exchange.

 

[mosco]

would a Geforce 4TI 4200 last long?

Also, if i put a XP 2200+ in the Asus mobo with PC 2100 ram, will it run at 1.8 GHz or will i need to run PC 2700?

 

[Buz2b]

would a Geforce 4TI 4200 last long?

Judging from your earlier statements/inquiries, I would say that you would be thrilled with that and might even avoid an additional purchase (later down the line) for some time. While certainly not the "top of the heap", it is certainly a big jump over the geForce 2 MX series. It sounds like an excellent idea if you can get one for the right price and couple it with the ASUS board. Or perhaps you were thinking of still getting the MSI board and using this card? If you can manage the ASUS, go for it. I fully understand the limitations of budgeting though.

 

[mosco]

yeah, i am a poor high school student and i spent all the money i made last summer on a new mac and then my christmas money on home theater speakers so at the moment i am short on cash.

So getting the asus and the geforce 4Ti 4200 would take up most of my money as of now and i would still need to buy the case, powersupply, and ram. i already have an extra hd and i have a dvd burner for it. I didn't want to have to wait to put this machine together and use it.

So as of now, it looks like i am going to get the MSI unless someone can make a good arguement agaisnt it. if i do get it, i can save up more for a graphics card, would a Radeon 9500 be worth buying? it seems to be a good value for the money.

 

[mosco]

the only bad thing i can seem to find about the MSI is that it is very picky about ram. is this commom with many motherboards?

 

[RedRonin]

Whatever you do - DON'T buy anything with an ISA slot... or a built-in VIA C3... Heh. Whew, really bad jokes. The MSI board you are looking at is great, so is the ASUS board that was recommended by others here. There is also a pretty fully loaded Chaintech 7NJS board you might like.

~*SIGH*~

HUN-YA!

 

[Buz2b]

Originally posted by: mosco
the only bad thing i can seem to find about the MSI is that it is very picky about ram. is this commom with many motherboards?

It seems lately it has been for some but not all. As long as you stick to good quality RAM you shouldn't have much trouble. Even if you do, those companies will back up the product they sold you.
As for the MSI board, I have built a few systems with their boards and they are not too bad. However, I don't think you wouild get the same quality and "extras" as you would with the ASUS. Mind you, I will admit I like ASUS products for the most part and so a bit of "predjudice" might be seeping through. What you might want to look at is "How much am I going to save with the MSI board and what could/would it cost me later on down the line?" Yes, the MSI has the onboard video but you could match that video level with a $25 video card. The Asus is (at least on NewEgg) $5 cheaper than the MSI board. Net difference would be $20 if you got a basic AGP card and the ASUS board. You'd have a better board with better product support. Mind you, I am not talking about regular customer support but rather product support. Asus, like many board manufacturers seems to have lost sight of their support after purchase. You won't find a lot of difference in board builders as far as that goes. Rather, what you will find is better product support with someone like ASUS. That translates to more BIOS releases, more compatibility, better MB drivers, etc, etc. That and a better overall quality board is worth a few bucks and then some.
Can I point to something specific about this offering from MSI? No, not enough experience with this line of boards to make that judgement; maybe someone else can "enlighten" us on that.
However, if you go to the MSI Forums, you will see some interesting stuff. One, the onboard graphics is crap if you want to play any of the current games. Two, the geForce4 TI4200 you mentioned earlier has a lot of support as a much better alternative (and "bang for the buck") to the onboard graphics.
It might be a good idea to visit there and ask around a bit with the actual users of that board. Keep in mind that most people go to forums when they have a problem. Like a Doctor's office. How many "well people" pop in for a visit? That doesn't mean that the whole population is sick, just because you see a few there that are.
Bottom line is that in a choice between the two, I'd go ASUS. But I'm not the one making this decision; you are. Just keep in mind the long term aspects of your decision and how much they might be worth. And do look around on the MSI forum. Heck, for that matter check out an ASUS Forum. Equal time is recommended, of course!

 

[mosco]

Well i decided its probably better not to get the integrated graphics so i like the asus. Now that the integrated graphics is not important, is it worth looking at other chip sets? nforce ones seem very buggy about ram and stuff. How will i know what ram i am buying exactly? And when i do, it can only go in certain slots?

