Looking for a RWD car.

[imported_Truenofan]

i used to fantasize about how much power a quad rotor would make, rarely a triple.
http://www.turborx7.com/20bbasics.htm
the rotary cosmo triple rotor weighs in at just over 700lbs with all accessories, meaning ac, ps, manifolds, turbos and transmission i believe.(i honestly thought it would be a little lighter, just have to wait for triple rotor 16x's, but those would be 24x's)
the racing triple rotor shortblock weighs in just over 300lbs. if you go to the bottom of the page, you'll read about what some people have done with triple rotor engines.
the triple rotor drag cars have hit 1500hp with no failures for four seasons, pretty impressive when you think of it
http://rotarynews.com/node/view/549

personally i dont plan on getting anything greater than 300hp at the wheels, i dont need more and dont want more. I'll be more than happy at 300rwhp with a 1300ish usd rebuild and port, and hell, i dont even need the port job i just want it for more flow. i enjoy going for a circuit course or autocross more than straight power, and on turns, you don't want a car thats heavier, its just not good for it no matter what excuses you make for getting a ls1. a lighter car IS and always WILL be better for cornering, go as supercar manufacturers why they replace as many parts with carbon fiber and aluminum or other light weight materials. if your on a course that has minimal straights, whats going to matter more. turning speed or horsepower?
I'm even thinking of removing the sound deadening in my car via dry ice and a hammer. it would drop the weight by at least 15lbs. I'm removing my ac, my ps, seeing if i can change my water pump to electric or getting under drive pullies for the water pump(for reduction of a possibility of cavitation if i cant get it electric instead) and alternator as well as electric fans to reduce parasitic loss even further. if(big if, more than likely not) i make my car a track car only, i will end up replacing my rear window with a light weight window and replacing both doors with fiberglass doors to reduce the weight even further as well as removing my sunroof and whatever else i can.

 

[imported_hscorpio]

Please double check the LS1 FD weight. Now compare that to the stock FD weight. Next please double check the power of the LS1. Then compare that to the stock 13B power.

Now tell me how "its just not good" to have a hybrid that weighs the same as a stock FD but makes ~100hp more?

You are partly correct, a lighter car is good, but your ignoring power. Its all about the power to weight ratio. Having a light car is pointless if it doesn't make decent power. Hell you could get an old Geo that weighs less than 2000lbs, but its still going to be slow. You can't separate the two. Do some research on all the supercars. Guess what they all have in common? They all have exceptionally good power to weight ratios.

 

[alkemyst]

oh I get it...you think you enlightening me that the rotary engine is really a Wankel engine...

get your exhaust checked man...I seriously think you have a leak.

You clearly are being nothing but a fanboy now.

 

[imported_Truenofan]

jesus christ, scorpio. that weight on the fd. IS STOCK! guess what, that ls1, is a BARE BLOCK. WTF. how can you compare a BARE BLOCK to a FULLY EQUIPPED VEHICLE. that fd, has all the luxuries a common daily driver has. that ls1 HAS NONE. go and strip all that shit off of it, and you will drop weight. oh and guess what, with the stock twins the 13b-rew can run 12's and 11's and pump out up to 400hp. so its easily possible to outdo the ls1, with less money. the most your going to get out of a ls1 than 13b, is more torque along with more weight. since you wish to compare someone who spent who knows how much on it. the amount he spent on a swap, could easily have gotten him a 400-450hp car with a 13b and still be reliable for at least a couple years.
http://www.rx7club.com/showpos...p=3341489&postcount=32
the most he paid to set up that car, maybe 3/4000. how much does an ls1 cost? he could run that engine for at least a couple years as well. matched an ls1 for less weight and money.
a good powered car can only use that power on the straight, you cannot make use of high power or hell, even moderate power on a corner. i understand that power is good, but i don't need 345, and its not worth the cost of converting to a ls1. what i want is a car that handles better in the corners and to do that, i need a lighter car as well. yes your right on the p/w ratio, but i don't need that much as i have said time and time again.
the biggest reason i can see for someone wanting to convert to a ls1 instead of 13b, is that they don't want to work on a rotary, and they want to keep the car stock while maintaining a better power to weight ratio. I'm not doing this, I'm going for a car that I'm going to continually lighten up gradually over a timespan and improve performance via weight reduction. weight reduction helps in every aspect of a vehicles performance, braking, cornering and acceleration. a good power to weight ratio only helps in acceleration. this is why i dont see a ls1 as a usable swap.
wow nice way to call someone names truckboy, just like your other thread when you started calling that other guy names and then said he was calling names first, why don't you mature up a bit and come back in a few years because obviously you cant come up with anything better, since I've proven every opinion you've had right here, FALSE. chew on that for a bit. i was not enlightening you to who designed it. I'm enlightening you to read your own posts and read prior posts before attempting to argue with someone.

