Looks like The Titanic killed a few more people

[pmv]

Apparently a composite engineer went in the submersible in a test dive in the Caribbean and heard cracking in the composite with his own ears and warned Stockton Rush that it was a sign of damage accumulating but it was just brushed aside and ignored.

The RTM alarm system just seems to have been for show.

Pretty damning, that account. Lord, it's hard to muster any sympathy for that Rush dude in particular.

Find myself trying to work out what lessons those of us who are not billionaires need to learn from this (aside from the obvious, of don't go deep sea diving in an uncertified amateur-built submersible...there must be some more general lessons in there...).

 

[skyking]

I watched that video and learned they did not use an autoclave. That is a really mature industry standard practice to ensure a consolidated laminate structure, and they could not be bothered to do that right. They could have rented autoclave time somewhere.
The manufacturer stated that there were fewer than 1% voids in the structure. Maybe he did that by the tried and true displacement vs mass method.
That does not help you if they are all in one place :-|
As to inspecting being not possible, they did waterjet coupled ultrasonic at Hexcel back in the 90's. I seriously doubt that a proper inspection could not be done more than 20 years later.

 

[Zorba]

I watched that video and learned they did not use an autoclave. That is a really mature industry standard practice to ensure a consolidated laminate structure, and they could not be bothered to do that right. They could have rented autoclave time somewhere.
The manufacturer stated that there were fewer than 1% voids in the structure. Maybe he did that by the tried and true displacement vs mass method.
That does not help you if they are all in one place :-|
As to inspecting being not possible, they did waterjet coupled ultrasound at Hexcel back in the 90's. I seriously doubt that a proper inspection could not be done more than 20 years later.

Yeah, no autoclave is nuts.

Yeah, yeah you can inspect with ultrasound or x-ray. Primary composite structures in aviation get 100% inspection for voids and delam. And they get repaired when found. This guy just had no idea what he was doing or wasn't willing to pay to do it right.

 

[Brainonska511]

Yeah, no autoclave is nuts.

Yeah, yeah you can inspect with ultrasound or x-ray. Primary composite structures in aviation get 100% inspection for voids and delam. And they get repaired when found. This guy just had no idea what he was doing or wasn't willing to pay to do it right.

Hell, they could probably use something like surface nuclear magnetic resonance to look at subsurface structure too. I saw some lectures on the technology (eg, exotic uses of nuclear magnetic resonance) when I was in grad school (other uses included oil wells and looking at tire vulcanization).

To make claims that there weren't good ways to look is just a copout reason to avoid doing it right, and just absolutely mind bogglingly stupid, considering the conditions you'd be subjecting the craft to when there are also people inside.

 

[pcgeek11]

Do you even have feelings?

I have more than most people as I rarely use them.
😛

 

[pcgeek11]

Nope. he replied to another poster that mentioned women in submarines with statement they ruined submarine culture. Very clear what he stated and was referring to women. It seems clear you can’t understand context and implication.

They did ruin the Old Submarine Culture. Of which you obviously know ziltch about.

 

[Pohemi]

Apparently the sub should have been built out of steel like James Cameron said.
...
I thought titanium was fucking impressive.. but Stainless Steel.. OMFG

Titanium is strong and super 'hard' but can become brittle at cold temps and high pressures. Steel has more give/flex. For example, with tubing or pipe, Titanium is less likely to bend/dent/fold, but when it reaches that point, it's more likely to shear/snap than Steel is.

They obviously wouldn't be using pure Titanium as it'd be alloyed like it is for most uses, but that's a simplification of it's material properties compared to Steel.

 

[Brainonska511]

The whole carbon fiber thing and acquiring it from an aircraft manufacturer reminds me very much of the old Futurama episode where they visit the lost city of Atlanta:

Professor Hubert Farnsworth : Dear Lord! That's over 150 atmospheres of pressure!
Fry : How many atmospheres can the ship withstand?
Professor Hubert Farnsworth : Well, it's a space ship, so I'd say anywhere between zero and one.

 

[Brainonska511]

They did ruin the Old Submarine Culture. Of which you obviously know ziltch about.

If "women ruined old submarine culture", that sounds like a good thing happened. I think it implies a lot of negative things about the former status quo if adding women into the mix "ruined" it.

 

[Heartbreaker]

Legal Eagle discusses if the Waiver can protect OceanGate from lawsuits. Either way, OceanGate is dead, there is no remaining in business after this.

 

[pmv]

Legal Eagle discusses if the Waiver can protect OceanGate from lawsuits. Either way, OceanGate is dead, there is no remaining in business after this.

Yeah, though this whole affair seems to have been a bonanza for YouTubers in many specialities - as well as the lawyers and engineers there are also psychologists on there analysing exactly what dysfunction Rush suffered from. Can't say I disagree with any of them.

