Looking to make a career in networking. Have some Q's though

[alkemyst]

Exactly - the lab is far from a "best practices" exam, or even a "build a functional network" exam. Even in the troubleshooting section, which gives people a lot of problems, you aren't necessarily supposed to just solve the problem, but solve it in a very specific way using only a certain # of commands. The other issue is time - they cram all of this material into two parts: a two-hour troubleshooting section, and then a 5 hour configuration section. Everyone I talk to who has failed this exam (including myself) feels that they could get a 100% if they had two or three days to build everything out. Instead you have only minutes to work on a large topology that is totally foreign to you.

I wonder if the voice / security / storage labs are like this? I know that they're hard, but I haven't heard whether or not they kill you with exotic config scenarios and harsh time limits.

At the CCIE level you have to deal with seconds equalling millions of bucks, the only way they know that you really know is to remove all the low hanging fruit.

If you need 2-3 days you should have been able to google it out.

I am all for these tests being insanely difficult, but sadly with all the resources out there they aren't as hard as they were. My brother is a dual four digit CCIE number when the tests went two days and you didn't know if you passed until your plane home already landed.

I need to hit this level eventually. I am in a CCIE (plus all the EMC, VMWare, Juniper, etc) think tank.

5+ more months to CCNP + CCNA-Wireless or bust!

 

[alkemyst]

Network certs mean absolutely zip, nada, nothing outside of the networking community. At least with a degree, ANY degree, it will be recognized regardless of whatever discipline you pursue. And to reiterate, there are a lot of companies that won't even let you in teh door without a degree, usually a four year degree (even Lib Arts, Underwater Basket Weaving, whatever). Motorola (for example only) absolutely requires a degree (for anything that doesn't involve a broom or garbage cart).

I also agree with Jack; a four year degree is the new High School Diploma .... gotta have it.

Except this networking community is what's making the world go around today. Virtualization is everywhere, SAN, VBlock, UCS, VoIP, etc.

This is the new 'college'.

BA's are a dime a dozen unless it's from the MIT, Cornell, YALE, etc of the world. And they can't talk to their degree half the time.

I have more than a BA, but most I have met got their degrees post hire and after they entered management...

 

[classy]

My main argument against your post would be "progress." Twenty-something years ago, it took a factory-trained and experienced person to get

a)computers config'd and loaded,
b) generate a server (with early Novell, you had to build the OS around the hardware and NIC),
c) pull and properly terminate the cable
d) configure the "network operating system" piece in each host
e) configure the applications for proper sharing

Nowadays, your average 6th grader can set up a home network with more sophisticated functionality in a third of the time.

Certainly security apps have advanced, and there are some very technical and complex verticals ... but in each case, progress will (eventually) make it so simple any idiot will be able to do it.

Network certs mean absolutely zip, nada, nothing outside of the networking community. At least with a degree, ANY degree, it will be recognized regardless of whatever discipline you pursue. And to reiterate, there are a lot of companies that won't even let you in teh door without a degree, usually a four year degree (even Lib Arts, Underwater Basket Weaving, whatever). Motorola (for example only) absolutely requires a degree (for anything that doesn't involve a broom or garbage cart).

I also agree with Jack; a four year degree is the new High School Diploma .... gotta have it.

I say this respecfully, bullshit in CAPS. Every single IT ad always requires technical knowledge. And most won't give you an interview without a CERT, not a college degree. Go to Dice, Career Builder, etc and this what you will see "Five years demonstrated technical network experience may be substituted in lieu of degree." Most of the time its 3 years. Maybe where you are its different, but Philly is not bad barometer. A person with a high level cert will get a job 10 times over a person with a business degree.

People are not stupid anymore. HR folks know people trained in actual network technologies being used at their jobs are more valuable than a college student with some unrelated degree. And no, a home network is not even close to being representative of an average work network. I would love to see some 6 year old come in and run a VMware network and design a disaster recovery.

A college degree is great to have and you are 100% right, having one will remove any limitations of growth. But in his career choice, a college degree is second place by a mile. And in most cases his job will pay for him to earn his college degree. There are still places who want a college degree, but that percentage is low.

If he said he wanted to be a programmer, he needs to go to college, no questions asked. But to be a top of the line Network Engineer, not necessary. It really is a fine line, especially in todays market.

 

[ScottMac]

I say this respecfully, bullshit in CAPS. Every single IT ad always requires technical knowledge. And most won't give you an interview without a CERT, not a college degree. Go to Dice, Career Builder, etc and this what you will see "Five years demonstrated technical network experience may be substituted in lieu of degree." Most of the time its 3 years. Maybe where you are its different, but Philly is not bad barometer. A person with a high level cert will get a job 10 times over a person with a business degree.

