Looking for a RWD car.

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: hscorpio
Blasphemy? Its the best mod you could do to those cars. This guy seems to have no trouble with his in autox https://www.motorsportsne.com/...lts/05252007ax_fin.htm">scroll down to u-class</a>

Why would you assume an LS1 powered RX-7 would only be good for straight line?

An acute mis-understanding of the weight of both the LS-1 and the 13B.

The LS-1 engine's full dress weight is only about 450 pounds. Full dress weight for a 13b is about 430 pounds. LS-1 and a T-56 transmission is actually lighter than a 20b with transmission.

The all-aluminum LS-1 is an incredibly light engine, but many people who are unfamiliar with it do not realize that it is weight-comparable to most 4-cylinder engines.

ZV

 

[Aikouka]

Originally posted by: Truenofan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wangan_Midnight he he, i love the old datsuns.

THE DEVIL Z!! AKUMA NO ZETTO!

It was too bad Wangan Midnight was so damned boring... I read a couple volumes in the manga and then watched an episode of the anime, but damn... you might not guess, but it was boring. Maybe it'll be more interesting once the chick with the R32 shows up... but damn was it boring.

 

[kevman]

you looking for a sedan? A 96 q45 would be my choice

 

[imported_hscorpio]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: hscorpio
Blasphemy? Its the best mod you could do to those cars. This guy seems to have no trouble with his in autox https://www.motorsportsne.com/...lts/05252007ax_fin.htm">scroll down to u-class</a>

Why would you assume an LS1 powered RX-7 would only be good for straight line?

An acute mis-understanding of the weight of both the LS-1 and the 13B.

The LS-1 engine's full dress weight is only about 450 pounds. Full dress weight for a 13b is about 430 pounds. LS-1 and a T-56 transmission is actually lighter than a 20b with transmission.

The all-aluminum LS-1 is an incredibly light engine, but many people who are unfamiliar with it do not realize that it is weight-comparable to most 4-cylinder engines.

ZV

That seems to be a very common mis-understanding, especially amongst import enthusiasts.

 

[Aikouka]

Originally posted by: kevman
you looking for a sedan? A 96 q45 would be my choice

Type isn't really of concern, although my current car is one of those beefy sedan types (VQ35-powered Altima).

 

[imported_Truenofan]

the full dress weight of a 13B, would be around mid 300's(13B-RE's are quite good too)
http://www.atkinsrotarymarine.com/index.php(dry, shortblock weight of 170lbs)
20B, yeah its possible that the LS1 would be lighter. though you can still use the stock transmission on the 20B. both require extensive modification(money, and knowledge too.) to fit them in though. so its really up to the user to pick which one they would want.(FC/FD, both will mount up and are capable of 500ish hp from what i hear.)

either way, throwing a ls1 into a rotary forces the cg up forward more than stock since the block is longer and the transmission, as you put it, is lighter(that is, unless you put the thing so far back that you have to make modifications to the body itself). somewhere near 50/50 but not the intended 48/52 of the 2nd gen.
I still like the datsuns more, get one of those. very classy car if its in good condition.

 

[Aikouka]

I saw a 280ZX at work today :Q! Didn't really look at it much as I was heading out to see a movie later (the movie wasn't that good by the way), so I didn't get to look at it much. I think that most people would find having a LS1 in a Japanese car to be quite awkward... I mean powerhouses are powerhouses, but it's almost like a naughty thing to have an "interracial car" .

 

[imported_hscorpio]

Originally posted by: Aikouka
I saw a 280ZX at work today :Q! Didn't really look at it much as I was heading out to see a movie later (the movie wasn't that good by the way), so I didn't get to look at it much. I think that most people would find having a LS1 in a Japanese car to be quite awkward... I mean powerhouses are powerhouses, but it's almost like a naughty thing to have an "interracial car" .

I guess if you consider driving around with a ShitEatingGrin all the time to be awkward. Power is power, and if you want a lot of it in a reliable, small and light package thats not going to cost an arm and a leg then the LS1 is hard to beat. The import guys only criticize it out of ignorance. They are the counterpart to the redneck type that thinks all imports are slow and has no appreciation for engines like the 2jz or rb26. Screw what they think.

 

[imported_Truenofan]

dont get me wrong, big block engines are great for power, and if put in the right car, the proper way, can be just as good with more power.(like i said with the fc, just gotta put the engine way back to balance it like it should be and it's just as good)

and for the shit eating grin. i'll stick with my 1.3liter.

