Lost a job offer - need an opinon on this

[PsiStar]

These topics and especially pay should have been done over the phone.

It is a good idea to write down the topics prior to the call & take notes. The HR person could easily have divulged what *they* think the going rate is AND the whole thing does not drag out for you OR them. By emailing you also miss out on the tone of voice and that is very important.

I am currently doing the same thing. The phone interviews and face to face interviews have totaled to 8 so far. I think this equals the total number of interviews for all other jobs that I have had my entire career! And, there is the possibility of 2 or 3 more phone interviews. I am going thru a headhunter on this so I knew the pay range up front and it is up to the h/h to negotiate the final figure. This I am good with.

The scripted response to "how much do you want"? Is, "I am sure that you will offer competitive and fair compensation". The h/h is supposed to do the final negotiation.

A down side with using h/h is that you can be pressured by the h/h to take the job in the end if you have been mostly up about it. That makes sense, but "mostly" up is not the same as "absolutely no question". Saying "no" at that point can burn bridges, as I have done, but not with the potential employer ... in my case.

Before you agree to letting a h/h throw your hat in, you have to establish that the h/h has had a working relationship with the employer. At least if you have never worked with the h/h before. They ought to know the hiring manager as well as people in HR. The h/h should critique your resume to ensure that the right stuff for the position is prevalent and is the ultimate buffer for pay negotiation. I have known my h/h for >10 years & he has called me several times about possible positions I could be interested in.

Just a few thoughts ...

 

[lokiju]

Wait you're a systems administrator with 6 years experience as a systems administrator but you just graduated and will be moving out of your parents?

Also where do you live that a systems administrator with 6 years of experience only gets paid $22-26 per hour and also isn't also considered senior systems administrator?

Unless your "IT" experience is 6 years while being a systems administrator specifically is less.

 

[SnOop005]

Wait you're a systems administrator with 6 years experience as a systems administrator but you just graduated and will be moving out of your parents?

Also where do you live that a systems administrator with 6 years of experience only gets paid $22-26 per hour and also isn't also considered senior systems administrator?

Unless your "IT" experience is 6 years while being a systems administrator specifically is less.

I've been working throughout college (Jan 04 - now). So 6+ years in IT field. Did about a year of supporting desktop then worked my way up to managing servers. This job is in SoCal LA area.

 

[spidey07]

Why would you say that the rate they offered would create a significant reduction in your standard of living? If that's true then why would you entertain their offer at all? I assume they knew you already have a job right? So, you were either lied when you stated that or you wouldn't have accepted the job at that rate.

I have used the "I've got a mortgage and bills to pay" angle when making the point that I simply cannot accept what they're offering. Although I say it jokingly and face to face. I was always taught that your personal situation is never justification for a raise, promotion or salary negotiation. They don't care about that, they just want the best person for the job and are willing to pay a premium for that person. The trick is hooking them on you first and THEN negotiating salary.

You played it correctly. If you don't ask or negotiate then they low ball you. Another trick to negotiating is you have to be willing to say no, which is why having a job works so well in your favor. You don't HAVE to take the job. Now the secret is to get them to pay you what you believe you are really worth. The extra two bucks is only 4k a year, no company is going to care about that kind of increase. Most don't care about an extra 10k or even more. Use salary.com as they are highly accurate.

 

[slag]

sys admin for under $35/hour? You don't want that job unless admin over 10 windows computers or less

 

[SnOop005]

sys admin for under $35/hour? You don't want that job unless admin over 10 windows computers or less

The place have a little over 100 computers and about 5-6 servers.

 

[spidey07]

The place have a little over 100 computers and about 5-6 servers.

That explains the low rate. They were looking for a helpdesk type person and even then the rate is low. Aim higher.

 

[zerocool84]

In many cases they are right unfortunately.

Yep tons of people with better qualifications are all playing for the same jobs. They got someone for cheaper.

 

[SnOop005]

Thanks alot guys. You guys are giving out some good advice and inputs, i really appericate it.

I really hate the feeling of regret and dissappointment especially something this big but nothing i can do now. I'm scheduled for a phone interview for another sys admin position closer to where i live. Any pointers?

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Don't worry about it. Unless this was a highly-desired company that everyone wanted to work for, they aren't worth worrying about.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

I really hate the feeling of regret and dissappointment especially something this big but nothing i can do now. I'm scheduled for a phone interview for another sys admin position closer to where i live. Any pointers?

Try to interview with larger shops. Small shops are OK to work for, but if you want money, exposure to lots of cool technology, and possibly upward mobility, look for bigger companies.

Oh, and negotiate over the phone. If you sent several emails back and forth, it probably really irritated them.

 

[BoomerD]

In many cases they are right unfortunately.

I continue to look for a bookkeeper/accounting clerk position and I'm competing with people with BA/BS degrees in accounting on a regular basis for these "entry level" positions that offer no real advancement opportunity. Will those with more education move on once the job market improves? Probably, and the companies know that, but they still hire them over people with lesser education...because they can, and because they know people are desperate for any kind of job. <shrug>

 

[SarcasticDwarf]

One thing to keep in mind is who is interviewing you vs. who you have to work with vs. who you are negotiating pay/benefits with. In most of the jobs I have interviewed for I have ended up spending far more time talking with HR and those who I would not be working with instead of my actual boss. In my current job I was lucky. I told him what I was looking for and he told me the range they were thinking of. I added a few thousand more to that to be in the middle of the range and said that if they wanted me to stick around and be content with the pay to offer me that.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Thanks alot guys. You guys are giving out some good advice and inputs, i really appericate it.

