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Losing Earth: The Decade We Almost Stopped Climate Change

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So your suggestion is, rather than replace ICE's with Electrics (which exist now) using a power delivery system that exists now... instead of that, we should bank on potentially an experimental alternative carbon-neutral fuel source coming to market which might be competitively priced, which may not require a new engine (thus necessitating the replacement of the vehicle anyhow).. rather than using what we have already available, that's already better than what we have on the road?


By that logic, we shouldn't even use that, let's just wait until we have ubiquitous microfusion tech and hover around on silent CO2 absorbing surfboards.

The technology for alternative fuel production exists. It's a matter of fine tuning. Engines don't need to be replaced but it may require some tweeking of computers.

People can pick a technology in advance of the science if they like. I proposed a solution based on what exists now that would have minimum impact.
 
its too late. Whoever was in charge in the 80's and 90's should of done something. We all know who that generation is.
I do agree it is too late now, when govs act on an issue(except US gov in this case) it is usually too late.
 
I do agree it is too late now, when govs act on an issue(except US gov in this case) it is usually too late.

I wonder what the next generation will blame him for that people couldn't fully understand? We know what "those people" are like.

Alternatives to oil were seen as a wise pursuit by many once the Oil Embargo happened. Just like today people work to kill it for business. Let's see how innovative people become or will they go for half measures and lip service? I'd bet on the latter.
 
I wonder what the next generation will blame him for that people couldn't fully understand? We know what "those people" are like.

Alternatives to oil were seen as a wise pursuit by many once the Oil Embargo happened. Just like today people work to kill it for business. Let's see how innovative people become or will they go for half measures and lip service? I'd bet on the latter.

nobody will beat the boomers killing off 70% of the animals on the planet.
 
The technology for alternative fuel production exists. It's a matter of fine tuning. Engines don't need to be replaced but it may require some tweeking of computers.

People can pick a technology in advance of the science if they like. I proposed a solution based on what exists now that would have minimum impact.
It's always a matter of fine tuning. Net positive fusion energy is 'a matter of fine tuning'. Until you can bring something to market, and have a snowball's chance in hell of overcoming traditional fuel ICE, electric, hydrogen cell, fucking vegetable oil, and whatever else I've forgotten, you're so far behind you shouldn't even be talking about it.
 
It's always a matter of fine tuning. Net positive fusion energy is 'a matter of fine tuning'. Until you can bring something to market, and have a snowball's chance in hell of overcoming traditional fuel ICE, electric, hydrogen cell, fucking vegetable oil, and whatever else I've forgotten, you're so far behind you shouldn't even be talking about it.

Well that would mean something if you knew what I know. I suppose we could say that my being interested in seeing what our real potential sources of energy are means that some woman can't get her kids to the doctor.
 
Well that would mean something if you knew what I know. I suppose we could say that my being interested in seeing what our real potential sources of energy are means that some woman can't get her kids to the doctor.
I wasn't the one blabbering about kids getting to the doctor, that was glenn. And 'what you know' doesn't mean shit until it's on the market, sorry. I 'know' that net positive fusion would change the way the world operates, but that doesn't make it change shit until it arrives.

Until then, don't go around poopooing actual alternatives that exist now (even if it offends your anti-taxation/incentivization sensibilities). We're decades, if not years away from some rather severe (arguably catastrophic) changes to the habitability of this rock. We don't have time to wait for new alternatives to spool up.
 
yeah no biggie.

Just wait til the kids are blaming *you* for everything. Good times. 🙂

Fucking boomers

767px-Bison_skull_pile_edit.jpg
 
I wonder what the next generation will blame him for that people couldn't fully understand? We know what "those people" are like.

Alternatives to oil were seen as a wise pursuit by many once the Oil Embargo happened. Just like today people work to kill it for business. Let's see how innovative people become or will they go for half measures and lip service? I'd bet on the latter.

It's always a matter of fine tuning. Net positive fusion energy is 'a matter of fine tuning'. Until you can bring something to market, and have a snowball's chance in hell of overcoming traditional fuel ICE, electric, hydrogen cell, fucking vegetable oil, and whatever else I've forgotten, you're so far behind you shouldn't even be talking about it.

I’m not sure what you two are actually arguing here.

However the technology to create carbon neutral fuels already exists:
https://arstechnica.com/cars/2017/0...ream-for-car-makers-facing-tighter-standards/


Ellen Stechel, a senior sustainability scientist and the deputy director of Arizona State University’s LightWorks department, agrees that synthetic fuels are not only possible to make economic, but they're also necessary for reducing our dependence on fossil fuels. “Holding out for 100 percent electric light duty fleet is a little bit like making the perfect the enemy of the good,” Stechel said. “What people don’t think about is that with liquid fuels, you’re not carrying the oxygen that makes it react, so they’re very, very energy-efficient.”...