 

[Toastedlightly]

Originally posted by: Truenofan
dont get me wrong, big block engines are great for power, and if put in the right car, the proper way, can be just as good with more power.(like i said with the fc, just gotta put the engine way back to balance it like it should be and it's just as good)

and for the shit eating grin. i'll stick with my 1.3liter.

its not a big block... still a small block . I personally find big engine + little car is always hilarious.

 

[deanx0r]

Originally posted by: Aikouka

Originally posted by: ValValline
Check out Mazda MX-5 Miatas.

Personally I've steered clear of Miatas because of being a larger guy overall, but I've never actually tried to sit in one (for the fear of being unable to get out ). Are they roomier than I suspect or are my intuitions correct?

I can tell you that one Mazda I've been tempted to drive is the RX-7.

The NA Miatas are roomier than the NB (2nd gen) or Honda S2000.

I love my supercharged 94' NA <3

 

[llamajizz]

I would say an e36 bmw as well. I drive a '98 328i sport and it handles great on the corners, especially after I put h&r's on there.

 

[imported_hscorpio]

Originally posted by: Toastedlightly

Originally posted by: Truenofan
dont get me wrong, big block engines are great for power, and if put in the right car, the proper way, can be just as good with more power.(like i said with the fc, just gotta put the engine way back to balance it like it should be and it's just as good)

and for the shit eating grin. i'll stick with my 1.3liter.

its not a big block... still a small block . I personally find big engine + little car is always hilarious.

You'll like this: Civette

I think the whole point being missed is that the LS1 is not really a big engine. Its small enough to fit into most RWD imports easily, without too much modification to the engine bay. I know its intuitive to think a 5.7 liter engine must be significantly larger and heavier than a <2 liter, but its not really. Compare:
FD RX7 with rotary.
FD RX7 with LS1
FD RX7 LS1
Pics are from V8RX7forum

 

[imported_Truenofan]

i dont know if its just me that notices it, but it looks like the v8, sits pretty far forward in that car. in the 13b rx, he still has the fan, rad, and intercooler as well as oil cooler in front of that engine, with room to spair. counting from the back, maybe cylinders 3-4 are right where the towers are, on the 13b. its at the front of the engine. just sayin, that thing sits pretty far forward.

 

[imported_hscorpio]

Here is a view of another FD's engine bay. Text

Its hard to compare the angles, but theres plenty of room in there. I dont think its an issue though, since you end up with near ideal weight distribution anyways.

 

[imported_Truenofan]

http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=505887

my ls1 conversion* weighs 15 lbs more than stock R1, but improved the front/rear weight distribution versus stock R1:

LS1 Rotary
Left Front lbs. 684 718
Right Front lbs. 695 718
Total Front lbs. 1379 1436

Left Rear lbs. 705 660
Right Rear lbs. 645 618
Total Rear lbs. 1350 1278
TOTAL Weight 2729 2714
% over Front 0.505 0.53
% over Rear 0.495 0.47

*my conversion deleted AC, PS and ABS.

weighs only minutely more. the 13b he stated, was stock, with ps, ac, abs, and a nice heavy iron exhaust manifold with the heavy sequential turbos. remove the ac, abs, ps, swap in a better exhaust manifold and a better single turbo thats lighter.....you see where im going now. the weight distribution would go back and it would be lighter. the amount of money you spend in converting a rx-7 to ls1, from 13b, could easily make that 13b a 400-500hp daily driver.(both would probably kill the same amount of fuel too)

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: Truenofan
http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=505887


LS1 Rotary
Left Front lbs. 684 718
Right Front lbs. 695 718
Total Front lbs. 1379 1436

Left Rear lbs. 705 660
Right Rear lbs. 645 618
Total Rear lbs. 1350 1278
TOTAL Weight 2729 2714
% over Front 0.505 0.53
% over Rear 0.495 0.47

*my conversion deleted AC, PS and ABS.

weighs only minutely more. the 13b he stated, was stock, with ps, ac, abs, and a nice heavy iron exhaust manifold with the heavy sequential turbos. remove the ac, abs, ps, swap in a better exhaust manifold and a better single turbo thats lighter.....you see where im going now. the weight distribution would go back and it would be lighter. the amount of money you spend in converting a rx-7 to ls1, from 13b, could easily make that 13b a 400-500hp daily driver.(both would probably kill the same amount of fuel too)

So basically, the LS-1 weighs the same (which we said from the beginning) and actually improves the overall balance of the car (which directly contradicts your initial claim that it would only be good for the straight line).

