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Looks like Maduro's regime may (or may not) be collapsing in Venezuela

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fskimospy said:
Some people think it’s actions like Maduro putting a loyalist national guard general with no experience running an oil company in charge of the national oil company might have led to the decline of Venezuela’s most valuable assets. You’re not allowed to criticize putting incompetent people in charge of the most important part of the Venezuelan economy though because you aren’t a socialist.
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Yeap, the crippling blow obviously was when oil had the large downturn and the jig was up - the house of cards fell exposing the stupidity.

I mean, that's what every single country that has tried socialism has done though - Taking control of businesses and putting party elites, plutocrats, and friends in TOP DRIVER positions of said companies that have no real clue or understanding of economics, business, or the industry, etc...

It's just pure retardation to expect anything positive will ever occur. And this wasn't a Maduro thing, it all started with Hugo so he should get the brunt of the blame - he is just lucky that the cards fell after he was dead.
 
zinfamous said:
Is it not interesting to you how Putin, and historically Russia, has always believed that they have some sovereign right to not only influence, but to own, via forced occupation, every sovereign, non-slavic nation that surrounds their borders--yet you seem to believe that the US has no business being in the least bit concerned over activities of its neighbors and within its hemisphere?

Why do you endlessly support Putin and Russia for generations of illegal, violent occupations, yet bitch like a little girl whenever the US pays attention to what its neighbors are up to, let alone offers food and material aid to impoverished citizens?
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Putin who has invaded two of Russia’s neighbors in recent years, annexing the territory of one outright and effectively doing so with the other, wants you to respect the sovereignty of other nations. Lol.
 
s0me0nesmind1 said:
Yeap, the crippling blow obviously was when oil had the large downturn and the jig was up - the house of cards fell exposing the stupidity.

I mean, that's what every single country that has tried socialism has done though - Taking control of businesses and putting party elites, plutocrats, and friends in TOP DRIVER positions of said companies that have no real clue or understanding of economics, business, or the industry, etc...

It's just pure retardation to expect anything positive will ever occur. And this wasn't a Maduro thing, it all started with Hugo so he should get the brunt of the blame - he is just lucky that the cards fell after he was dead.
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If by ‘socialism’ you mean a command economy, I agree. The most successful blueprint we have so far is a fairly large social welfare state sitting on top of a market based economy.
 
brycejones said:
You spent many many many words basically saying you prefer the Chinese method which is to completely stay out of internal politics no matter how gross the human rights violations are. This is NOT a position anyone who calls themselves a progressive or liberal should support.
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Do you think Donald Trump, John Bolton, and Eliot Abrams are interested in Venezuela because of human rights violations?

They have said they want the oil. They said it OUT LOUD. Are you uninformed or are you being deliberately dishonest about American intentions in Venezuela?
 
fskimospy said:
I have seen no indication that Maduro is willing to let the aid into the country but a US insistence that it not be inspected before being given out is the sticking point. Can you provide links?
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What is the purpose of the aid? Do you believe the purpose of the aid is propaganda, or do you think it's an earnest and sincere effort to help the Venezuelan people?

I've been very clear that I believe it's the former. What's your opinion?

Maduro is not a legitimate leader, there’s no such thing as a coup against someone when people are attempting to simply stop Maduro’s coup.
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Blah blah blah, unsupported assertions can be summarily dismissed.

Are you fucking kidding me. What loony world do you live in?

Oh wait I forgot, you don’t accept any evidence of Venezuela’s gross mismanagement because any criticism of Venezuela except by Cuba and North Korea is invalid as they aren’t socialist. (Other people: yes, he actually said this)
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Criticism of Venezuela by heavily interested parties is not evidence of anything. Sorry. In what loony world does gross mismanagement justify a coup? Plenty of gross mismanagement in the US government, are you saying that there should be a coup here?

Sure, in the same way that Kim Jong Un somehow keeps getting ‘re-elected’. Lol.

One of us is supporting a lawless seizure of power, that’s for sure. Have you considered that you could be the victim of propaganda here?
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Nice deflection. So you admit that there is no legal basis to remove Maduro from power, there's been no attempt to formally challenge the election results, and therefore the coup is simply another bloody oil grab by the US?
 
Blackjack200 said:
What is the purpose of the aid? Do you believe the purpose of the aid is propaganda, or do you think it's an earnest and sincere effort to help the Venezuelan people?

I've been very clear that I believe it's the former. What's your opinion?
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Irrelevant to any of my points.

Blah blah blah, unsupported assertions can be summarily dismissed.
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I already supported this point you just have no answer so you pretend otherwise. Numerous impartial election monitors said the election was not legitimate.

Criticism of Venezuela by heavily interested parties is not evidence of anything. Sorry. In what loony world does gross mismanagement justify a coup? Plenty of gross mismanagement in the US government, are you saying that there should be a coup here?
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This makes no sense. You claimed Venezuela’s economic troubles were due to issues other than corruption. I just showed you massive corruption in their most important industry.

