Looking to make a career in networking. Have some Q's though

[kschaffner]

First of all thank you for taking the time to read this.

So, after much thought I decided I want to make a career in networking. I have been working as a Technician for about 3 years now and just want to step up in the world. I have been looking at getting my CCNA (along with "Cisco Network Specialist Technical Certificate of Credit" from my Tech School), A+ (just because some places require it) and possibly others if advised. I was wondering if having the 3 years of actual work experience but about 5 doing repairs and building on my own would be good experience to help possibly get a job. I can also add to my tech experience by continuing to work.

TL;DR - 3 year exp tech looking to get job in networking with CCNA and A+.

If anyone has any insight or suggestions it would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Emulex]

honestly: i would let you cable some ethernet and watch but never touch. maybe give you a pager. very entry level. Cisco without real cisco experience is dangerous. I've had CCIE's that were too dumb to check a board rev against a bios upgrade and waste hours of time.

A+? nobody wants that. What you need is CCDA and CCNA with specialization in the area of your desired expertise

 

[cmetz]

kschaffner, you need a four year degree in something, or you will end up slamming into a glass ceiling in your career. Many medium to large sized companies simply require it above a certain structural and/or pay level. If you really love this stuff, go get an IS degree. CS and real engineering is even better, with commensurately more difficulty to get them.

Certificates help with entry-level positions. CCNP is the minimum requirement in many shops to be able to actually touch a device. There is no substitute for hands-on experience. There is no substitute for actually understanding. The certs mean nothing for either of those. That's time and experience. Expect to start at the very junior level and work your way up. Once you move up into mid-level and senior-level positions, get those certs off your resume, as they start turning in a liability. (i.e., if you're really that senior, why would you waste your time on a A+ or a CCIE? hmm...)

In any entry-level job, you need to look carefully at what opportunities you will get to learn, and what kind of mentorship you will have. Some places are pretty progressive and will try to train you up (both formally, and on-the-job), while others will try to keep the junior people from advancing and wanting more money or to leave. Make sure you find places to work that will benefit your ability to learn, not hold you back.

IT proper gets old after a while. You might consider what your end goals are, career wise. If you really like IT stuff, you might seriously consider picking up some business education as well (BBA for example). If you're working for a medium to large sized company as an IT manager, your ability to be successful is directly linked to your ability to understand the greater business's needs and work in those terms with the executive staff. (because it's cool?= NO. Because its ROI far exceeds the MARR and we have the capital available?= YES.) If you want to be a consultant or otherwise independent, business skills are needed to get the jobs and make them profitable.

I would also encourage you to spend some money on independent studying and playing. Want to really learn cisco? Hit eBay or the like and pick up some old gear, set up your basement lab, and learn. I'd also suggest picking up an old J-series Juniper box. Old, used gear can be had cheap, and have maybe 80% of today's features, and you can at least learn as much as you can about those so you have a solid footing to learn the rest on latest gear.

 

[kschaffner]

What if I were to pick up an Associates degree of Networking Specialist at my college whilst still getting at least the CCNA? That would fit into my time frame before moving.

 

[Emulex]

if you know the ccna the degree really means nothing. but good luck on the ccna. it is hard. folks want CCDA+CCNA since you need to architect (design) and implement

 

[cmetz]

kschaffner, in my opinion, the degree is more important than the certification. They do, however, mean very different things.

Again, the key phrase here is "four-year degree" (from a real university, BTW). That must be your goal. Many, many employers' HR droids put you in a different bin if you do or don't have a four-year degree. Lacking one will cause you to have problems getting a decent paying job at a mid- to large-size company. It's not fatal, but it will make your career choices more limited.

Starting out with an associates degree in community college and then transferring to a university is a reasonable strategy as long as you can stay focused on your education. Once you get a taste of the real world, it's very hard to stay focused on your education.

CCNA really, really doesn't mean anything. That's the cert they give to sales people, for example. CCNP is the absolute minimum to play, and it's easily possible to get a CCNP and not have any clue about how anything actually works due to the structure of the exams. I knew a bunch of guys who just memorized the sample tests and study guide / how to beat the test books and passed their CCNPs... had never touched a real router or switch before in their life, and to this day don't know a darn thing about the real world. That's why you see people telling you that the certs aren't worth much.

 

[cmetz]

kschaffner, also, the biggest gap I see in IT people is a failure to understand business, so it's in your career interest to learn what you can there too. Even online and book sources can be helpful. An IT person who understands the business context of IT and can talk that language fluently with the C level will go much farther than just a good solid techie.