I really hate the feeling of regret and dissappointment especially something this big but nothing i can do now. I'm scheduled for a phone interview for another sys admin position closer to where i live. Any pointers?

Meh, don't worry about it. I'm out of work right now and have had many promising interviews that I thought I nailed only to find out later that they chose someone else...

 

[SandEagle]

you started the letter off with 'Hi'? Reads like a 9th grader wrote it too. Should have negotiated over phone or had someone else write a more professional letter for you. sorry

 

[ModerateRepZero]

I have used the "I've got a mortgage and bills to pay" angle when making the point that I simply cannot accept what they're offering. Although I say it jokingly and face to face. I was always taught that your personal situation is never justification for a raise, promotion or salary negotiation. They don't care about that, they just want the best person for the job and are willing to pay a premium for that person. The trick is hooking them on you first and THEN negotiating salary.

You played it correctly. If you don't ask or negotiate then they low ball you. Another trick to negotiating is you have to be willing to say no, which is why having a job works so well in your favor. You don't HAVE to take the job. Now the secret is to get them to pay you what you believe you are really worth. The extra two bucks is only 4k a year, no company is going to care about that kind of increase. Most don't care about an extra 10k or even more. Use salary.com as they are highly accurate.

And I thought I was the only one wondering why the OP used his personal situation (living adjustment) as a basis for haggling over salary instead of his potential.

I'm a little curious though why you consider his play "correct", especially since his personal situation was the basis for salary negotiation.....

 

[CRXican]

damn kids these days, greedy

 

[gorcorps]

A good company who really wanted you would have turned down your offer without giving the job away. It's probably better you didn't work for them... sounds like a pretty poorly run place.

 

[spidey07]

And I thought I was the only one wondering why the OP used his personal situation (living adjustment) as a basis for haggling over salary instead of his potential.

I'm a little curious though why you consider his play "correct", especially since his personal situation was the basis for salary negotiation.....

The play was correct as he justified what he was worth. The only incorrect move was bringing up "standard of living" as that should only be used when relocating.

That is all that matters - what you are worth and what you think you are worth. If staying in the same area then expenses are immaterial as your out bar has already been set. As an employer, not even a factor.

I've used the "I've got bills to pay" angle as a means to say "You are insulting me". Treat it like buying a car - "c'mon! We've got to keep the lights on in this place! Now what is it going to take to get you in this car you love and make a sale today?"

 

[ModerateRepZero]

The play was correct as he justified what he was worth. The only incorrect move was bringing up "standard of living" as that should only be used when relocating.

That is all that matters - what you are worth and what you think you are worth. If staying in the same area then expenses are immaterial as your out bar has already been set. As an employer, not even a factor.

I've used the "I've got bills to pay" angle as a means to say "You are insulting me". Treat it like buying a car - "c'mon! We've got to keep the lights on in this place! Now what is it going to take to get you in this car you love and make a sale today?"

oh ok, fair enough then. I do have one other question then....as a general rule (assuming it's applicable), once you receive a job offer, isn't it usually more advantageous to let them take the lead (ie. ask 'is the salary open to negotiation?') versus the "hard sell" that the OP attempted?

 

[Miramonti]

Why didn't you negotiate over the phone? If they had said no and explained why, you could probably have still accepted their offer before the end of the conversation and not give them a chance to change their mind.

First reply.... /thread.

That and "significant reduction in standard of living" can sound rather insulting and pompous.

 

[SnOop005]

oh ok, fair enough then. I do have one other question then....as a general rule (assuming it's applicable), once you receive a job offer, isn't it usually more advantageous to let them take the lead (ie. ask 'is the salary open to negotiation?') versus the "hard sell" that the OP attempted?

I had the assumption when a company gives you an offer, it is always negotiable. I really thought part of the reason why my offer was low is because they anticipicated people will negotiate for their compensation and it is a common thing to do. I tend think your first base salary is important because it sets the trend for future salary increase and promotions. I really thought the worse that it can happen was getting turn down of my proposal, but not completely shutting me out of a job, live and learn i guess.

 

[CanOWorms]

I think they withdrew it because you wrote:

If you could see to making these modest improvements to your offer, my performance will show you a striking return.

That almost seems as if you would under-perform if they said no to negotiation and you chose to accept the $22/hour offer. Employers think that you should be performing your best regardless of pay. Your email goes against that.

 

[Svnla]

OP, don't sweat it (except the email instead of phone). We all make mistakes. Live and learn.

Just remember this. There are 6 people looking for 1 job in this job market. At least you are employed. I would yell at you if you are unemployed and bickered over $2/hr.

 

[guyver01]

I had the assumption when a company gives you an offer, it is always negotiable.

And there in lies the problem.

Unless you are Manager/Director level or higher, (and no.. System Administrator isn't even close), most companies wont negotiate anything. Expecially in this market.