Just occured to me, when this video referred to the claims from those engineers about carbon fibre being a poor choice of material for a submersible, it did suddenly bring to mind the image of a canvas bag or a string vest.

It seems pretty easy to imagine that a material based on 'fibers' is going to be much stronger under tension than compression. Having recently done a grocery shop, it strikes me that as hard as it might be to tear a canvas bag apart by pulling on it, it's not going to provide much protection for the eggs or soft fruit you just bought if you sit on it, is it? Seems kind of obvious to this non-expert.

 

[Heartbreaker]

... there are also psychologists on there analysing exactly what dysfunction Rush suffered from. Can't say I disagree with any of them.

I think it's one of those cases of thinking he was the "smartest guy in the room". He wasn't out to put peoples lives at risk and scam them. He believed his craft was safe, and went on most of it's deep dives. IIRC he was on it's first deep depth dive. He just thought he was smarter than all the people warning him.

Seems common in tech entrepreneurs. Just like Elon Musk thought (probably still does) that he was smarter than all the people warning him away from buying twitter.

Just occured to me, when this video referred to the claims from those engineers about carbon fibre being a poor choice of material for a submersible, it did suddenly bring to mind the image of a canvas bag or a string vest.

It seems pretty easy to imagine that a material based on 'fibers' is going to be much stronger under tension than compression. Having recently done a grocery shop, it strikes me that as hard as it might be to tear a canvas bag apart by pulling on it, it's not going to provide much protection for the eggs or soft fruit you just bought if you sit on it, is it? Seems kind of obvious to this non-expert.

Definitely not the ideal material, but given it survived as many dives as it did, it does seem an area of potential research, that could some day create some kind of CF pressure vehicle that would be viable for deep submersibles, though it would have to be back by ridiculous amount of research and testing.

In reading about other DSV contraction, I came accross on proposal to make the entire pressure hull out of clear Acrylic like the viewports. How cool would that be?

 

[pmv]

I think it's one of those cases of thinking he was the "smartest guy in the room". He wasn't out to put peoples lives at risk and scam them. He believed his craft was safe, and went on most of it's deep dives. IIRC he was on it's first deep depth dive. He just thought he was smarter than all the people warning him.

Seems common in tech entrepreneurs. Just like Elon Musk thought (probably still does) that he was smarter than all the people warning him away from buying twitter.

That seemed to be the gist of most of the YouTube psyche-evaluations - that it was a kind of narcissism.

Definitely not the ideal material, but given it survived as many dives as it did, it does seem an area of potential research, that could some day create some kind of CF pressure vehicle that would be viable for deep submersibles, though it would have to be back by ridiculous amount of research and testing.

I wouldn't put much confidence in it. Seems as if under compression any strength it has will come purely from the adhesive material the fibres are embedded in, so what does it gain from the prescence of the carbon fibres?

The whole specific benefit of CF surely lies in the carbon part, and that is mostly strong under tension?

In reading about other DSV contraction, I came accross on proposal to make the entire pressure hull out of clear Acrylic like the viewports. How cool would that be?

The issue would surely be how you get people in and out of it, without having a weak spot at the hatch? Maybe build such a thing around the passengers and equipment - sealing them in for a purely one-time use, then cut them out of it when they return to the surface!

 

[Heartbreaker]

The issue would surely be how you get people in and out of it, without having a weak spot at the hatch? Maybe build such a thing around the passengers and equipment - sealing them in for a purely one-time use, then cut them out of it when they return to the surface!

The hatch is a potential weak point in any DSV. I expect the hatch will be small as possible and beveled so the hatch door distributes forces similar to the whole sphere would.

 

[APU_Fusion]

Woman in charge of Navy

PCGeek not gonna like this … ruining the Navy

 

[darkswordsman17]

If "women ruined old submarine culture", that sounds like a good thing happened. I think it implies a lot of negative things about the former status quo if adding women into the mix "ruined" it.

But they ruined his he-man wimen haters club!

Woman in charge of Navy

PCGeek not gonna like this … ruining the Navy

Guess he'll have to drown his sorrows in seamen.

 

[pcgeek11]

Woman in charge of Navy

PCGeek not gonna like this … ruining the Navy

I have no issues with women in the US Navy and in Charge. I do not think that they belong in the Submarine Service Culture.

It's all mute moot at this point as the tooth paste is out of the tube. I know many currently serving Submarine Sailors and they freely admit the culture of the Submarine no longer exist. Be it for good or bad.... We are all entitled to our opinions.

 

[brycejones]

I have no issues with women in the US Navy and in Charge. I do not think that they belong in the Submarine Service Culture.

