JohnOfSheffield
Lifer
It's kinda sad that people don't even know what socialism is.
In fact, it's pathetic.
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Lovely.
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It's kinda sad that people don't even know what socialism is.
In fact, it's pathetic.
So looks like the French, Italian, and Spanish budgets are over-estimated, and the Chinese, Mexican, and Russian are under.
I wonder if Japan includes their defense force in its military budget numbers, because it's quite large and powerful despite being their national guard.
I wouldn't want a pure socialist or capitalist society.
I'd prefer a lean toward socialism though.
Those policies which do make sense and increase the common good should be enacted.
Public schools, basic health care (full range coverage isn't really reasonable, but free vaccinations, checkups, and basic medicines to prevent the spread of disease and minor injuries should be), industry watchdogs.
cubeless
Diamond Member
sheesh... you are so deluded... i bet you answered that phone poll...
the 'average' person in the us has more everything (good and bad) than any other 'average' person in the histroy of the planet... the 'average' person under any socialist regime the planet has ever had would think that the 'average' american was a party chief...
JohnOfSheffield
Lifer
The US is NOT a capitalistic country so you should be agreeing with him, a mixed economy is better.
Change your name to clueless because that is what you are, you can't even read a two sentence post and understand it correctly.
There has only been ONE capitalistic country in this world and it was ruled by a dictator named Pinochet and trust me, they had it just as bad as the people in DDR or the SU if not even worse.
Extremism never works, whether it's a political system, an economic system or any other system, to strive for it is to shoot at yourself.
You want semantics? Fine.
The soviets described themselves as communists. Their Ultimate goal was communism. We (Americans) called them commies during the cold war.
In political science, a Communist state is a state with a form of government characterized by single-party rule of a Communist party and a professed allegiance to a communist ideology as the guiding principle of the state. The former soviet union fits all these categories.
But moving on, lets get to the root of the issue here:
Unlike communism, socialism has a more variable definition. The type of socialism we're talking about in this thread (as per the Rasmussen Report) has more to do with European Democratic socialism. Your way off topic. The type of "socialism" your talking about, has more in common with Stalinism and Communism than with the type of socialism we're discussing.
Again, I'll turn to this quote:
When you automatically think of the USSR when you hear the word socialism, you really do need to educate yourself a bit more. The right wing Asshats on Fox news have brainwashed you into thinking that socialism is some kind of societal disease that should be eradicated. They then call Obama a socialist to get you to hate him. What you need to understand is that in many developed countries such as France, England, Canada, and Japan, socialist ideals have done a great deal of good. Communism died with the collapse of the USSR, but socialism is still thriving in many countries today. Why else do you think there were so many rallies in democratic European countries during the G20 by ordinary people AGAINST capitalism FOR socialism?
cubeless
Diamond Member
but to assume that any 'pure' socialist system would be any better than any 'pure' capitalist system is a judgement on the people running it... if you had benevolent (i know, that's a fairy tale) people in either system there's benefit for all... an intelligent capitalist bastard doesn't kill the means of production...
PrinceofWands
Lifer
You are confusing educated with greedy.
I am suprised this hasnt been addressed, but another noteworthy data point is this:
It seems somewhat shocking how thin the margin is between democrats preferring socialism versus capitalism. It makes me rather nervous to think this is becoming, or has become a 'mainstream democrat' philosophy.
It seems somewhat shocking how thin the margin is between democrats preferring socialism versus capitalism. It makes me rather nervous to think this is becoming, or has become a 'mainstream democrat' philosophy.
Vic
Elite Member
At their farthest extremes, the only difference between absolute capitalism and absolute socialism is that the state is renamed the company. The real battle in this country is not between these 2 relatively similar economic philosophies, but between the opposites of authority and liberty.
Because we labeled them commies during the cold war that makes it so? Who is being brainwashed here anyways?
Did you come up with that by yourself or did wiki help you? Dont bother answering.
I dont consider Europe's socialism to be socialism at all. They are mixed market economies just like the USA.
Marx's Communism remsembles a utopian direct democracy than what you saw in the Soviet Union.
I think your entire arguments premise really drives home what I wrote earlier.
When you think of socialism you think of Europes mixed market economies, not the Soviet Unions of the world. You either willfully or ignorantly believe that the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, because they were run by a party that called itself communist was indeed not socialist. That socialism has a kinder more gentle side in Europe. You are trying to rewrite history by calling them communists and making a distinction in an attempt to gloss over the horrors of socialism.