edit: additions and moved a few things around.

 

[Modular]

Another vote for an E30 BMW. Drop an E36 M3 engine in there and you're cooking in the straights and the twisties.

 

[imported_hscorpio]

The weights I posted of LS1 FD's were NOT bare blocks, they were fully built running engines. I know you can build a high HP rotary that can match the stock LS1 performance. But your fooling yourself if you think its going to be as reliable as the LS1. Thats one of the main reasons a lot of guys made the LS1 swap, they wanted the high hp and performance without all the maintenance of a modded 13B.

When was the last time you heard of someone swapping a 13B into an LS1 car? Never, it would be counter productive. Yet there is a growing community of people swapping LS1's into 13B cars. Do you honestly think all those people are crazy? Theres a reason they go to all the trouble. Theres a reason people swap LS1's into e36's and even porsches (side note: the porsche and bmw purists get their panties in an even bigger bunch than you rx7 guys.. its actually kind of funny to read their reaction to the LS1 swap). Theres even a lot of people putting the LS1 into mustangs! Think about that, there is perhaps no greater automotive rivalry than chevy vs ford, yet these guys that care only about speed have no problem swapping in the LS1. All of these swaps are a testament to the LS1's performance.

And thats what any sports car should be about; performance. It doesn't matter how you get it or what brand made it. If you can build your car to perform better than an LS1 RX7 while being just as reliable and cheaper then more power to you. I don't think it can be done, but I certainly wouldn't knock it.

The power weight ratio is a lot more important than you describe. You are placing excessive emphasis on weight while acting like power doesn't matter that much. Its the ratio that matters. High power and high weight is slow. Low weight and low power is slow. Low weight and high power is the goal, for all applications. It doesn't matter if were talking about the track or strip, the ideal is to have the highest possible power to weight while maintaining traction.

 

[alkemyst]

I think the difference is truenofan is not really part of the RX7 circle, he hasn't done anything with the car at all.

It's easy to play armchair racer dreaming of things and making spreadsheets of more parts than you'd make in the next 5 years...but until they actually do it they have no clue.

The funny part is these kinds of people have a very different tune later on.

Either they dump the car they praised so long then state it was junk or they perpetually talk about the same mods for years.

On a RX7 forum, he'd get torn a new one. The guys love the RX7, like the rotary, but they aren't into crying blind fandom.

For every happy ending of someone with a FC/FD 13B build, there are dozens of people that followed proper care and have moneypits.

 

[imported_Truenofan]

For every happy ending of someone with a FC/FD 13B build, there are dozens of people that followed proper care and have moneypits.

you do realize, that your own car is one of these right? and that just about any sports car, is also a money pit.(notice i said "just about", not all) and just about all money you put into a sports car in parts, time and labor you will not see when you sell it.

Either they dump the car they praised so long then state it was junk or they perpetually talk about the same mods for years.

honestly, they only bought the car to go fast and do stupid things in it. and when they don't upkeep it more than normal because of the upgraded power, they blame the car and dump it. any upgrade in power, requires more attention to how the car is running, that goes for any engine of any size or type. the more power your running out of an engine, the more upkeep it requires because of the additional stress on the parts. look at racing cars. they usualy tear the engine apart after every race and check tolerances. why? additional stresses on the engine from running it that hard. you cant expect an engine thats dealing with more stress to act the same as the original engine.