Thank you for proving our point for us.

ZV

 

[alkemyst]

LS-1 in a FC does not change the weight distribution in any significantly measurable amount. This is stated time and time again on RX7 forums. In fact the LS1 is able to replace many sub 2-3 liter powerplants and give better balance to the vehicle.

The main problem is too many people are tire-kicking the LS1 idea. The swap is one of the more expensive ones for many cars.

Also a 13B being a reliable 400-500hp easily done daily driver is a freaking insane statement. Even 3 rotors have a hard time running that power level day in day out. The thing is a smaller engine is making all it's power usually at the peak whereas the LS1 will be making much much more power at lower rpms consistantly.

Another thing you are missing is no matter what lightening steps you are talking on the 13b, when all is said and done the basic engine/trans weighs more so the ultimate finished product weighs more.

This is an example of fanboyship taken too hard. LS1 in FC/FD at anything but the most budget builds would smoke even 3 rotor builds.

 

[imported_Truenofan]

and there you go jumping to conclusions again. i said, the R1 with the 13b has power steering, air conditioning, a heavy cast iron manifold and a nice heavy sequential turbo. that ls1, has none of this. so how can you say that the 13b is heavier when it has what you have in a normal car. if you REMOVED the power steering, the air conditioning, put in a better exhaust manifold out of stainless steel and a nice garrett gt turbo, guess what, you just dropped at least a good 75-100lbs minimum. therefor decreasing the front load, shifting the center of gravity to the rear, and its going to be even LIGHTER. and how did you get a ls1 lighter than a 13b thats absolutely stock?

edit: like i said, its good if you push the engine back pretty far, but if your going to spend that much money on swapping the engine, you could just as easily make that 13b a daily driver with a good amount of power.....just because you have 400rwhp at 20psi(i'm guessing here), doesnt mean your going to be making 20psi of boost 100% of the time. light throttle use and a low boost setting, and your running 10psi for normal street use. hell, i know someone that has a 380rwhp fd with a 13b-re that he uses as a daily driver. they CAN be if you dont go flooring it all the time.

 

[alkemyst]

I am just not sure you know what you are talking about. Take each engine in minimum usable form and there is no significant difference. You can strip both engines down like I said to equals and the LS1 will still be lighter. If you decided to run a LS1 in a stock RX7 vs a 13b with a RX7 and no a/c, fenders, hood and the like then yeah you can make a lighter car

I don't think there is any RX7 owner out there that understands both the LS1 and 13B or even 3 rotor that would say are better than the LS1 in overall performance. At a certain budget yes, it's easy to throw a few grand at any engine and double it's power at least with boost...but to say it's reliable is a case by case study. It's a moot point as many aren't in any serious market for that level of swap.

Like you said though those 13b's are hardly daily drivers...they are pampered commuters. A daily driver should be able to handle all the abuse a stock car will have. This is why I am only going to shoot for 300-350hp max on my KA24DE until I rebuild the lower end. I could go 400-500 right off the bat, but one day I will get bad gas or some other issue that causes me to fall out of tune a little bit and then I say goodbye to a ring landing.

 

[imported_Truenofan]

did you not look at the link i posted. a 13b shortblock(just the engine itself, no exhaust uim/lim or transmission), weighs 170lbs. and the ls1, had no power steering, no air conditioning. the 13b had power steering and had air conditioning with stock sequential turbos which are heavier than a single turbo, with the stock cast iron manifold which is heavy too, still weighed less than the ls1.

I'm also going for 300rwhp on my car for a track car. I'm in the same boat as you. i have no doubt that a ls1 would weigh less than a 20b. it probably does, but i have no experience in that so i'm not going to judge it. i was just talking to the guy that had a 380rwhp 13b-re, he had that engine for 3 years and it finally went pop because he ran too much boost and not racing fuel(DOH!), and I'm 90% sure he had fun with that care on more than one occasion in those three years. my car is going to be a regular track/auto cross car with a bit of spirited racing here and there. so its going to see regular abuse.

 

[alkemyst]

The point is the weight difference is not significant at all. You can come up with whatever numbers you want. Even more so regardless of weight difference the balance is significantly unchanged. Again one can say 1% is the end of the world, but in reality it's not especially when you consider the effect a full tank of gas vs empty has.

300hp for a track car is going to be pretty non-competitive. I am talking 250-350hp for a street car...

Having to run race gas also to me is not a daily driver. An LS1 can make 400hp to the wheels and not even break a sweat. The LS1 can handle 500HP pretty much yawning stock...build the lower end and you can have 1000HP.

