Lovely.

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Pocatello

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Pocatello
When times are tough, people getting laid off from private companies, people will look for the government for answer. From my experience, the US is more of a socialist state than communist Vietnam.

Don't do drugs, kids.

A few examples. In Vietnam, if you're retired, you have to depend on your kids or other family members to take care of you. If you're really smart and, you can take great advantage of the US welfare systems. Many immigrants get welfare from the states while having their own businesses at their homes. They use the welfare money to take nice vacations every year. My aunts in Vietnam worked as teachers all their lives, when they retired, they didn't get any pension. My mom has to send money back every year to support them. Only the higher ups of the communist party members get pensions, free health care, etc. There is almost no safety net for the unemployed. The best hospitals are reserved for government officials and their family members and people with money (actually, the people with money are communist members). If you want to open a small business in the US, you have to deal with many laws and regulations. In Vietnam, not so much. Sometimes you need to pay some money to the local bosses to look the other way. In the US, you have to pay taxes to support many government programs, (FICA is a tax on the poor), and you have to deal with the IRS at the end of the year. In Vietnam, businesses have to pay taxes, sometimes you only deal with the local bosses, but many workers don't.

You're confused about what both communism/socialism and capitalism are. The differences are not about taxes, welfare, pensions, safety nets, laws, or regulations, but about private ownership and the rule of law. In capitalism, individuals get to have some 'skin in the game' of life, along with some protection for fair dealing. In communism, they don't.
Modern Vietnam is not really a communist state anyway (not to apologize for communism, which I would never do anyway). Because Marx had no respect for the rule of law, communism inevitably (and quickly) devolves into a primitive semi-anarchic tyranny roughly on par with medieval feudalism.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: JSFLY

You think I insulted you? A little sensitive are we? Not trying to insult you at all, just trying to educate the uneducated.

You have no idea the difference between a mixed economy and a socialist state and the end utopian communist stateless society. Please save us the lectures.

Furthermore, I am not the one "trying to rewrite history by calling them communists". They called communists period. Americans called them communists back in the day, we call them communists now. They refer themselves as communists, the history books call them communists, their political party is called the communist party. It is you who is trying to rewrite history by calling them socialists.

Ok and? National Socialists were a fascist ideology. Like I said they never got past the stage of socialism.

I'll say it again. You have been brainwashed by Fox news and the republican party to equate socialism with the failed communist state of the USSR. That's how the republicans are able to get you so mad at Obama. You think of his policies being socialist and you automatically think Russia, China, Communist, and a red flag. Want proof of this? Google images -> Obama Stalin and you'll see photoshops made by right wingers like you depicting Obama as Joe Stalin.

If I were brainwashed like you claim I am. I would consider Obama and Europe Socialist. But who in this conversation believes that? You or I?

The kind of socialism we are talking about in this thread, the kind of socialism that America and other modern democratic nations such as Canada and Europe are involved in, has nothing to do with cold war era USSR communism. The kind of socialism we're talking about here is nationalized healthcare, welfare reform, increased education spending, increased banking regulations. But people like you don't see that, when the word socialism is mentioned the first thing that pops into your head is a picture of Mao and Stalin. And to be honest that's really sad.

Because that is socialism. Not the mixed economys of Europe or the United States. How many govts in Europe own the means of production ?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Take your own medicine and stop believing the Fox News and Sean Hannity that Europe is littered with socialists states.

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: JSFLY

Originally posted by: waggy
and this is why we people are not pissed off at Obama and we are going to have more like him.

yes IF everything was perfect Socialism works. But we know this is not a perfect world. Socialism has failed time and time again. Pity so many have no idea.

Originally posted by: OCguy
This just in: 85% of Americans couldnt even tell you what the difference is.

I think this applies to some of the people on these boards as well...

Originally posted by: Genx87
Ill tell you my opinion. The fall of the Soviet Union may turn out to be the worst thing to happen to western capitalism.

People simply forget the horrors of socialism and let other rewrite history for them.

Your confusing socialism with communism.

Explain to me how the Soviet Union was a stateless communist society? They never got past the 2nd stage called socialism where the state confiscates private property and wealth.

Dont cast stones in your glass house.

can yu at least be adult enough to admit that the democratic socialism that the rest of us are talking about is different than the authoritarian socialism/military dictatorship strawman you and several others keep trying to erect?