on another matter, hscorpio, sorry for the confusion, when i said bare block i meant just everything to run the engine, not just the engine itself(sorry for the misinterpretation of what i said). even so, that stock(almost) 13b powered rx-7 matched the ls1 in hp(not torque though), and it can still be lighter leading to an even greater power to weight ratio, which you seem to emphasize. which leads me to say, a power to weight ratio, will not help you in the corners, it does nothing in the corners. a lower weight with a good suspension will get you better cornering speeds. a power to weight ratio, does exactly what i said it would do, get you going faster in a straight line.
the reason people probably don't swap a 13b in to a ls1 based vehicle, is because they like muscle, they originally liked muscle so why would they swap a "ricer" engine or a small displacement engine into a muscle/big-displacement car? its the complete opposite of what they originally bought and intended the car for. just like swapping a big engine into a small lightweight car is the complete opposite of what it was originally bought and intended for.
fact of the matter stands, is that yes the ls1 is good for big numbers, yes you can make lots of power out of it, but at the expense of weight. it is in fact heavier than the 13b even when is just the able running engine, compared to a fully creature comfort equipped 13b. and no matter how you put it, even at least 50lbs can mean a big difference in terms of cornering ability, let alone the possible 100-200lbs difference in weight compared to the two engines.

the thing im getting at is this. the 13b, can in fact, make just as much power as the ls1 without major modifications, and still be lighter through changes in the engine bay. thus resulting in an even greater power to weight ratio(that you care so much about) than changing to a ls1, and still be pretty damn reliable. you dont need a piston engine to make 400hp.

 

[alkemyst]

repairing something over and over is different than spending money on parts to make if more fun.

You keep repeating things everyone already understands, that really have not much bearing.

FOR THE LAST FUCKING TIME, the LS1's weight does not significantly affect it's choice as an engine over the LS1.

You are going out and debating shaving off things that only the upper echelon race classes worry about. 50lbs moves around on a car just based on gas.

You also fail time and time again not understanding the difference between peak power and overall power. The LS1 at the same power levels will perform much better at everywhere under peak greatly.

You really need to do some things with cars prior to trying to speak like an expert. I am sure you will now go find links of other dudes that have posted yet have not done anything to their cars.

 

[imported_Truenofan]

FOR THE LAST FUCKING TIME, the LS1's weight does not significantly affect it's choice as an engine over the LS1.

yes, it does if you want handling better than stock. yes the engine is light for its size and type, but its still heavier than a 13b with accessories.

You are going out and debating shaving off things that only the upper echelon race classes worry about. 50lbs moves around on a car just based on gas.

um...sorry but if you get serious about any kind of racing, you want as much weight off your car as possible. if your even REMOTELY serious about racing, weight savings can give the biggest performance increase. unlike you, your keeping your car stock because you want all your little creature comforts. i don't need it nor do i want them so throwing a ls1, that DOES weigh more than the 13b will be in the opposite direction i want to go. so if your remotely serious, you don't want it. if its power to weight ratio, a 13b can reach the same power to weight ratio with less power because it doesn't require as much power since it is lighter. torque on the other hand, it is lacking in i will admit. the big engine will give more torque most of the time. any money you save in putting that engine in than tuning a 13b is spent lightening it instead.

You also fail time and time again not understanding the difference between peak power and overall power. The LS1 at the same power levels will perform much better at everywhere under peak greatly.

wasn't it you who said a flat torque curve is better? did you not look at the torque curve of an n/a 13b, is that not FLAT enough for you? it was perfectly level torque until the hp started going up with rpms. as i said, a 13b wont need as much power to hit good power to weight since its lighter and can hit that same hp as the ls1 without the time and expense of swapping engines. so you stick with a 13b, make 380hp as a daily driver for at least a few years and still remain lighter than a ls1 and achieve good handling and a better power to weight ratio than the ls1. as i said, the ls1 is good for high numbers, 500-600+. the 13b can do 400hp and still be daily drivable.

oh and hscorpio, if you read through that post, another guy with a fd says his weighed in just over 2600lbs.....that engine added quite a bit of weight. ericm weighed his 13b powered fd and it was 170ish lbs lighter with a full tank....he's compairing the exact same thing as what the ls1 had, aftermarket intake, exhaust, turbo, and other mods to lighten it, and its 175lbs lighter(roughly). so you've just helped my cause by prooving even further that its 170lbs lighter with a 13b in the same situation.

oh and alkemyst, he was asking if you've ever taken a 13b out, torn it apart, checked tolerances and wear, replaced all seals or ported a 13b and then rebuilt it, not just own one. yet again you failed to respond to a post properly.
i don't get why you guys seem to disbelieve the 13b is just actually quite good. you wont admit it, well when you go and race a 13b with a half decent car and it ends up beating you with less power it might show you something. is it because its such a small engine and people "say" they're unreliable? is it because you know people who didn't take care of them, treated them like any other car and it came back in they're face? i don't get why.

