Louisiana atheist vilified for objecting to prayer in public school

[Zebo]

No because they are hypocrites. Still doesn't change the fact the courts would say it's legit and civil libertarians would. This country is all about pluralism and people who think otherwise need to get over themselves, including atheists trying to put up unconstitutional barricades.

 

[Rainsford]

No because they are hypocrites. Still doesn't change the fact the courts would say it's legit and civil libertarians would. This country is all about pluralism and people who think otherwise need to get over themselves, including atheists trying to put up unconstitutional barricades.

Individual prayer is definitely protected and a key part of civil libertarian beliefs. But the debate here (as far as I understand it) is whether or not schools should be allowed to make Christian prayer an official part of a school event, particularly when participation from the student body is explicitly or implicitly expected. That's pretty much the exact opposite of pluralism.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Please be more specific.



When you live in a democracy, that is how it works. When there is no issue, you accept things to a degree of common sense. Only when morality and common sense is in decline as a group we must stand against it. But you read to me at the moment as a militant fundamental religious nut similar as can be found in Afghanistan. No democracy. No giving in.

Yet there IS an issue. Religion in the public sphere is an anathema to peace and to equality. I, and numerous others (as shown in this case), suffer mightily at the hands of religious egocentrics who abuse any who do not join them in their delusions. This must not be allowed.

Obviously the forceful restriction of religion in public is not a good answer, as it creates as much abuse towards religious people as not doing creates towards the non-religious. However, until we reach a true solution (which can ONLY be the fragmenting of the nation into more ideologically homogeneous ones) it's the best we can do.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Suffer mightily. Please expound

 

[Drako]

Religion in the public sphere is an anathema to peace and to equality.

Really?

I guess in your mind, free speech in the public sphere is an anathema to peace and equality as well.

 

[smitbret]

The 14th amendment in conjunction with 1st amendment says NO to school prayer.

I'm an atheist.

Fowler should have just STFU and not followed along. Atheists can be the biggest pussies on the planet, I swear. They/we are the biggest example of smarter people having the narrowest vision.

"The christian, white man is bringing me down"

 

[PrinceofWands]

Suffer mightily. Please expound

Ostracized from school and social functions, assaults, mental and emotional cruelty, grade penalties, disciplinary actions, destruction of private property, negative ramifications to employment (and thereby basic economic sustainability), etc.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Really?

I guess in your mind, free speech in the public sphere is an anathema to peace and equality as well.

It definitely interrupts peace and can be a bane to equal treatment in the same way that religious issues can. That being said, this nation was founded on the idea that it was worth the trade off, and I can go along with it more or less. By that same argument, however, the nation was founded on the idea of keeping religion and state separate, so I go along with that as well. For those that want the two to mix (ie a theocracy), I think they should be free to form their own nation/government where that is a basic, founding principle. More power to them. Just stay the hell away from me with it.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Ostracized from school and social functions, assaults, mental and emotional cruelty, grade penalties, disciplinary actions, destruction of private property, negative ramifications to employment (and thereby basic economic sustainability), etc.

That sucks, and should never have happened, but I don't get it. Many people I know are religious and they don't have these problems. I know as many who aren't and they still don't.

The people I work for have no idea what my religious beliefs are. How do they know about yours?

 

[PrinceofWands]

That sucks, and should never have happened, but I don't get it. Many people I know are religious and they don't have these problems. I know as many who aren't and they still don't.

The people I work for have no idea what my religious beliefs are. How do they know about yours?

I'll speak in generalities, combining my own experiences with those of others I know or have heard in academic studies, support groups, etc.

1. Kids are cruel, especially young kids. ANY negative distinction in elementary school is likely to cause at least insults, friction, etc. This then snowballs to the later problems I mentioned. It has a boomerang effect of also creating more negative behaviors in the individual as they suffer each round of increasing abuses. My own frictions started in 1st grade, and by 5th grade were firmly established as a fact of existence.

2. PEOPLE are stupid, and evil, even if the individual people aren't. Groupthink is pervasive and mighty. While individuals you know might never knowingly do something intentionally cruel, when they are in a group (or merely join their power to a collective force) they usually lose such inhibitions and begin acting out of egocentrism, often with violent or at least negative impacts.

3. Small towns (up to say, 100,000 population) are NOT society as a whole. They are bare-faced microcosms of human nature. Anything that happens in a small town is known by all, and will be remembered for at least decades. I am still told from time to time - "Hey you're the kid that wouldn't say the pledge" or "You're the kid that got kicked out the Scouts during the oath" or "You're the guy that wants everyone to carry guns" or "You're the guy that hates America" or whatever. Yeah, I'm outspoken and have always been a part of the campaigning and public awareness aspects of various causes, but I'm not the only one that this stuff happens to. It's a global small town phenomenon.