 

[drebo]

, and it's easily possible to get a CCNP and not have any clue about how anything actually works due to the structure of the exams.

I wouldn't really say that's true anymore. I just took the CCNP ROUTE exam and you really need to understand the material to pass it.

That said, I was able to pass it without doing two of the simulations (they were broken).

 

[kschaffner]

Would it be a waste of time for me to pick up the CCNA and try to get a entry level networking position? I would take 1 year of courses before doing so to give me some experience in using the equipment.

I know that the pay won't be like zomg. But I would assume 30k to start out.

I also would think that different areas are going to require different skill sets. I'm sure major technological cities would want vastly experienced people more so than a 50-100k pop mid western city.

If anyone else has any input it would be greatly appreciated.

 

[xSauronx]

Would it be a waste of time for me to pick up the CCNA and try to get a entry level networking position? I would take 1 year of courses before doing so to give me some experience in using the equipment.

I know that the pay won't be like zomg. But I would assume 30k to start out.

I also would think that different areas are going to require different skill sets. I'm sure major technological cities would want vastly experienced people more so than a 50-100k pop mid western city.

If anyone else has any input it would be greatly appreciated.

a mom and pop kind of shop or a small business that needs an IT generalist to do a number of things might take someone on with an associates and a ccna; i was looking at the same thing you are.

i actually have a network tech aas and did the cisco courses...good prep courses and some lab equipment, but ultimately i realized that unless i have the bachelors i wont go very far, so i am working on that now.

id suggest seeing what transfer opportunities are available in your area. a nearby uni has a CC transfer program so i took my net tech degree and went right into working on my BS that I will finish next year. the uni offers CCNP courses, I may end up taking some of those or may go down another path...but id suggest looking in to all of your options right now so you can be ready to try and get in somewhere for the fall or spring semester.

the CCNA is tough, i didnt study quite well enough and will have to re-study to take it again and pass. its not impossible, but you have to be very thorough in your studying, you can definitely get the CCNA without ever touching real equipment, but its not exactly "easy"

 

[alkemyst]

The Cisco tracts have gotten much harder esp recently where there is more configuration and troubleshooting being tested.

The reality is if you know CCNP and can speak to it, you will be able to find a good paying job. Areas like Atlanta can't find enough engineers. I was recently hired with just a CCNA (I do have IS/IT experience, but not much in networking beyond simple things).

Degree is not that important, many engineers do not have them, but later do go for MBA's if they do enter management.

Everyone talks about the CCIE that didn't know how to do something trivial...IMHO it's just story telling. While there are a few that are slackers, it's pretty hard to not know your stuff at that level.

Getting a CCIE in 12-24months is definitely obtainable. You will have to make an investment in books and gear, but by FAR much less than the average 4 year degree. You can expect to spend 40 hours a week in study on this goal.

If you know your stuff, a CCIE should have no problem pulling in $90k-$120k right off the bat. There are a lot of small shops looking for CCIE's at $30-40k, they are pipe dreaming.

CCNA without real gear is very possible. Even CCNP is. However, I'd advise against it at the CCNP level because configuration and knowing how to just go to port FE0/1/23 and the like are things you will be expected to understand...on a simulation you don't touch the physical stuff.

I am looking at building my CCNP lab now. I have about 6 months to get CCNP and my CCNA wireless (I have my CCNA already). I have to do this while working and doing the job. It's a sacrifice. The flipside is every certification I get, I get paid more. As long I I keep learning, my company keeps finding uses for me.

If I want to throw in the towel and go on cruise control I can do that too. As long as one is doing a great job at their level all is good.

I will say in this line of work I see very few 'unhappy' people. The ones I have encountered usually are in the form of being pushed too hard by an employer and being underpaid. These are usually young adults that came on without experience and took on the responsibilities needed. Unfortunately too many companies out there dont want to take that entry level guy that was making $15-20/hr and start paying him what's fair ($25-35/hr entry level network engineer)...once they figure out jumping ship they usually fall into a company that knows the value of good associates.

 

[alkemyst]

Would it be a waste of time for me to pick up the CCNA and try to get a entry level networking position? I would take 1 year of courses before doing so to give me some experience in using the equipment.

I know that the pay won't be like zomg. But I would assume 30k to start out.

I also would think that different areas are going to require different skill sets. I'm sure major technological cities would want vastly experienced people more so than a 50-100k pop mid western city.

If anyone else has any input it would be greatly appreciated.

You don't need 1 year of classes. That would be insane. Get the books from CiscoPress and add on as you find some interest in them (hitting up a book store and browsing is a good way).