 

[Aikouka]

Originally posted by: Modular
Another vote for an E30 BMW. Drop an E36 M3 engine in there and you're cooking in the straights and the twisties.

Wait, we're still talking about RWD cars in here?

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: Truenofan
oh and alkemyst, he was asking if you've ever taken a 13b out, torn it apart, checked tolerances and wear, replaced all seals or ported a 13b and then rebuilt it, not just own one. yet again you failed to respond to a post properly.
i don't get why you guys seem to disbelieve the 13b is just actually quite good. you wont admit it, well when you go and race a 13b with a half decent car and it ends up beating you with less power it might show you something. is it because its such a small engine and people "say" they're unreliable? is it because you know people who didn't take care of them, treated them like any other car and it came back in they're face? i don't get why.

Yes....Pettitt racing is also local to me (or at least was, not sure if they are still there since they have grown), I have not messed with my own RX7 as I bought it as a temporary car. My brother did a lot to his and as did friends. The latest owned a FD in 2005, he did a lot to his too and mostly the stock turbo kept having issues..

Now to reply *again* to the other things. Flat torque is worthless when you are taking low power. I don't get what you meant at all with 'it was a perfectly flat torque curve until the HP went up with revs' torque determines the HP. They aren't two different items like an intake vs exhaust cam.

No one said (let's keep repeating this) the 13B is terrible. It's just not worthy of modification and when heavily modified sucks in terms of efficiency and reliablity. You almost never see anyone swapping a rotary into another car where any other engine would fit except to be different. Those into S&M are different too...

In racing weight is important but it's the last thing you usually look to do. Dead weight like a spare tire is usually scrapped..once a bunch of the little stuff is gone you may have added a couple ponies. Then you build the car. A turbo/supercharger adds weight....larger brakes add wieght, reinforcement to the chassis adds wieght, your helmet adds weight, and a roll cage adds weight. Get really fancy and a fire suppression system adds weight. What kind have racing have you done? Pinewood derby...no wait...sometimes adding weight there is helpful too.

That 200lbs extra in the LS1 you keep harping about negates any handling advantage the light 13B has. Again though those that have driven both say their is no perceivable difference in handling. You are either armchair racing with an exhaust leak or showing fanboyness.

I never said the 1.3 was a small engine. In reality it's more equivalent to a 3.9...but I would think an expert like yourself would have mentioned that by now, but you haven't.

Please get out there and actually do some stuff with your car. You don't have to wait until it's done to get to a track BTW.

 

[imported_hscorpio]

Originally posted by: Truenofan
on another matter, hscorpio, sorry for the confusion, when i said bare block i meant just everything to run the engine, not just the engine itself(sorry for the misinterpretation of what i said).

Ok, I thought you were crazy for a minute

Yes I care so much about Power to weight ratio. You do too, you just don't realize it. Why do you strip out creature comforts in a race car? To make it lighter, but you are making it lighter to improve your power to weight ratio. For instance you will NEVER hear of someone getting rid of a turbo to reduce weight and "help in the corners". You wouldn't right? Of course not, even though it would make your car lighter you wouldn't do it because it would hurt you by lowering your hp/lbs ratio. There are times when additional weight is a good thing as long as it is improving your performance. The same logic applies for bigger improved brakes like Alkemyst mentioned or some fatter and heavier tires that even though they add weight, will ultimately make the car faster.

Ok so we know the LS1 adds some weight to the RX7. But what else does it add?.... Increased power, increased reliability & lower maintenance, and increased potential power through mods.