Can you explain why a loyalist general with no experience running an oil company has business running one in charge of the world’s largest proven reserves? Does that sound like a smart or non-corrupt move?

Nice deflection. So you admit that there is no legal basis to remove Maduro from power, there's been no attempt to formally challenge the election results, and therefore the coup is simply another bloody oil grab by the US?
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Incorrect. The basis is right there in the constitution as Maduro is not the legitimate president due to him rigging the election.

The main issue with that is such complaints need to be brought to the National Electoral Council, something that Maduro and Chavez ALREADY violated the constitution to corrupt. So basically you’re trying to use a previous illegal power grab to justify the current coup by Maduro.
 
Blackjack200 said:
Do you think Donald Trump, John Bolton, and Eliot Abrams are interested in Venezuela because of human rights violations?

They have said they want the oil. They said it OUT LOUD. Are you uninformed or are you being deliberately dishonest about American intentions in Venezuela?
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I gave you my views on the situation. Occasionally bad people are on the right side for the wrong reasons. Is your alternative to allow a repressive regime that is slowly starving its citizens to persist? That doesn’t sound like a very progressive position.
 
brycejones said:
I gave you my views on the situation. Occasionally bad people are on the right side for the wrong reasons. Is your alternative to allow a repressive regime that is slowly starving its citizens to persist? That doesn’t sound like a very progressive position.
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So if a country has food shortages (caused, in large part, by American sanctions) the answer is to topple its democratically elected government?
 
fskimospy said:
Shipping weapons into Venezuela that way would make little sense as any aid from the US is basically guaranteed to be searched and any weapons found a huge diplomatic victory for Maduro. The US might try to ship weapons into Venezuela but I doubt we would do it this way.
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Forget about the "diplomatic victory." Weapons could lead to a huge actual victory for the citizens and the interim president.
 
Jaskalas said:
Correct me if I am wrong, these people were starving to death before United States sanctions on Maduro.
I suppose I am asking, which came first? The chicken or the egg?

Posters here are implying a causality directly to the United States. That WE made them starve? And that food is not food.
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This says the sanctions are "more than a decade" old:
https://fas.org/sgp/crs/row/IF10715.pdf

I don't know how old the document is. Reading from my phone is difficult.
 
sandorski said:
Do you think he's starving his people on purpose? "Quick inspections" is how most Drugs get into the US. Like I said, this is established US SOP.
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Well, he's a bit ignorant to it. He asked an emaciated man why he was so thin and he said on national TV: "The Maduro diet."

All the people already knew of the "Maduro Diet," but Maduro, in his ignorance, may as well say: "Why don't you and your family just eat cake?"
 
Blackjack200 said:
What I'm saying is that lifting the sanctions would do far more for the Venezuelan people than the piddly aid package that Trump, Bolton and Abrams are trying to ram down their throats. There is no issue with chickens or eggs, it's a very plain fact.

That the United States insists on its "aid" rather than lifting the sanctions is conclusive evidence that their interests have nothing to do with helping the Venezuelan people.
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No. The sanctions would benefit the hostile (and oppressive) government and its dictator. The food aid would benefit only the people.

Don't be a Chavez / Maduro tool.

They didn't enact sanctions for no reason at all. The obvious and stated goal is to diminish the existing government and encourage the people to replace the dictator and rulers with less hostile leaders. Why stop now while the goal is nearly reached? Offer help to the people. Continue to encourage them. Let Venezuelans deal with Maduro. We don't help him.
 
fskimospy said:
Irrelevant to any of my points.
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Yes, of course your points avoid it because when you examine the behavior of the United States here, it's crystal clear that they're trying to install a right wing government to control the Venezuelan population and give American companies access to their oil.

I already supported this point you just have no answer so you pretend otherwise. Numerous impartial election monitors said the election was not legitimate.
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A few US backed "impartial" election observers expressing concerns over an election does not delegitimize it. That's not how it works.

This makes no sense. You claimed Venezuela’s economic troubles were due to issues other than corruption. I just showed you massive corruption in their most important industry.
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Yes! It's possible to have corruption that is not the most important factor in a crisis. I already allowed that there is corruption in the Venezuelan government.

Can you explain why a loyalist general with no experience running an oil company has business running one in charge of the world’s largest proven reserves? Does that sound like a smart or non-corrupt move?
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No, it sounds corrupt. It also sounds like something that's going on in our own country.

Incorrect. The basis is right there in the constitution as Maduro is not the legitimate president due to him rigging the election.
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I've not seen any serious legal opinion that Guaido's claims are legally or constitutionally grounded, but you're welcome to provide a link! Maybe you could get Alberto Gonzalez or someone like that to agree, but no one whose opinion should be respected.

The main issue with that is such complaints need to be brought to the National Electoral Council, something that Maduro and Chavez ALREADY violated the constitution to corrupt. So basically you’re trying to use a previous illegal power grab to justify the current coup by Maduro.
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Wait, you mean like when Mitch McConnell violated the constitution to corrupt the supreme court in 2016? So if an election challenge went to the SCOTUS, a foreign power would be justified in determining that our own governing administration was actually a coup (and supporting overthrow of the existing government)?
 