It's an insane engine, but the cost of the ticket is high. There are a lot of people driving around in beaters that talk LS1/SR20/etc swaps all day and night...they never happen.

 

[imported_Truenofan]

The weight difference is not significant because he has more metal and more luxuries in that 13b than the ls1, the ls1 is stripped clean and its engine alone.

True, but the guy wasnt running race gas to just push out 400rwhp....he was running regular pump, he decided to push the boost up high without running race gas and popped an apex seal. now he has to rebuild and make improvements while he's at it. better than blowing a hole in the side of a block isnt it?

My 300rwhp car is going to be for track/auto cross use, going for the lowest possible spool rpm and im aiming for 3000-3500 at the highest with a 35R(average), large street port should get me to the 3000 range or lower. 300rwhp will get me into the mid/low(with a good launch lows) 13 second range...considering the 3rd gen rx-7 already pulls 14.2 or lower with 255hp at the flywheel(net in 10-14% drivetrain loss). thing im getting at is that everyone seems to not believe that a 13b is any good. that they can't be daily drivers with 300+ rwhp.

edit: and dont get me wrong either, the 13b/20b/26r are not the best engines in the world, there are plenty better, the ls1 for the weight, and ability to make large numbers, will easily outweigh the money you would spend on getting a 20b and swapping and tuning that in.

edit 2: can we please get back on subject now.

 

[imported_hscorpio]

Originally posted by: Truenofan
The weight difference is not significant because he has more metal and more luxuries in that 13b than the ls1, the ls1 is stripped clean and its engine alone.

True, but the guy wasnt running race gas to just push out 400rwhp....he was running regular pump, he decided to push the boost up high without running race gas and popped an apex seal. now he has to rebuild and make improvements while he's at it. better than blowing a hole in the side of a block isnt it?

My 300rwhp car is going to be for track/auto cross use, going for the lowest possible spool rpm and im aiming for 3000-3500 at the highest with a 35R(average), large street port should get me to the 3000 range or lower. 300rwhp will get me into the mid/low(with a good launch lows) 13 second range...considering the 3rd gen rx-7 already pulls 14.2 or lower with 255hp at the flywheel(net in 10-14% drivetrain loss). thing im getting at is that everyone seems to not believe that a 13b is any good. that they can't be daily drivers with 300+ rwhp.

I don't think anyone is claiming a 13b is not good, just that an LS1 is much better

Sure you can build up a potent 13b, but its not going to be as reliable as an LS1 and its not going to have the performance potential of the LS1. You'll have to push the 13b very hard just to hang with a stock LS1. Start modding the LS1 and that maxed out 13b starts looking anemic.

From your first post about the LS1 its apparent you were not aware of its performance and light weight that makes it a nice swap in good handling, light weight, yet underpowered cars. Then it looks like you googled around and must have seen you were mistaken, but instead of just acknowledging that you keep trying to defend the rotary, probably since you own one and are a huge fan of rotaries. Nothing wrong with that, rotary engines are pretty cool, but in the end you can't deny the LS1's performance advantage. Why not just acknowledge the obvious fact that an LS1 offers better performance but you would prefer a rotary because you like their uniqueness?

 

[imported_Truenofan]

ack, got me, yeah i didnt know 100% about the ls1.
It is good, i knew that much, for high power applications yeah its going to beat a 13b, and the more rare 20b. for the price a ls1 is a better option honestly.
alk seems to think a 13b cant handle 400-500rwhp for a daily driver for some reason, couldnt tell you why. believing that the LS1 is lighter than a 13b, which weighs 170lbs. you can lift the damn thing on your own.(i know i could)
I remember reading sport compact car i believe it was. A guy built a mr2, with two seperate fuel tanks, one with racing fuel, one with regular 93 rate. when he wanted to crank the boost he popped it for the racing gas. normal driving with low boost, 93 oct. so yes, you COULD have a 500rwhp(peak) car on the streets.
Back to the subject now. A miata with a 13b swap, would be pretty damn sweet too. Get the older first gens, swap in a n/a s5 6 port with 160hp stock(add in a nice exhaust and such and you might be in the 170's, port it and you've got more) would be pretty nice.
MR2....mmmm those are pretty fiesty too....the first gen doesnt have the understeer problems the second gen has, but the second gen does look damn good...first gen has the 4age or possibly the 4agez(supercharged) engine and can make some pretty good power. the MR2 Spyder that came out i think in 02ish is pretty cool looking too, plus you get the vert top.