It's all mute

Moot is the word you are looking for.

In your opinion why don’t women belong in the submarine service? Are they incapable of doing the job?

 

[pcgeek11]

Yes moot.

Moot is the word you are looking for.

In your opinion why don’t women belong in the submarine service? Are they incapable of doing the job?

Difficult to explain to a layperson that has no knowledge of the old Sub Culture. In my day the submarine sailors were a rough cut crowd that stuck together and closely knit. Hard work and hard play and usually doing things where ladies and such did not and would not take part in. No we weren't politically correct or the type most girls would take home to mother. Chauvinist and crude, but we did our job and did it better than anyone else.

I guess they will fit in just fine now that the newer Submarines are so modern and luxurious. It's no longer my dog to fight.

We will adapt just as they did when they put females on surface craft. I made an around the world cruise on one of those and when we returned to port more than half the females had been transferred off the ship due to a multitude of reasons pregnancy, fraternization, low performance were the top three. Some were making lots of money on the side, wink, wink.

 

[APU_Fusion]

Moot is the word you are looking for.

In your opinion why don’t women belong in the submarine service? Are they incapable of doing the job?

Yes, da women should be in da kitchen and amaking da babies … they can’t be on submarines because they magically make men act bad you see. Women are responsible for men’s bad behavior so it is their fault for blinking, we all know women who blink are flirting and coming onto men and are demanding to be ravaged. 🙄

 

[fskimospy]

Yes moot.


Difficult to explain to a layperson that has no knowledge of the old Sub Culture. In my day the submarine sailors were a rough cut crowd that stuck together and closely knit. Hard work and hard play and usually doing things where ladies and such did not and would not take part in. No we weren't politically correct or the type most girls would take home to mother. Chauvinist and crude, but we did our job and did it better than anyone else.

I guess they will fit in just fine now that the newer Submarines are so modern and luxurious. It's no longer my dog to fight.

We will adapt just as they did when they put females on surface craft. I made an around the world cruise on one of those and when we returned to port more than half the females had been transferred off the ship due to a multitude of reasons pregnancy, fraternization, low performance were the top three. Some were making lots of money on the side, wink, wink.

I will agree with @pcgeek11 to a certain extent. A few points:

1) lack of political correctness? Who gives a shit. That is not necessary or important. It’s basically excising an unprofessional environment.

2) the issue of women becoming pregnant is a very real thing as pregnant women are non-deployable. My A school saw about half the women pregnant by the end, meaning they all got shore billets (which are highly prized). It’s a real problem.

 

[APU_Fusion]

I will agree with @pcgeek11 to a certain extent. A few points:

1) lack of political correctness? Who gives a shit. That is not necessary or important. It’s basically excising an unprofessional environment.

2) the issue of women becoming pregnant is a very real thing as pregnant women are non-deployable. My A school saw about half the women pregnant by the end, meaning they all got shore billets (which are highly prized). It’s a real problem.

Ah, so it isn’t a woman problem or submarine culture problem; it is a professionalism problem. Let’s blame the women for men’s unprofessional behavior? That is Bullshit. Men can’t keep it in their pants on subs so women can’t serve on them. That is some serious Bullshit. How about we have the men take impotency drugs while serving on submarine then. Keep them nice and professional.

I call bullshit on your political correctness nonsense, that shit works both ways. This was also a question of ruined culture; not professionalism.

 

[fskimospy]

Ah, so it isn’t a woman problem or submarine culture problem; it is a professionalism problem. Let’s blame the women for men’s unprofessional behavior? That is Bullshit. Men can’t keep it in their pants on subs so women can’t serve on them. That is some serious Bullshit. How about we have the men take impotency drugs while serving on submarine then. Keep them nice and professional.

I call bullshit on your political correctness nonsense, that shit works both ways. This was also a question of ruined culture; not professionalism.

I think you misunderstand me - it’s a mutual lack of professionalism but the end result is one of those two unprofessional people can still serve. It’s a real thing.

Oh and to be clear I was denigrating pcgeek’s complaints about political correctness. The workplace should be professional.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Maybe men and women shouldn't be together in tight, confined spaces? 😛

 

[APU_Fusion]

Ah, so it isn’t a woman problem; it is a culture problem. Let’s blame the women. Bullshit. Men can’t keep it in their pants on subs so women can’t serve on them. That is some serious bullshit.

Maybe men and women shouldn't be together in tight, confined spaces? 😛

i think my general issue is the ruining of culture by women for being women. That is utter nonsense. professionalism does not equal culture. they are overlapping parts of a greater organizational whole. If PCGeek stated he didn’t think men and women sailors could be professional in subs, I would understand that practical reality. That is not what he said.