...In Bosch’s paper, the researchers envisioned an international economy where regions of the world with plentiful renewable resources like wind could generate the power needed to produce H2. “The e-hydrogen can be used for fuel cell vehicles or synthesized by additional conversion steps to synthetic methane (e-CH4) or synthetic fuels for an increasing blend in the remaining gasoline and diesel fleet, not only for aviation and navigation but also for commercial and passenger vehicles,” Bosch wrote. The development of synthetic fuel from renewable energy essentially becomes a way to "store" that energy in places where wind, solar, or hydro power is less reliable.


The Navy was looking into a similar process so they could use the spare MW from the nuclear reactors on the aircraft carriers to make aviation fuel from seawater and CO2.
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/innovation/fuel-seawater-whats-catch-180953623/
 
I’m not sure what you two are actually arguing here.
My argument was simply that bashing existing clean technology for the sake of some future not-yet-to-market technology is illogical. Exactly as this article points out, with regards to holding out for 100% electric everywhere. I don't necessarily think there will ever be a one-size-fits-all (at least within our lifetimes), but we do have a pretty damned good solution for the 80% already, and that can go a long way to helping maintain our environment.
 
My argument was simply that bashing existing clean technology for the sake of some future not-yet-to-market technology is illogical. Exactly as this article points out, with regards to holding out for 100% electric everywhere. I don't necessarily think there will ever be a one-size-fits-all (at least within our lifetimes), but we do have a pretty damned good solution for the 80% already, and that can go a long way to helping maintain our environment.

I'm not saying that all existing technologies are bad so perhaps that's our problem of communication. Remember I was discussing the topic with someone who sought to find a problem for every solution. As an example, I selected something that has the potential for very high efficiency and what you can't know is that some of this is academically embargoed for the time being.

Remember the context- the research, development, and deployment of alternatives. If your way or that of someone else is better then use it. but I don't see any reason to believe that our existing methods cannot be improved upon.

I don't have a dog in the fight other than letting the work of scientists be done and results implemented properly an am NOT arguing that we can't adopt what works at the moment. If that were the case I'd be advising against solar as more watts per dollar can be had along with better storage and I've been a solar proponent.
 
NOT arguing that we can't adopt what works at the moment.
But that's literally what you did, right here:
What happens when you tax people who haven't the financial ability to make the significant changes required?

I'm wholly against taxation which causes nothing but hardship disproportionally by requiring the most from those who can afford it the least. I'd much rather create alternatives that make more economic sense and are beneficial to the many who might lose jobs or trade food for gas.

We have the means to skip the punishment for change outdated model and we should use it. Divert existing funding and buy a few less planes that break down more than fly and get shit done.
Taxation works. It needs to be done logically, to not overburden those who cannot afford it, but you blanket stated that we shouldn't be leveraging taxation to facilitate the abandonment of ICE for an alternative (likely electric). When I asked what your alternative was, you brought up the pie-in-the-sky (sorry, that's what it is right now) alternative fuel scenario. A (very gradual) sliding increase in fuel taxation, coupled with extended tax breaks for electrics, and potentially a buy-back program for non-hybrids 5 years or older would go an enormous way towards getting people on the electric bandwagon. Now whether that's a good idea or not is up for discussion, I personally think it's a wonderful idea but I acknowledge that not everyone thinks the same way I do. But fact remains, it works.
 
But that's literally what you did, right here:

Taxation works. It needs to be done logically, to not overburden those who cannot afford it, but you blanket stated that we shouldn't be leveraging taxation to facilitate the abandonment of ICE for an alternative (likely electric). When I asked what your alternative was, you brought up the pie-in-the-sky (sorry, that's what it is right now) alternative fuel scenario. A (very gradual) sliding increase in fuel taxation, coupled with extended tax breaks for electrics, and potentially a buy-back program for non-hybrids 5 years or older would go an enormous way towards getting people on the electric bandwagon. Now whether that's a good idea or not is up for discussion, I personally think it's a wonderful idea but I acknowledge that not everyone thinks the same way I do. But fact remains, it works.