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: cubeless

Originally posted by: sandorski
If it had to be 100% one or the other, Socialism would be best for the Average person. It doesn't though, Mixed is better than either.

sheesh... you are so deluded... i bet you answered that phone poll...

the 'average' person in the us has more everything (good and bad) than any other 'average' person in the histroy of the planet... the 'average' person under any socialist regime the planet has ever had would think that the 'average' american was a party chief...

the socialist countries of northern europe have the highest standards of living in the world, and they work less.

 

[JSFLY]

Originally posted by: miketheidiot

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: JSFLY

Originally posted by: waggy
and this is why we people are not pissed off at Obama and we are going to have more like him.

yes IF everything was perfect Socialism works. But we know this is not a perfect world. Socialism has failed time and time again. Pity so many have no idea.

Originally posted by: OCguy
This just in: 85% of Americans couldnt even tell you what the difference is.

I think this applies to some of the people on these boards as well...

Originally posted by: Genx87
Ill tell you my opinion. The fall of the Soviet Union may turn out to be the worst thing to happen to western capitalism.

People simply forget the horrors of socialism and let other rewrite history for them.

Your confusing socialism with communism.

Explain to me how the Soviet Union was a stateless communist society? They never got past the 2nd stage called socialism where the state confiscates private property and wealth.

Dont cast stones in your glass house.

can yu at least be adult enough to admit that the democratic socialism that the rest of us are talking about is different than the authoritarian socialism/military dictatorship strawman you and several others keep trying to erect?

I don't think he can....

Some people live in a constant state of denial and are incapable of admitting failure.

 

[dahunan]

You can thank our politicians and law enforcement for this.. they see White Collar criminals get "bailouts" for destroying the world economy and stealing near a trillion dollars from US citizens with their schemes

Creating an even larger distance between the rich and the poor

This is not capitalism where criminals and people who should be bankrupt are instead rewarded with handouts on the order of billions.. while those same scumbags bitch about social programs to help the citizens they want to keep poor

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: miketheidiot

can yu at least be adult enough to admit that the democratic socialism that the rest of us are talking about is different than the authoritarian socialism/military dictatorship strawman you and several others keep trying to erect?

Well this whole discussion centers around whether or not people in the United States know what Socialism is and what it means. Socialism in it purest form is the ownership of the means of production by the state is it not? Yet we have some in here trying to claim the mixed economies of Europe are what socialism is. Which falls into my point, people forget. It is also amusing he used OCguys quote when I am simply reciting the classic definition of the ideology. Yet he and you want to argue a newer definition. In other words do people really understand what true in the wild Socialism looks like?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

The question did not ask the question to define the ideologies.

I think you may fail to understand my view of Europe and Obama as well. I dont consider either to be Socialist.

 

[JSFLY]

You have no idea the difference between a mixed economy and a socialist state and the end utopian communist stateless society. Please save us the lectures.

Your the one trying to equate the topic of discussion, democratic socialism, with the now defunct USSR and communism, not I.

Ok and? National Socialists were a fascist ideology. Like I said they never got past the stage of socialism.

Facism was never in the socialist theology. Your trying to blame Socialism for the crimes Stalin committed. That's like blaming the bible for the Spanish inquisition.

If I were brainwashed like you claim I am. I would consider Obama and Europe Socialist. But who in this conversation believes that? You or I?

Third and last time I'm saying this. When you hear the word socialism and a pictures of Mao and Stalin pop into your head, you've been brainwashed.

Because that is socialism. Not the mixed economys of Europe or the United States. How many govts in Europe own the means of production ?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Take your own medicine and stop believing the Fox News and Sean Hannity that Europe is littered with socialists states.

Don't even know why I'm doing this... some people just don't understand logic and reason.

 

[Genx87]

Your the one trying to equate the topic of discussion, democratic socialism, with the now defunct USSR and communism, not I.

I made one observation how people forget what true socialism looks like because the USSR died. Then you come in here trying to argue Europe is socialist. Hello McFly?!?!?!?!?!?

Facism was never in the socialist theology. Your trying to blame Socialism for the crimes Stalin committed. That's like blaming the bible for the Spanish inquisition.

Right over your head.

Third and last time I'm saying this. When you hear the word socialism and a pictures of Mao and Stalin pop into your head, you've been brainwashed.

Brainwashed into what? Do you have any clue what Socialism is? I am going to guess not by your belief the mixed economies are what Socialism is.

I think this argument is rather funny. You present the strawman argument I am brainwashed into believing fox news. When Fox news will tell you mixed economies in Europe and Obama are Socialist. Something I disagree with big time. Who the fuck is brainwashed again?