I found Cisco IOS in a Nutshell, The Cisco Cookbook, and Network Warrior through this. VERY GOOD books. Not so needed at CCNA level, but definitely clarify things.

CCNA should take you 2-4months if you are serious. No one is going to expect a CCNA to be a network guru. Be able to speak it though. Understand how routers and switches "talk", really understand Spanning Tree. Understand why things may not be working. Know how to take configs from a Senior Engineer and copy them over.

Passing CCNA should be more of a 'just barely' than getting a perfect score. Even Cisco states perfect scores mean that you usually spent too much time not advancing.

CCNA becomes clear once you get CCNP. CCNP becomes clear once you get CCIE...or a ton of experience. Just like any professional degree...you are really fuzzy still until you do your internship/residency.

Obviously though in a smaller town the need for Network Engineers is less. You will probably want to focus on the major metros in a job search.

 

[sactwnguy]

A college degree is not really required but you need a lot of experience to make up for it. I have been doing networking for 17 years and in that time there have only been a couple jobs that I didnt get because of my lack of degree. The majority of those years I have been working for very large companies and it has never been a barrier for me to move up. The hardest part is to get that first job, get a few years experience then hop to the next place, even if just a different group in the same company. I went between network engineering and security several times in one of the companies I worked for. Just dont stay in one place too long, especially if there is nothing new to learn. Be smart about hopping though, if you leave before getting fully vested, usually five years, make sure your new job will pay enough to make up for that money you are walking away from. I have seen people lose over $30k for a job that paid less than $10k a year more because they didnt want to wait a single year and then do the same thing 3 to 4 years later.

As for clueless CCIE's they are out there, and they tend to be too arrogant to realize it. When I was at EDS there was a couple that did changes that were service impacting so I had to approve all their changes and you cant imagine how much rage that generated.

 

[alkemyst]

I will agree there are clueless CCIEs, I just don't buy into the fact that almost everyone here seems to know them especially those with little or no background claiming they corrected them. I hear this a lot in real life, usually by some guy that has gone nowhere in his career..."Oh, Cisco guys...yeah those CCIE's really don't know anything you have to learn in real-life...it's a paper cert!"

 

[drebo]

I wish I had a CCIE paper cert.

 

[Emulex]

what's the percent of folks that pass CCIE lab exam? less than 5% with 10 years cisco experience. $2500 a pop. some folks make it the 4th or 5th time. some don't. now you have CCDE too Are there any active CCIE's on this forum?

 

[alkemyst]

My brother, my boss and about 10 more in my office are CCIE's, my brother is dual (R&S and Storage).

I work for a company that has more senior level engineers in more technologies than almost any other. We also have one of the highest concentrations of CCIEs (and other CCIE level type in non-Cisco techs) of any one out there.

With CCIE from what I have heard from those that have passed it is many simply do not prepare properly. It's a serious effort. Today there are a ton more resources so it has become easier in some aspects, as well as being a single day rather than two.

I haven't met a CCIE that was as clueless as some claim, but there are some that fall into the Primadonna mindset and some that simply don't keep up with it.

Entering this type of work has one reading constantly unless they are lucky and get the lazy man's job of a simple shop that doesn't change.

I work for a consulting engineering firm. Everyday is different. I have only been on for a few weeks and already worked 5 days at a steel mill, working on a revamp for a town's LAN and getting my first solo project on smart power grid technology in the home/business. The last project is something no certification could have prepared me for. I will be trained fully specifically for this task.

 

[lowrider69]

Getting the certs is one thing, experience is another thing. Yeah you can probably get the certs without doing much hands on work and just memorizing things but you will quickly be picked off as a "paper cert" by somebody who really knows what they are doing who works with you. It's very hard to BS your way through this type of work. I have worked with people who I can tell had no clue what they were doing, they had google open every three seconds to find answers for everything and it would take them forever to to do anything.

Another thing that people don't talk about much is unless you do this type of stuff everyday you forget a lot. I've been in that boat, I've gotten rusty in certain areas and had to brush up and come up to speed on the different technologies because I didn't work with them for a while. I'm still rusty with things I used to know inside out. You start working in one area and the other stuff tends to fall by the wayside.

Experience to me is number one but a degree is very helpful as well depending on what your plans are. I know people with degrees who can't tie their shoes but they got the job because they had a degree. I also know people with degrees who are smart and do very well. Then there's people I know with no degrees who do very well for themselves and are very successful. You have to love doing what you do and be motivated. Sounds corny but it's true.

 

[alkemyst]

Unless one braindumps, you aren't going to find many CCNAs that can't perform at their level.