Okay let's do a quick analysis and see what the market opportunity is here. Let's say for sake of argument that cost wasn't an issue (the federal government would subsidize the entire cost for the poors) and that we'd limit all families to one vehicle per household (after all, if the alternative is the earth dies everyone can make some sacrifices, right?) Since most families tend to select cars for their maximum use case (the most people/cargo they'll ever have in the vehicle at once, even if it's only once or twice a year) that means only some folks are even suitable for all-electric vehicles since the largest is 5 passengers (which equates to 4 passengers when considering room needed for kids' car seats). So most families are going to be buying something like the a gas-electric hybrid Chrysler Pacifica EV minivan (at over $40k each) to save some percentage of carbon emissions. Now that we've given away at taxpayer expense several million $30k Ioniqs/Focus Electrics or $40k PHEV minivans for poors, what percentage of those will be unable to realistically use their EV/minivan because they don't have a place to plug it in at home, the range isn't sufficient, or other similar considerations? Or to put it simply, if we could magically snap our fingers and have EVs fall from the sky, what's the maximum addressable market for them even if they were free? 50%, maybe? And how much carbon emissions have we saved in the end after all this effort considering that emissions from vehicles already only account for about a quarter of emissions? "Oh but glenn you're letting the perfect be the enemy of the good....." will be the argument while your side is advocating for solutions that completely upend our society as currently constructed and yet won't solve the doomsday scenario you lay out.

It'd be simpler if most just said "I'd really like to own an i3 or Tesla and would prefer the government subsidize my purchase."

total_ghg.png
 
But that's literally what you did, right here:

Taxation works. It needs to be done logically, to not overburden those who cannot afford it, but you blanket stated that we shouldn't be leveraging taxation to facilitate the abandonment of ICE for an alternative (likely electric). When I asked what your alternative was, you brought up the pie-in-the-sky (sorry, that's what it is right now) alternative fuel scenario. A (very gradual) sliding increase in fuel taxation, coupled with extended tax breaks for electrics, and potentially a buy-back program for non-hybrids 5 years or older would go an enormous way towards getting people on the electric bandwagon. Now whether that's a good idea or not is up for discussion, I personally think it's a wonderful idea but I acknowledge that not everyone thinks the same way I do. But fact remains, it works.

The problem of taxation is that it's a pool of money that's easily diverted. But I am NOT against some subsidies, in fact the whole of what I proposed is just that. You are talking about raising taxes and I am for diverting from a massively bloated military budget. If you want to win, then forget about that option and stick with what you like. The basic foundation of progress you and I envision is close enough for me.
 
(after all, if the alternative is the earth dies everyone can make some sacrifices, right?)

That indicates you aren't serious and I'll go with that.

nly some folks are even suitable for all-electric vehicles

That would be important if it were relevant. You've created an arbitrary and false premise. If fossil fuel were replaced with zero net emission fuels that are compatible with today's vehicles perhaps with some minor adaptions, then she doesn't need an electric vehicle at all, now does she.

So most families are going to be buying something like the a gas-electric hybrid Chrysler Pacifica EV minivan (at over $40k each) to save some percentage of carbon emissions

I'll stop quoting past this point as it's specious. Since most people aren't going to have to purchase expensive technologies before they are ready this and all that follows are build on a foundation of untruths and so your points are invalid. "The poors" as you contemptuously call the majority of Americans need not be thrown to the wolves.
 
I wasn't the one blabbering about kids getting to the doctor, that was glenn. And 'what you know' doesn't mean shit until it's on the market, sorry. I 'know' that net positive fusion would change the way the world operates, but that doesn't make it change shit until it arrives.

Until then, don't go around poopooing actual alternatives that exist now (even if it offends your anti-taxation/incentivization sensibilities). We're decades, if not years away from some rather severe (arguably catastrophic) changes to the habitability of this rock. We don't have time to wait for new alternatives to spool up.
I am embarrassed to admit that I follow the LENR forum (cold fusion repackaged). I still find hot fusion no further along than a lot of the LENR contraptions. But it's the same chicken and egg thing. The LENR scammers pretend to have something just about ready for full production, and they've been continually ready for production for the last 10 years with nothing but a big lawsuit to show for their results so far.
 
The problem of taxation is that it's a pool of money that's easily diverted. But I am NOT against some subsidies, in fact the whole of what I proposed is just that. You are talking about raising taxes and I am for diverting from a massively bloated military budget. If you want to win, then forget about that option and stick with what you like. The basic foundation of progress you and I envision is close enough for me.
And I agreed with you on your premise of diverting, I think the DoD is a huge drain on resources that would be better placed elsewhere.