 

[Buz2b]

Buggy chipset and picky about RAM are terms that are thrown around very loosley in forums like this without any merit to their accusations. You must remember the "Doctors Office" comparison I mentioned earlier. A company might sell several hundred thousand MB's and maybe less than half of one percent have a problem of one form or another; some more serious and some easily remedied. If 5 or 6 of those people start posting problems on a Forum, they can seem to make a lot of noise that makes the "trouble" seem much more of a trend. The truth is that usually it is a "non-issue". Mind you, I've had a faulty MB before (bought new) and was pissed when it happened to me also but there are ways to handle these situations. MSI was the one I got that was bad. It took several emails, calls, etc but I did get a new board finally. But that doesn't mean that all of those boards were faulty. I was just a lucky guy! Ha!
Anyway, back to the issue at hand. You are going to have to look to either the nForce2 chipset or probably the VIA chipset (KT400) for the features you are asking about. The VIA doesn't offer onboard video as far as I know. Now that this isn't an issue you could certainly look at them. One suggestion is the ASUS A7V8X LAN, Firewire IEEE1394, Serial ATA w/ RAID DDR400. (Gee, did I suggest ASUS again?!?) Actually, if you look for that chipset at NewEgg or other retailer, you should find other brands also. The good thing is that the ASUS A7V8X is only around $100. (I think I see some room opening up for that video card here. Ha!)
As I mentioned earlier though. Visit that ASUS forum and look around for info on the nForce2 board and the KT400 version. You should like what you see.

 

[mosco]

http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproduct.asp?description=13-128-164

how does that look. i actually do like the 127 dollar asus becausse it gigabit ethernet but aside from that the gigebite seems more feature packed and gets good reviews.

 

[Buz2b]

from that the gigebite seems more feature packed and gets good reviews.

That's their legacy, but it doesn't translate into real world longevity. I'll probably get flamed here from some Gigabyte owners but they just do not seem to have the quality/longevity of other boards. I'd rather you went back to the MSI before this. But remember, this is one man's opinion. Also, the GB only has two dimm slots vs three for the ASUS of the same model. What features do you think it has over the other anyway; RAID? Were you planning on using that? That would be a consideration. How does this one fit into what you are looking for? (Third one down in that list, sorry).

Edit:
My bad, the GB does have 3 dimm slots. Should have known better; same chipset and all.

 

[azkiwi]

Buz2b is really helping you out here when he mentions support. You won't get tech support worth a damn from any of the manufacturers - at least not in a timely fashion - but you have a good chance of getting it in the forums (as you are now).

This might be an over-simplification, but by looking at the number of posts on nay one brand you can get an idea of the "installed base". If there are a 1000 posts on Asus and 100 on say, Chaintech, you have 10x the support group. Given that lots of folks here torture their hardware until it screams, the chances are they have met with most of the problems you are likely to encounter.

Right now the NForce chipset is more mature than the KT400, and has a longer upgrade path.

 

[mosco]

i just realized i have not thanked you yet, so, thank you for the help so far, there are so many choices.

asus(deluxe version) vs gigabyte

gigabyte: raid, more usb ports, more fireiwre ports, dual bios, optical and coxial out, price
asus: asus name, fanless

and i know the asus boards are fast but speed isn't the most important thing to me (heck, i use a mac). I also won't be overclocking. the nforce boards seem extremely more buggy from everything i read and that kinda bothers me. whats up with only sticking ram in certian slots? slots 1,2 or 1,3 and such. I hate choices.

 

[floccus]

and i know the asus boards are fast but speed isn't the most important thing to me (heck, i use a mac)

Uh oh, now you've gone and made me need to post. I just want to remind you that jsut because something runs at a lowed core frequency doesn't mean its slower. A Mac is completely different from an x86 system. Mac actually kicks major booty in certain folds, and if I could afford one of their nice high-end video rigs I would.

the nforce boards seem extremely more buggy from everything i read and that kinda bothers me. whats up with only sticking ram in certian slots? slots 1,2 or 1,3 and such. I hate choices. [/Q}

The nForce2 isn't more buggy than any other chipset really... as Buz said before, you're going to see people complain more than praise a board. There's also the fact that there are more people using an nForce2 based board than say a KT400(a), so in all logical reason of course you'll hear more complaints from those people. We're also more critical of top technologies and love tearing them down as much as possible... its a thing with us.. don't really understand it, but thats what we seem to always do. Guess we're hoping that our scrutiny leads to the perfect system.