 

[ScottMac]

Regardless of the path you decide on (IMO, a four-year degree + whatever certs & specializations you're interested in would be best), make the effort to learn the material, learn the protocols, and understand them to the best of your abilities.

With 20 years experience and a handful of Cisco certs, I still was filtered out by HR as an "unacceptable" candidate by several companies that insist on a four year degree (ANY four year degree - an Art teacher was more qualified, according to HR). It's Bull$hit, no doubt about it, but that's the real world.

In addition to that, if you decide to change careers, for whatever reason, nobody outside of the networking business know anything about "Cisco Certs," even the CCIE; it means nothing. A degree is always a degree and will carry some weight regardless of your chosen profession. College is like the new high school ... gotta have it (or hope to get lucky ....).

If you only study to pass the exams, you'll ultimately find yourself lacking critical knowledge at the worst times (like, on your "Technical Interview" when you start applying for a job). If you understand the material, really understand it, there is no test question that can throw you off-track; you'll be able to work through a problem and figure out where the problems lay (at least the most likely spots), instead of flop & flail diagnostics with a bunch of useless time-wasting swap-outs.

I would also encourage you to seek whatever hands-on you can get, at nearly any cost/pay scale ... experience pays, and even "trivial' experience can lead to better opportunities for better experience. Look to church or school groups, municipalities, libraries, clubs, old folks homes ... anything to get some time under your belt.

The new generation Cisco CCxP exams are real a$$biters, if the stuff in the books looks easy (or "too easy"), you have the wrong book. Stay away from brain dumps for education, if anything, use them to confirm what you know, as a lead-up to taking the real test.

Good luck, have fun, study hard ...

 

[Ghiedo27]

What kind of bare minimum do you need to start a career? Let's say I get a CCNA. I understand the material to the point of being able to breeze through technical interviews (and I'd already be studying CCNP material), but I don't have either a degree or references. Is there such a huge cutoff for not having either of those that I'd have to accept something like a $25k job for a couple years?

I definitely plan on getting the degree, but my transcripts are a mess and I still owe money to a school, so if I could start working first it would be a huge plus. I live in the Atlanta area is that helps.

 

[ScottMac]

It might be worthwhile for you to find a headhunter and sign up with them. IT should NOT cost you a dime; pro headhunters are compensated by the organization they find the bodies for.

The reason this is likely to work on your behalf is that most headhunters already have a group of accounts they service, and the accounts relay on the headhunter to screen their candidates, in many cases bypassing the HR filters. The headhunter agencies will (usually) screen you through a series of written tests and possibly technical interviews.

Contractor agencies might also be a good "foot in the door;" they also screen and place candidates, and some contract jobs are convertible to full-time positions.

As mentioned above, especially in the current economy, you will probably have to start low and work your way up. There are a lot of well-trained engineers with experience that are also on the market (your competition).

Be prepared to pitch and promote your existing skills in real and practical terms, as well as your intended studies and interests and eager and enthusiastic desire to learn new stuff. Don't BS, it's easy to spot and, in the right places, they'll hang you with your own words.

 

[alkemyst]

Well a technical interview should never be a breeze for a Network Engineer unless you are way beyond the interviewer. They should keep the interview going deeper until you can no longer answer things. The trick here is to know when to tell them you cannot answer.

IMHO that is one of the more important things an engineer brings to the table...knowing when to get help.

Without references things are going to be hard. If you did well on a technical (getting one may be a problem without experience), you shouldn't need to start at $25k.

 

[Ghiedo27]

Are there any headhunters with a good reputation specifically for this kind of thing? For regular job searches are there any buzzwords I should look for / avoid when looking for a starting position?

Thanks for all of the info!

 

[ScottMac]

Are there any headhunters with a good reputation specifically for this kind of thing? For regular job searches are there any buzzwords I should look for / avoid when looking for a starting position?

Thanks for all of the info!

"Insensitivity to toxic chemicals a plus!" is usually a bad sign, but the wages tend to be higher ...







(Just kidding, of course)

Every HH / Agency is going to use their own verbal gymnastics to make the jobs seem as juicy as possible. Watch for "up to" (it's never "at least") and overuse of "possible" - it's possible that you can fly to the moon, but generally considered unlikely.

IMO, you should also stress to the HH that you do not want to be "oversold" to the prospective client ... because once your butt hits their chair, they are going to grill you and if you don't know most of what the HH sold them, they're gonna be pissed that you are wasting their time. Try to review all written materials (like a resume) that they send to the client (BEFORE it's sent) to make sure they don't stretch the truth too much (or omit something important).