4. Many, if not most, places I've ever worked have at least one religious nut, if not an overt environment of religious overtones. Merging of church functions and work cliques, invoking God for various reasons - even in official practices, asking for or offering prayers for various reasons, etc. Combined with the small town 'everybody knowing everybodies business' it means anyplace you're going to work will know your beliefs. Mind you, this isn't as true at very large places of employment or national chains, but it still happens. Many even make religious principles part of their business creed.

That's just off the top of my head.

 

[Xellos2099]

I wish I could be more constructive, but you simply don't know what the hell you're talking about.

The kid was addressing a conflict between a state-run/funded institution and a religious exercise.

And yes, prayers can cause brain damage. Or certainly thought damage.

Well, so I guess everyone who ever take a witness stand on court has major brain/mental damage since they are require to swear to a bible that they will say nothing but the truth? Why do people honestly think he is as noble as he claim? I am not saying what the school did to him is right, but to me he just look like who won the biggest dickhead competition.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Well, so I guess everyone who ever take a witness stand on court has major brain/mental damage since they are require to swear to a bible that they will say nothing but the truth?

They are in NO WAY required to swear to God, nor upon a bible. That's a media fiction. Such a requirement would be a clear violation of Article VI of the Constitution, and has been so held numerous times by SCOTUS.

 

[pcgeek11]

They are in NO WAY required to swear to God, nor upon a bible. That's a media fiction. Such a requirement would be a clear violation of Article VI of the Constitution, and has been so held numerous times by SCOTUS.

They just Swear or Affirm ...

 

[zsdersw]

Individual prayer is definitely protected and a key part of civil libertarian beliefs. But the debate here (as far as I understand it) is whether or not schools should be allowed to make Christian prayer an official part of a school event, particularly when participation from the student body is explicitly or implicitly expected. That's pretty much the exact opposite of pluralism.

Expected != required.

 

[werepossum]

You know, you do have freedom from speech because you have freedom of speech.

It's why you aren't forced to listen to anyone...



EDIT: I don't think you've been alive for 200 years, so who is the "we"? If there's one thing I don't see much of in this country, it's a hive mind or singular thinking. And then I suppose we have to define harm, as you've introduced a new notion to this. Want to expound on that a little further?

Gotcha. you can choose not to listen, unless of course someone mentions G-d, in which case you are dragged kicking and screaming into their religion without any recourse. Makes sense to a progressive I suppose.

"We" represents our country, our nation, the people of the United States of America. Please do try to keep up.

 

[spittledip]

As A Christian myself, I can only say that such behavior is completely un-Christ-like and should not be tolerated by anyone who calls themselves a Christian, be it a group or individual. I also know what it is like to not be accepted by people who call themselves Christians, and treated poorly as a result b/c of some difference in ideology or personality. I am sure you had a worse time of it though. I am sorry you had to undergo such harsh treatment.

Also, the kid in this article should not have been treated the way he was either. What causes this type of behavior is a culturally-absorbed Christianity, not a Biblically-informed Christianity.

He has shown you, O man, what is good;
And what does the LORD require of you
But to do justly,
To love mercy,
And to walk humbly with your God?

Micah 6:8

I'll speak in generalities, combining my own experiences with those of others I know or have heard in academic studies, support groups, etc.

1. Kids are cruel, especially young kids. ANY negative distinction in elementary school is likely to cause at least insults, friction, etc. This then snowballs to the later problems I mentioned. It has a boomerang effect of also creating more negative behaviors in the individual as they suffer each round of increasing abuses. My own frictions started in 1st grade, and by 5th grade were firmly established as a fact of existence.

2. PEOPLE are stupid, and evil, even if the individual people aren't. Groupthink is pervasive and mighty. While individuals you know might never knowingly do something intentionally cruel, when they are in a group (or merely join their power to a collective force) they usually lose such inhibitions and begin acting out of egocentrism, often with violent or at least negative impacts.

3. Small towns (up to say, 100,000 population) are NOT society as a whole. They are bare-faced microcosms of human nature. Anything that happens in a small town is known by all, and will be remembered for at least decades. I am still told from time to time - "Hey you're the kid that wouldn't say the pledge" or "You're the kid that got kicked out the Scouts during the oath" or "You're the guy that wants everyone to carry guns" or "You're the guy that hates America" or whatever. Yeah, I'm outspoken and have always been a part of the campaigning and public awareness aspects of various causes, but I'm not the only one that this stuff happens to. It's a global small town phenomenon.

4. Many, if not most, places I've ever worked have at least one religious nut, if not an overt environment of religious overtones. Merging of church functions and work cliques, invoking God for various reasons - even in official practices, asking for or offering prayers for various reasons, etc. Combined with the small town 'everybody knowing everybodies business' it means anyplace you're going to work will know your beliefs. Mind you, this isn't as true at very large places of employment or national chains, but it still happens. Many even make religious principles part of their business creed.

That's just off the top of my head.

 

[jackstar7]

Gotcha. you can choose not to listen, unless of course someone mentions G-d, in which case you are dragged kicking and screaming into their religion without any recourse. Makes sense to a progressive I suppose.