 

[JSFLY]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Your the one trying to equate the topic of discussion, democratic socialism, with the now defunct USSR and communism, not I.

I made one observation how people forget what true socialism looks like because the USSR died. Then you come in here trying to argue Europe is socialist. Hello McFly?!?!?!?!?!?

Facism was never in the socialist theology. Your trying to blame Socialism for the crimes Stalin committed. That's like blaming the bible for the Spanish inquisition.

Right over your head.

Third and last time I'm saying this. When you hear the word socialism and a pictures of Mao and Stalin pop into your head, you've been brainwashed.

Brainwashed into what? Do you have any clue what Socialism is? I am going to guess not by your belief the mixed economies are what Socialism is.

I think this argument is rather funny. You present the strawman argument I am brainwashed into believing fox news. When Fox news will tell you mixed economies in Europe and Obama are Socialist. Something I disagree with big time. Who the fuck is brainwashed again?

No actually. European socialism is not scary enough. Fox news does what you are doing. They bring up the words Obama, socialism, and communism. They link Obama with socialism and socialism with communism and hope for a red scare. If your not a Fox News viewer, and made the same links as they did soley based on coincidence, my apologies. But I'm sure you can see why I called you a right winger and think you were brain washed by Fox News.

As for our argument, I think your definition of socialism is stuck in the past. The definition of communism hasn't changed much these days, because it died with the collapse of the Soviet Union many years ago. But socialist ideas and socialism itself is still alive today. The definition of socialism is very broad and has evolved beyond your very stagnant definition. China today is a socialist republic, and I'm sure you can see that there is a HUGE difference between the China of today and China during Mao's communist Reign.

 

[Vic]

Whoa there people... capitalism and socialism are ECONOMIC philosophies, not political ideologies. As such fascism is most definitely in the socialist 'theology,' just on the right-wing side. And the countries in Europe being referred to are NOT democratic socialisms, but social democracies. And yes, there is a difference.

 

[Genx87]

No actually. European socialism is not scary enough. Fox news does what you are doing. They bring up the words Obama, socialism, and communism. They link Obama with socialism and socialism with communism and hope for a red scare. If your not a Fox News viewer, and made the same links as they did soley based on coincidence, my apologies. But I'm sure you can see why I called you a right winger and think you were brain washed by Fox News.

I never linked Obama with Socialism at all. In fact I have several times in this thread said he is not a Socialist.

As for our argument, I think your definition of socialism is stuck in the past. The definition of communism hasn't changed much these days, because it died with the collapse of the Soviet Union many years ago. But socialist ideas and socialism itself is still alive today. The definition of socialism is very broad and has evolved beyond your very stagnant definition. China today is a socialist republic, and I'm sure you can see that there is a HUGE difference between the China of today and the China during Mao's communist Reign.

Now we are getting somewhere. Clearly in a mixed economy there are going to be govt owned means of production. For instance in the United States infrastructure is typically owned by the state. In some cities healthcare facilities are owned by the state. I think you get my drift. But I dont view those govts as socialist. Our economy is mixed. We have some socialism, fascism, and capitalism.

My original response was based upon people in the poll responding based on the classic defnition of the word. Though I concede looking at the article they never ask the respondants to define what socialism and capitalism means.

 

[JSFLY]

I never linked Obama with Socialism at all. In fact I have several times in this thread said he is not a Socialist.

Yes my bad, you only did the 2nd part. I'm so used to right wingers using this tactic I pounced immediately without thinking.

Now we are getting somewhere. Clearly in a mixed economy there are going to be govt owned means of production. For instance in the United States infrastructure is typically owned by the state. In some cities healthcare facilities are owned by the state. I think you get my drift. But I dont view those govts as socialist. Our economy is mixed. We have some socialism, fascism, and capitalism.

My original response was based upon people in the poll responding based on the classic defnition of the word. Though I concede looking at the article they never ask the respondants to define what socialism and capitalism means.

Glad that's resolved. Sorry for insulting you.

addendum:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...cialists_n_185364.html

Just wanted to give an example of the crap republicans pull regarding the word socialist. Obviously the implication here is equating socialism to anti-Americanism.

 

[Nemesis 1]

THey have the power. but they always lacked that little something extra. The game changer here is drones. With Drones fighting authority is dead end.

 

[Acanthus]

Originally posted by: Sureshot324
Ideally you have a balance of capitalism and socialism, like we have now.