As for having to choose the slots you install the ram, thats only if you want to run dual channel DDR. What you have on the A7N8X delux for instance, is a blue slot and two black slots. You can put both sticks in the black slots, but they are on the same channel so you wont be running dual channel. In order to run dual channel you need a stick in the blue and on or both of the black slots. So, its not really that complex. I hope I explained that clear enough.

 

[mosco]

I know all about the velocity engine the Mhz myth and all that but but it gets to a point where the velocity engine can't compete with a 3Ghz p4 computer. if you look at the specs, pcs smokre macs. So that reference was saying that speed is not th most important thing for me, its the features and software integration that i like. In this case the motherboard.

I mean the Asus board looks really nice, its just that giga-byte looks really nice too and something draws me to it. and it looks so much cooler.

Originally posted by: floccus

and i know the asus boards are fast but speed isn't the most important thing to me (heck, i use a mac)

Uh oh, now you've gone and made me need to post. I just want to remind you that jsut because something runs at a lowed core frequency doesn't mean its slower. A Mac is completely different from an x86 system. Mac actually kicks major booty in certain folds, and if I could afford one of their nice high-end video rigs I would.

the nforce boards seem extremely more buggy from everything i read and that kinda bothers me. whats up with only sticking ram in certian slots? slots 1,2 or 1,3 and such. I hate choices. [/Q}

The nForce2 isn't more buggy than any other chipset really... as Buz said before, you're going to see people complain more than praise a board. There's also the fact that there are more people using an nForce2 based board than say a KT400(a), so in all logical reason of course you'll hear more complaints from those people. We're also more critical of top technologies and love tearing them down as much as possible... its a thing with us.. don't really understand it, but thats what we seem to always do. Guess we're hoping that our scrutiny leads to the perfect system.

As for having to choose the slots you install the ram, thats only if you want to run dual channel DDR. What you have on the A7N8X delux for instance, is a blue slot and two black slots. You can put both sticks in the black slots, but they are on the same channel so you wont be running dual channel. In order to run dual channel you need a stick in the blue and on or both of the black slots. So, its not really that complex. I hope I explained that clear enough.

 

[Buz2b]

Honestly, mosco, if you have heard anything I have posted and understood it, don't do the Gigabyte MB. I'd rather you do the MSI than that. Sacrifice a couple of "convenient" features for a better board. Just don't do it! Yes, I am an ASUS fan but that doesn't mean I haven't recommended other boards in the past. I was also known at one time here as one of the biggest promoters of the ECS K7S5A boards. Most thought those were a POS in the beginning but guess what? They are still around, have been revised and are going strong. In the long run, those boards worked out well. I can "stand" on that but will not use it as a convenient precursor to a recommendation.
That does not mean that all I recommend is the "best" way to go. It just gives you a bit of insight. It seems as though not many here have had a major argument with my recommendations for you; otherwise we might have heard from them. (BTW, although that is not an invitation for them to crap on my recommendations, I would whole-heartedly welcome any additional recomendations they might have).
Bottom line; go for (at least at this point) anything but the GB board. IMHO, that board is the worst of the three evils. Ha!

 

[Gage8]

Hi,
if you are considering a mobo with onboard video you might want to consider Epox as well. They are very well known and respected; very stable.

Check out this link

8th board down Model# EP-8RGA. $120 for an Nforce2 board (Noforce2 is the best chipset out today). The onboard graphics is equal to a Geforce 4 MX 440 I believe. This should last you for a long time. With this you are spending $20 less than the other Nforce2 boards and getting some nice graphics as well.

Something to think about. This is the way I would go if i wanted to build an integrated graphics machine.

 

[mosco]

ok, gigabyte off the list.

the Epox one doesn't have serial ata along with some other features which doesn't seem big now but i don't plan on rebuilding the pc anytime with the next couple of years considering in a little over a year i will transfer from poor high school kid to an even poorer college student.

So i guess i will stick with the Asus or MSI and then buy whichever one fits the budget. Thanks for the help guys.

 

[Buz2b]

The onboard graphics is equal to a Geforce 4 MX 440 I believe

I think you mean geForce 2 MX440, not geForce 4. If it were equal to a geforce 4 there wouldn't be any argument as to whether or not to get a separate video card.

mosco,
You have enough info and seem like you're smart enough to do the right thing. Heck, at least you are going PC from Mac! :beer: Good luck in your endeavors. When you get down to building the system, don't forget you can get a lot of help here if you have any problems. Lots of knowledgable folks here.