Okay let's do a quick analysis and see what the market opportunity is here. Let's say for sake of argument that cost wasn't an issue (the federal government would subsidize the entire cost for the poors) and that we'd limit all families to one vehicle per household (after all, if the alternative is the earth dies everyone can make some sacrifices, right?) Since most families tend to select cars for their maximum use case (the most people/cargo they'll ever have in the vehicle at once, even if it's only once or twice a year) that means only some folks are even suitable for all-electric vehicles since the largest is 5 passengers (which equates to 4 passengers when considering room needed for kids' car seats). So most families are going to be buying something like the a gas-electric hybrid Chrysler Pacifica EV minivan (at over $40k each) to save some percentage of carbon emissions. Now that we've given away at taxpayer expense several million $30k Ioniqs/Focus Electrics or $40k PHEV minivans for poors, what percentage of those will be unable to realistically use their EV/minivan because they don't have a place to plug it in at home, the range isn't sufficient, or other similar considerations? Or to put it simply, if we could magically snap our fingers and have EVs fall from the sky, what's the maximum addressable market for them even if they were free? 50%, maybe? And how much carbon emissions have we saved in the end after all this effort considering that emissions from vehicles already only account for about a quarter of emissions? "Oh but glenn you're letting the perfect be the enemy of the good....." will be the argument while your side is advocating for solutions that completely upend our society as currently constructed and yet won't solve the doomsday scenario you lay out.

It'd be simpler if most just said "I'd really like to own an i3 or Tesla and would prefer the government subsidize my purchase."

total_ghg.png

Why are you assuming that I meant every person needed to buy something brand new? There's no reason every person in america would have to go out and buy a $40k EV, nor would I expect the govt to subsidize the whole damned thing. The point is to put pressure on people to encourage their decision in one way, rather than another. Maintain a $5k tax break for the first EV a taxpayer buys for the next 10 years, used or not. Create a 10c/gallon tax, increment by 10c/yr for the next 20 years.

Yes, indeed, the current EV offerings may not be ideal/perfect for every possible scenario, as I've stated many times. That doesn't mean you can't hit the 80% over time with a little pressure. As EV's become more common, you might see some of those other issues (charging options, range) get addressed without having to lift a finger, because the market will adjust to accommodate markets presently out of reach.

If I could afford to own an i3 or Tesla, subsidized or otherwise, I would have pre-purchased years ago. I'm not looking for a handout, I'm looking to ensure my cousins have a world to grow up in that I could recognize.
 
I am embarrassed to admit that I follow the LENR forum (cold fusion repackaged). I still find hot fusion no further along than a lot of the LENR contraptions. But it's the same chicken and egg thing. The LENR scammers pretend to have something just about ready for full production, and they've been continually ready for production for the last 10 years with nothing but a big lawsuit to show for their results so far.
Nothin' embarrassing about following energy tech/research. It's a shame that there's a few fraudsters out there, but they're preying on those that want for better, same as most fraudsters. It's even sadder that ITER shifted from 'net positive fusion energy research' to 'we're testing other ways to make bombs' research, I suspect because wrapping rubber bands around jello is actually pretty hard.
 
But that's literally what you did, right here:

Taxation works. It needs to be done logically, to not overburden those who cannot afford it, but you blanket stated that we shouldn't be leveraging taxation to facilitate the abandonment of ICE for an alternative (likely electric). When I asked what your alternative was, you brought up the pie-in-the-sky (sorry, that's what it is right now) alternative fuel scenario. A (very gradual) sliding increase in fuel taxation, coupled with extended tax breaks for electrics, and potentially a buy-back program for non-hybrids 5 years or older would go an enormous way towards getting people on the electric bandwagon. Now whether that's a good idea or not is up for discussion, I personally think it's a wonderful idea but I acknowledge that not everyone thinks the same way I do. But fact remains, it works.
I agree with taxation helping the solution. But I think if you actually did a full environmental analysis of early retirement of the existing fleet, you'd see that it was worse for the environment then letting them retire through attrition.

Tax breaks are great for developing technologies that are far more expensive, but as they mature it helps artificially keep the price up. I'd rather see taxes going to more public transportation and to improving the efficiency of older homes and buildings. Increasing housing efficiency can have a major impact on lower income people and dramatically reduce energy consumption. We also need to ban historical perservation laws that ban energy efficient technology like dual pane windows and Low-e roofing.

One huge problem with lay people (like Glenn) is they think there must be one grand solution. Niether electricity generation or transportation has ever been a single solution, why does it need to be going forward?

Also we currently have the technology to install a world wide grid that the sun never sets on. I think it'll be awhile, but I'd like to see progress headed that way.
 
But I think if you actually did a full environmental analysis of early retirement of the existing fleet, you'd see that it was worse for the environment then letting them retire through attrition.
Possibly true, and something I hadn't thought about. I'd be curious how the numbers fleshed out.

Tax breaks are great for developing technologies that are far more expensive, but as they mature it helps artificially keep the price up. I'd rather see taxes going to more public transportation and to improving the efficiency of older homes and buildings. Increasing housing efficiency can have a major impact on lower income people and dramatically reduce energy consumption. We also need to ban historical perservation laws that ban energy efficient technology like dual pane windows and Low-e roofing.
All true too, and I wish there was a stronger push for this kind of stuff too. I'd love to see a mandate for solar on any new construction, for example.
 
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