Blackjack200 said:
Yes, of course your points avoid it because when you examine the behavior of the United States here, it's crystal clear that they're trying to install a right wing government to control the Venezuelan population and give American companies access to their oil.
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Okay.

A few US backed "impartial" election observers expressing concerns over an election does not delegitimize it. That's not how it works.
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You’re pulling a SlowSpyder here. Basically the entire world agrees the election was illegitimate. This isn’t a controversial opinion.

Yes! It's possible to have corruption that is not the most important factor in a crisis. I already allowed that there is corruption in the Venezuelan government.

No, it sounds corrupt. It also sounds like something that's going on in our own country.
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That’s just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to corruption there. Venezuela’s problems are largely their own fault.

I've not seen any serious legal opinion that Guaido's claims are legally or constitutionally grounded, but you're welcome to provide a link! Maybe you could get Alberto Gonzalez or someone like that to agree, but no one whose opinion should be respected.
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Interesting, so you declared his challenge illegitimate without even doing any research into the issue.

Wait, you mean like when Mitch McConnell violated the constitution to corrupt the supreme court in 2016? So if an election challenge went to the SCOTUS, a foreign power would be justified in determining that our own governing administration was actually a coup (and supporting overthrow of the existing government)?
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Mitch McConnell did not violate the Constitution in denying Merrick Garland a SCOTUS seat. He violated governing norms, but that’s a very different thing.

Chavez and Maduro, on the other hand very much violated the constitution as it related to the NEC. Its members were supposed to be appointed by the National Assembly, but instead the president appointed his loyalists to the position. Now the only way to ‘legally’ challenge Maduro’s fraudulent election is through a body he controls. That’s never happening.

Look, if you want to support Maduro’s coup because you find him ideologically friendly, or because you’re mad at US foreign policy or whatever that’s fine. Why not just admit to that instead of inventing an alternate reality where Maduro won legitimately?
 
This is the longest\slowest coup in modern history. Going on year 17.

It was well orchestrated across 3 administrations. The plans secretly uncovered by investigative journalists found a single piece of paper with a single bullet point to carry out the coup. It read

Let Chavez run the economy.
 
brycejones said:
I gave you my views on the situation. Occasionally bad people are on the right side for the wrong reasons. Is your alternative to allow a repressive regime that is slowly starving its citizens to persist? That doesn’t sound like a very progressive position.
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He is retarded to the point where he thinks if we just let off our sanctions they would magically become prosperous and would feed all their people. He is delusional to the point of pure stupidity.
 
fskimospy said:
Look, if you want to support Maduro’s coup because you find him ideologically friendly, or because you’re mad at US foreign policy or whatever that’s fine. Why not just admit to that instead of inventing an alternate reality where Maduro won legitimately?
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The question really is - what is his motive for being so stupid?

Is he honestly at a point where he thinks if America just took their evil boot off their throat that they would be thriving and that Venezuelans would be living in huge prosperity under the socialist dictatorship?

The reality conflicts with his unicorn farts, so he blames 'Merica.
 
Blackjack200 said:
A good overview

https://www.mintpressnews.com/john-pilger-war-venezuela-built-lies/255422/

Should the CIA stooge Guaido and his white supremacists grab power, it will be the 68th overthrow of a sovereign government by the United States, most of them democracies. A fire sale of Venezuela’s utilities and mineral wealth will surely follow, along with the theft of the country’s oil, as outlined by John Bolton.
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That country hasn’t been a democracy since the first time Chavez was elected.
 
Blackjack200 said:
A good overview

https://www.mintpressnews.com/john-pilger-war-venezuela-built-lies/255422/

Should the CIA stooge Guaido and his white supremacists grab power, it will be the 68th overthrow of a sovereign government by the United States, most of them democracies. A fire sale of Venezuela’s utilities and mineral wealth will surely follow, along with the theft of the country’s oil, as outlined by John Bolton.
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Did you just say "Guaido and his white supremacists"? Do you understand who Guaido is? Do you understand who stands behind him? If you think it's white people then you clearly have some fucking vision problems you stupid twat.

Unsurprisingly once again, you have reached EPIC stupid levels. Consider spilling your brain cells on the sidewalk tonight knowing how useless they are.




EDIT: I just have to double clarify here because I have to emphasize - You are seriously mentally retarded. Seek some help. Based on your linked article you're in some imaginary pixie dust land with unicorn farts that believes that Venezuela was prospering and was all honkee doree if it weren't for the evil US meddling in their amazing socialist dictatorship

Again, that takes a VERY special kind of stupid to believe that. EPIC levels of stupid. Please for the love of god don't reproduce you stupid fucking retard.

You are hereby on notice not to wish death on another poster, even rhetorically, again.

Perknose
Forum Director
 
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