Lets go off that number of 170lbs extra weight. How does that affect the cars performance?
stock LS1 FD: 350hp/2850lbs = .123
same car with stock 13B: 255hp/2680lbs = .095

To beat the LS1 you would need to mod the 13B to make roughly an additional 100hp. (lets assume the weight remains constant for simplicity)
modded 13B: 350hp/2680lbs = .131

Thats pretty good, but the main concern is which car is going to be the most reliable and which car has the most usable power. If you only care about cornering and are going to be driving on super tight courses wouldn't you prefer to have that nearly instant on torque an LS1 provides for the times when you do need power?

I'm not denying the 13b is a potent engine. Its has an incredible power to weight ratio. I actually like them and the FD was one of my favorite cars in the 90's that I spent many hours dreaming about in high school. I just like the LS1 better and would prefer to have it. Whats wrong with that? I also think its you that might be surprised when you come across one of these "ruined" RX7's with there "big heavy" LS1.

 

[timxpx]

To the OP - while all Mustangs might apply to what you're looking for, you can look into the Mustang GTS (if you can find one) -- from what i know it was only made in 1995. It's a 5.0L in a the V6 body (think Mustang GT but with less options to reduce wait / things non-essential to performance. Someone I know has one as his daily driver and also takes it to the track occasionally (autox and drag -- running 13.5's, maybe better?).

Anyway, it sounds like something that can break the monotony of a comfortable, well equipped Altima

(As if you didn't have enough options by now.)

 

[Aikouka]

Originally posted by: timxpx
Anyway, it sounds like something that can break the monotony of a comfortable, well equipped Altima

(As if you didn't have enough options by now.)

Definitely has a lot of options, but the car also has some interesting quirks that I think also MrSHiEK would agree with. The seats needing better ummm retaining mechanisms (?) is one. They tend to shift a tiny bit while driving. It gets kinda bad if you tend to corner at higher rates of speed.

 

[imported_Truenofan]

oh yeah i agree with you there hscorpio, the 13b at high power(500-600) is not daily drivable(usually needs quite a bit of modification as well), but a supercharged ls1 will easily make 500+ and be daily drivable. i agree with you there, and it would help p/w ratio of course with additional torque. the biggest reason i want to strip my car, is to make it as light as possible for cornering honestly. major reason I'm not going for insane amounts of power, because i really don't want/need that much. the torque of the ls1 would help a bit, but it also might break the wheels lose, of course you would probably have already compensated for that by getting either more grippy tires with the same width, or going widebody with wider tires too.

Now to reply *again* to the other things. Flat torque is worthless when you are taking low power. I don't get what you meant at all with 'it was a perfectly flat torque curve until the HP went up with revs' torque determines the HP. They aren't two different items like an intake vs exhaust cam.

um....you emphasized the flat torque curve of the ls1(i think)....the n/a 13b, which would be considerably lighter even than the turbo 13b, has a absolutely flat torque curve. i mean that until the hp was getting near peak, the torque was absolutely flat, the hp only peaked out at maybe 125ish, that was probably a s4 13b, the s5 has a bit more power, maybe 20ish hp more, nothing spectacular. but the torque was at peak the whole time they were running it.

I never said the 1.3 was a small engine. In reality it's more equivalent to a 3.9...but I would think an expert like yourself would have mentioned that by now, but you haven't.

people continually argue about what the actual displacement is, some say 2.6, because of the rotation in degrees the e-shaft goes in comparison to a crankshaft, and some go and count every face of each rotor. its up to you how you wish to interpret this.
http://www.myrotarycar.com/por...forum_posts.asp?tid=16 there's one mans rant on how its 3.9 liters.
http://www.megamanual.com/v22manual/rotary.htm and here's a company that designs an upgraded fuel system for the rotary engine saying its 2.6 liters(Google top gear Porsche 924 vs rx-7 and they will say its 2.6liters too). personally its up to you to believe whichever one you want.
i never said I'm a rotary expert, i just said I've studied them for 9ish years, learning how they work. how to improve them and such. i don't know it all, and i will never claim to know it all, i will attempt to proove with whats correct and i will correct myself, as i have shown in here already to hscropio, i am not all knowing and never will be.

honestly its a big "to each his own". whatever you want, go with it, whatever i want, I'm going with it. not everyone wants a big engine in another car. and not everyone wants a small engine in they're car.