I suggest not insulting as much you do and try to understand what the end goal of Marx's communism was and how it would look nothing like the socialism we saw in the Soviet Union. Now I agree the Soviet Union is what communism looks like in the real world. It never gets past the socialist step on its way to utopia communism. Because it is impossible to have anything more than a small group of people be able to live in that type of system. Somebody has to make the executive decision, organize the infrastructure, plan the crops ect. Marx is interesting in his final stateless classless society looks more like something many would try to achieve in this country. A direct democracy. IMO his final step looks a lot like anarchy than the totalitarian state we see in real world communist states.
A few examples. In Vietnam, if you're retired, you have to depend on your kids or other family members to take care of you. If you're really smart and, you can take great advantage of the US welfare systems. Many immigrants get welfare from the states while having their own businesses at their homes. They use the welfare money to take nice vacations every year. My aunts in Vietnam worked as teachers all their lives, when they retired, they didn't get any pension. My mom has to send money back every year to support them. Only the higher ups of the communist party members get pensions, free health care, etc. There is almost no safety net for the unemployed. The best hospitals are reserved for government officials and their family members and people with money (actually, the people with money are communist members). If you want to open a small business in the US, you have to deal with many laws and regulations. In Vietnam, not so much. Sometimes you need to pay some money to the local bosses to look the other way. In the US, you have to pay taxes to support many government programs, (FICA is a tax on the poor), and you have to deal with the IRS at the end of the year. In Vietnam, businesses have to pay taxes, sometimes you only deal with the local bosses, but many workers don't.
Zebo
Elite Member
Really Does not matter what they want SKoorb. Shit flows downhill.
Consumers, Businesses, and Municipalities owe Tens of Trillions of Dollars....soon they will learn that there is not enough money for consumers, businesses and municipalities to pay back the debt let alone provide new services. The Bankers and MIC already extorted trillions of free money from taxpayers, now the Bankers are raising our credit card rates, not very stimulative if you ask me, and there is a lot of reckoning to be had with job loses, business closings, low tax receipts, etc which only puts governments in further bind.
We are already too infected with toxic debt at unsustainable levels, nothing but being austere will remedy this.
Consumers, Businesses, and Municipalities owe Tens of Trillions of Dollars....soon they will learn that there is not enough money for consumers, businesses and municipalities to pay back the debt let alone provide new services. The Bankers and MIC already extorted trillions of free money from taxpayers, now the Bankers are raising our credit card rates, not very stimulative if you ask me, and there is a lot of reckoning to be had with job loses, business closings, low tax receipts, etc which only puts governments in further bind.
We are already too infected with toxic debt at unsustainable levels, nothing but being austere will remedy this.
You think I insulted you? A little sensitive are we? Not trying to insult you at all, just trying to educate the uneducated.
You obviously didn't comprehend what I wrote earlier, so I'll say it again.
With this sentence: "You are trying to rewrite history by calling them communists and making a distinction in an attempt to gloss over the horrors of socialism", you just proved that you fit in this 85%. You have no idea what socialism is, no clue. The horrors you discussed were brought about not by socialism, but by fascist dictator name Stalin. It was Stalin who created his cult of personality, it was Stalin who had the secret police purge his enemies, it was Stalin who built concentration camps, it was Stalin who committed genocide on his own people. Socialism is a system of social organization, nothing more. It committed none of the horrors that you spoke of.
Furthermore, I am not the one "trying to rewrite history by calling them communists". They called communists period. Americans called them communists back in the day, we call them communists now. They refer themselves as communists, the history books call them communists, their political party is called the communist party. It is you who is trying to rewrite history by calling them socialists.
I'll say it again. You have been brainwashed by Fox news and the republican party to equate socialism with the failed communist state of the USSR. That's how the republicans are able to get you so mad at Obama. You think of his policies being socialist and you automatically think Russia, China, Communist, and a red flag. Want proof of this? Google images -> Obama Stalin and you'll see photoshops made by right wingers like you depicting Obama as Joe Stalin.
The kind of socialism we are talking about in this thread, the kind of socialism that America and other modern democratic nations such as Canada and Europe are involved in, has nothing to do with cold war era USSR communism. The kind of socialism we're talking about here is nationalized healthcare, welfare reform, increased education spending, increased banking regulations. But people like you don't see that, when the word socialism is mentioned the first thing that pops into your head is a picture of Mao and Stalin. And to be honest that's really sad.
Vic
Elite Member
If I were a pessimist, I would say the inevitable conclusion would be that authority wins with a socialist agenda under the guise of capitalism. Or more likely, an authoritarian mixed economy that simultaneously appears to the individual as whatever they want it to be and don't want it to be. Oh wait, we already have that.
I usually tend, however, to be more optimistic than that. The beauty of individuality and liberty are that they cannot be taken away by force, only surrendered.
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