People are not stupid anymore. HR folks know people trained in actual network technologies being used at their jobs are more valuable than a college student with some unrelated degree. And no, a home network is not even close to being representative of an average work network. I would love to see some 6 year old come in and run a VMware network and design a disaster recovery.

A college degree is great to have and you are 100% right, having one will remove any limitations of growth. But in his career choice, a college degree is second place by a mile. And in most cases his job will pay for him to earn his college degree. There are still places who want a college degree, but that percentage is low.

If he said he wanted to be a programmer, he needs to go to college, no questions asked. But to be a top of the line Network Engineer, not necessary. It really is a fine line, especially in todays market.

Maybe you missed my point: In a few years, a sixth grader (not six year old, but I wouldn't rule that out either) will be setting up multi-image VMs and won't care about disaster recovery, as it will be part of the installation package.

Yes, technology marches on, and people in teh field will need to keep up but what's new, neat, exciting, and different today is ho-hum any-kid-can-do-it stuff in a couple years.

I'm one of the non-degree'd folks that was (fortunately) in the right place at the right time and rode the wave to a pretty good gig (no pun ...). However, I have hit the "no degree, no interview" wall on a number of occasions. With ~25+ years of experience, I still catch flak for not having a degree.

I'm teh last one to say it's impossible to succeed without a degree, but given the choise, IMO, it's much better to have the degree, and some certs, and whatever experience you can pick up along the way than to relay on certs that can still be diluted by "paper" engineers, or leave you with nothing in the event you discover that networking just ain't your thang and you want to do something else.

 

[Ghiedo27]

It sounds like you guys are agreeing more than disagreeing. Maybe it can be boiled down to a rough glass ceiling estimate? For instance, don't bother going past CCNP level specializations without a degree. Don't expect a 6 figure income without a bachelors, etc.

I've gotten the impression that getting to CCNP level certs and 3-5 years experience is the fastest way to get established. Past that schooling makes a lot more sense (and in some cases is reimbursed?) over throwing yourself into studying CCIE material. Am I wrong in thinking this?

 

[alkemyst]

If you can get a CCIE that is a great plan.

CCNP and experience is good. Many places will cover books and tests, usually only classes for CCIE. Many do offer tuition reimbursement for college classes.

 

[m1ldslide1]

At the CCIE level you have to deal with seconds equalling millions of bucks, the only way they know that you really know is to remove all the low hanging fruit.

If you need 2-3 days you should have been able to google it out.

I am all for these tests being insanely difficult, but sadly with all the resources out there they aren't as hard as they were. My brother is a dual four digit CCIE number when the tests went two days and you didn't know if you passed until your plane home already landed.

I need to hit this level eventually. I am in a CCIE (plus all the EMC, VMWare, Juniper, etc) think tank.

5+ more months to CCNP + CCNA-Wireless or bust!

Make sure to keep us posted as you work through this. I for one will be interested to hear your opinions on these tests as you take them.

 

[dailow]

It's HOW the lab scenarios are done. The technology and concepts aren't that difficult, but you had better know exactly how it works. The biggest gotcha is "you must make X happen, but you cannot use this command".

Things like - we're giving you 1000 networks, ensure that only these 100 are redistributed into your IGP. You cannot use route-maps or prefix lists.

What makes the lab hard is they ask you to do such wacked out stuff that you'd never do in the real world, but shows you know it backwards, forwards, sideways and jump out the window to come in the front door (it's specified you can't exit the front door to come in, etc).

So... par for the course for virtually every other Cisco exam?

It's one of my criticisms about Cisco exams and how they do nitpick over every little detail/obscure scenario, but one of the things I learned early in my career is that the most amazing people I work with all pay a LOT of attention to detail. You have to admit that it's these little details that make the difference between a good tech and a great tech.

It sounds like you guys are agreeing more than disagreeing. Maybe it can be boiled down to a rough glass ceiling estimate? For instance, don't bother going past CCNP level specializations without a degree. Don't expect a 6 figure income without a bachelors, etc.

I've gotten the impression that getting to CCNP level certs and 3-5 years experience is the fastest way to get established. Past that schooling makes a lot more sense (and in some cases is reimbursed?) over throwing yourself into studying CCIE material. Am I wrong in thinking this?