"We" represents our country, our nation, the people of the United States of America. Please do try to keep up.

Again, not someone, but a representative of the state, which is sworn not to establish a religion.

And you see how your "we" implies some kind of intellectual homogeny that I don't think has ever existed?

No need to add useless digs.

 

[werepossum]

Again, not someone, but a representative of the state, which is sworn not to establish a religion.

And you see how your "we" implies some kind of intellectual homogeny that I don't think has ever existed?

No need to add useless digs.

A valedictorian is NOT a representative of the state, a prayer does NOT establish a religion, and I'd bet prayer in school has more substantial majority support than does most of what the federal government does.

 

[Vette73]

A valedictorian is NOT a representative of the state, a prayer does NOT establish a religion, and I'd bet prayer in school has more substantial majority support than does most of what the federal government does.

A valedictorian is chosen by the state, gets that title from doing work from a state run program, and is giving a speach at a gov event.

 

[HumblePie]

A valedictorian is chosen by the state, gets that title from doing work from a state run program, and is giving a speach at a gov event.

He is correct in this. When a student is chosen to give a speech and that person accepts, they are acting as an agent at the behest of those that chose them. In this case the student giving a speech is acting as an agent for the school. As such, they are required to conform to any and all regulation pertaining to any and all agents/employee's of the school.

A student sitting in one of the chairs during the ceremony that isn't chosen to do any actions at the behest of the school can most certainly stand up at any point at yell out, "In Pastafarian's name we pray! Ramen!" or whatever religious words they want to spew out. That action would not be regulated by governmental laws like an agent's would. However, such a student may or may not be disciplined by the school and not the government for disrupting a service they were performing.


The major point is that public schools are paid for by tax dollars that come from everyone. Since the money comes from everyone, then everyone deserves equal representation. There is several ways to grant equal representation, but the best and simplest is to not grant any representation. That is equal to all. This goes for any event or agent of the school.

 

[thraashman]

A valedictorian is NOT a representative of the state, a prayer does NOT establish a religion, and I'd bet prayer in school has more substantial majority support than does most of what the federal government does.

Majority support is not a good indication of right. If majority support was what's right then we wouldn't have a court system designed to be able to overturn laws that were unconstitutional.

I can feel where this kid is coming from. I had a teacher single me out, eject me from class, and threaten to get me suspended for my own silent protest in high school. I refused to stand for the pledge of allegiance as I feel that the inclusion of the phrase "under god" is mocking of my belief and indicates that as an atheist I am not part of this nation. I never said a word, just chose not to stand, he saw this and demanded I stand, I said no and gave him my reason. And that was for something relatively small. It's amazing the ways we often try to force a judeo-christian belief set on children in public schools nowadays. This student chose to stand up to something that was wrong and unconstitutional and I applaud him. I only wish I'd heard about this before the chip-in was over.

 

[thraashman]

Fetuses aren't alive? Seriously? What fucked up biology book tells you THAT? Do they magically come to life when they are born and get their first taste of government cheese? Or is it their first day of government education that gives them that magical, mystical spark of life? Sheesh!

That's some ballsy trolling to claim that killing babies isn't killing babies but opposition to government redistribution is killing babies. I hope for your sake that you're either severely chemically impaired or suffering from an open brain injury at the moment, to justify such ignorance. Otherwise, just wow.

I never did respond to this. According to the biological definition of life in order to be alive an organism has to be able to maintain biological processes for self sustainment. Seeing as a fetus cannot do this and requires the host womb of the mother, it is not alive. It is hard to determine the exact moment at which something becomes alive, but to try to say that from the moment of fertilization that it is alive would be biologically irresponsible and ignorant.

 

[werepossum]

I never did respond to this. According to the biological definition of life in order to be alive an organism has to be able to maintain biological processes for self sustainment. Seeing as a fetus cannot do this and requires the host womb of the mother, it is not alive. It is hard to determine the exact moment at which something becomes alive, but to try to say that from the moment of fertilization that it is alive would be biologically irresponsible and ignorant.

Wow. Lord save us from this new, politically correct generation, for since we've abandoned any pretense of science we're going to need it.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

A valedictorian is chosen by the state, gets that title from doing work from a state run program, and is giving a speach at a gov event.

Wait. If someone were to get an award because he was recognized by the state then he's an "agent" as well by your incredibly loose standard. You go in front of a judge and argue equivalence between a valedictorian and an administrator, good luck. You'll never have another client again.

 

[woolfe9999]

Wait. If someone were to get an award because he was recognized by the state then he's an "agent" as well by your incredibly lose standard. You go in front of a judge and argue equivalence between a valedictorian and an administrator, good luck. You'll never have another client again.

You're right. Legally the valedictorian is not an "agent" by virtue of being a valedictorian. If a school administrator asks the student to deliver a prayer, then in doing so he is acting in a capacity as an agent for the state. Just clarifying the legal point. Agency is a specific legal concept with a specific meaning.