Most people who understand economics (by understand i mean "you have taken over a 100 level economics course at a university) agree with this contention.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: JSFLY
The kind of socialism we are talking about in this thread, the kind of socialism that America and other modern democratic nations such as Canada and Europe are involved in, has nothing to do with cold war era USSR communism. The kind of socialism we're talking about here is nationalized healthcare, welfare reform, increased education spending, increased banking regulations. But people like you don't see that, when the word socialism is mentioned the first thing that pops into your head is a picture of Mao and Stalin. And to be honest that's really sad.

Why do the majority of your ideas come down to increased spending and a much larger government?

Call it whatever you wish, those are the aspects of socialism that I object to -- or, rather, would like to see kept in check better than they have been -- and nothing you ever say will change my mind.

Keep:
Presidential Admin
Congress
Supreme Court
Dept. of Defense
FBI
One "Regulatory Agency" with small departments dedicated to each sector of the free market.

Dismantle:
Everything else!

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: cubeless

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: cubeless

Originally posted by: sandorski
If it had to be 100% one or the other, Socialism would be best for the Average person. It doesn't though, Mixed is better than either.

sheesh... you are so deluded... i bet you answered that phone poll...

the 'average' person in the us has more everything (good and bad) than any other 'average' person in the histroy of the planet... the 'average' person under any socialist regime the planet has ever had would think that the 'average' american was a party chief...

The US is NOT a capitalistic country so you should be agreeing with him, a mixed economy is better.

Change your name to clueless because that is what you are, you can't even read a two sentence post and understand it correctly.

There has only been ONE capitalistic country in this world and it was ruled by a dictator named Pinochet and trust me, they had it just as bad as the people in DDR or the SU if not even worse.

Extremism never works, whether it's a political system, an economic system or any other system, to strive for it is to shoot at yourself.

but to assume that any 'pure' socialist system would be any better than any 'pure' capitalist system is a judgement on the people running it... if you had benevolent (i know, that's a fairy tale) people in either system there's benefit for all... an intelligent capitalist bastard doesn't kill the means of production...

Why would a pure socialist system be better than a pure capitalist, they are equally horrible, one isn't better than the other.

Pure capitalism is essentially corporatism in todays world and pure socialism is communism, the choice you have is who your masters are because both equate monopolistic dictatorships.

AGAIN, and try to read this fucking sentence this time, a MIXED ECONOMY which is what EVERY first world country has (coincidence? Well you are so stupid you probably think so, but it isn't) is the key to any kind of success, even China does fairly well with a mixed economy even though it's a dictatorship.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: shadow9d9

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: IGBT
Socialism is great way to make all equally miserable. you guys voted for it so don't complain.

It's kinda sad that people don't even know what socialism is.

In fact, it's pathetic.

Everyone is playing semantics with words. We aren't dealing with pure definitions, we are dealing with the words as how they relate to reality.

What is the definition of is in this fucked up discussion where words don't mean what they are supposed to mean?

How can anyone have a discussion if they can't even agree what the words they are using really mean?

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: Nemesis 1

Originally posted by: Vic
At their farthest extremes, the only difference between absolute capitalism and absolute socialism is that the state is renamed the company. The real battle in this country is not between these 2 relatively similar economic philosophies, but between the opposites of authority and liberty.

You really have a good grasp of reality.:sun: With your own words carry that thought forward to the inevitable conclusion.

Unlike you, he really does, i'm still waiting for you to show me a picture of the Euro that has the tower of Babylon on it which proves that the EU is out to destroy the world.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: miketheidiot

Originally posted by: cubeless

Originally posted by: sandorski
If it had to be 100% one or the other, Socialism would be best for the Average person. It doesn't though, Mixed is better than either.

sheesh... you are so deluded... i bet you answered that phone poll...

the 'average' person in the us has more everything (good and bad) than any other 'average' person in the histroy of the planet... the 'average' person under any socialist regime the planet has ever had would think that the 'average' american was a party chief...

the socialist countries of northern europe have the highest standards of living in the world, and they work less.

And yet, they are less socialist than the US, IOW, they have less market regulations imposed by the government.

Christ, people really need to learn the definitions of words if they are going to use them.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: Vic
Whoa there people... capitalism and socialism are ECONOMIC philosophies, not political ideologies. As such fascism is most definitely in the socialist 'theology,' just on the right-wing side. And the countries in Europe being referred to are NOT democratic socialisms, but social democracies. And yes, there is a difference.

This should be stamped in the foreheads of some people so they can understand the definitions of the words they are using when they are discussing politics they clearly don't understand.

Thank you Vic.