Depends on the particular ceiling you're aiming for... management positions generally place more emphasis on soft skills as opposed to technical skills, for example. I'm of the opinion that CCIE is overkill for most networking positions. It's the pinnacle (well, used to be before the CCA was created) of the networking world, but not needed unless you're dealing with an extremely large network.

Keep in mind that CCIE is its own track - you don't need any prerequisites to write the written exam. However, if you do pursue a CCNP, it'll probably cover 75-90% of the topics on the CCIE (R&S) exam. The problem I found was that there's just so much theory that none of it really sinks in until you're out in the field with experience. I did my CCNA/CCNP through a 2 year diploma program which included a lot of hands-on experience with equipment, but a lab environment is just so different from a live network that you lose sight of little details. Labs just "work", so you rarely spend any time troubleshooting which is where all of these details are required.

Everyone's different, but for myself, troubleshooting situations are where I learn and retain the most information. This is where I believe experience has the most impact towards earning a CCIE - all the little details of various technologies will have been burned into your brain by then.

 

[Brovane]

I post my two cents, being in the IT technical field for the past 10-years.

I got my 4-year degree while I was at my current company. I didn't need it to move up but they where paying for it. I actually needed to get Certifications to move up.

One of the things that I am seeing now is the sometimes the requirement for a 4-year degree in a related computer field. When I went to college the computer science department was all about programming and programming theory with really no courses on IT related matters. I know that has changed now. I have my degree in Political Science. I am waiting to see if now shops are going to require 4-year degrees in a technical field instead of just requiring a degree period.

One thing to also consider if you are looking to specialize in networking from the IT side you will probably need to get a job at a fairly large shop 3,000+ users. Below this you have to be more of a generalist where you are doing work on servers to network gear. The bigger shops is where you tend to start seeing people specialized and you are siloed off.

 

[classy]

Maybe you missed my point: In a few years, a sixth grader (not six year old, but I wouldn't rule that out either) will be setting up multi-image VMs and won't care about disaster recovery, as it will be part of the installation package.

Yes, technology marches on, and people in teh field will need to keep up but what's new, neat, exciting, and different today is ho-hum any-kid-can-do-it stuff in a couple years.

I'm one of the non-degree'd folks that was (fortunately) in the right place at the right time and rode the wave to a pretty good gig (no pun ...). However, I have hit the "no degree, no interview" wall on a number of occasions. With ~25+ years of experience, I still catch flak for not having a degree.

I'm teh last one to say it's impossible to succeed without a degree, but given the choise, IMO, it's much better to have the degree, and some certs, and whatever experience you can pick up along the way than to relay on certs that can still be diluted by "paper" engineers, or leave you with nothing in the event you discover that networking just ain't your thang and you want to do something else.

I agree with this. The point I was trying to make was, if you go college it better be for something related. To be a sole network type guy, your cert level and experience should carry you as far as you want to go short of being a head Network Manager.

 

[drebo]

Yes, technology marches on, and people in teh field will need to keep up but what's new, neat, exciting, and different today is ho-hum any-kid-can-do-it stuff in a couple years.

I don't agree with this statement.

Take MPLS, for instance. At its core, it's relatively simple. It was a new, exciting technology a few years ago. And yet it's very, very, very difficult to set up right.

Not everyone can do it.

 

[spidey07]

I don't agree with this statement.

Take MPLS, for instance. At its core, it's relatively simple. It was a new, exciting technology a few years ago. And yet it's very, very, very difficult to set up right.

Not everyone can do it.

There was a time back in the early 2000s that I thought "this is getting too easy, anybody can do it."

These days I'm only seeing it get much, much, much more complicated. Network Experts need to be specializing in a certain area - data center, wireless, mobile, video, voice, provider, storage (soon to be merged with data center).

It's impossible to be an expert in them all now and you have to choose at most two, maybe three.

But that's the next stage of the game - become an expert in your area of networking. I've gotten out of the SP arena and now focusing on data center and wireless. You must adapt, change and learn. Consulting is where the money is at where you tell the CxOs what they need to do. Our architecture meetings now have 4-6 folks who are true experts at what they do to think it out, just to propose the solution/direction.

 

[alkemyst]

One thing to also consider if you are looking to specialize in networking from the IT side you will probably need to get a job at a fairly large shop 3,000+ users. Below this you have to be more of a generalist where you are doing work on servers to network gear. The bigger shops is where you tend to start seeing people specialized and you are siloed off.

Really the best bang for buck comes from landing a job with a consulting engineering firm.

When you are behind income vs behind support there is a big difference in what your compensation looks like.