Longtime trackball user needs mouse pro advice!

Geosurface

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2012
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Hi all, I just got a Logitech G700 Gaming Mouse after using Logitech trackballs since 1989.

Now don't get me wrong, of course I've used mice over the years too, at school or jobs or when using someone else's computer...

but I want to make sure I'm doing this right.

This thing has a lot of settings, DPI... transfers per second or something I think, um, of course naturally the normal pointer speed and acceleration also. I am not entirely sure where I should have all of these set.

I was experimenting with it yesterday and ended up, for now, with no acceleration (i've never liked that), and max DPI, with pretty high movement speed. (7/10) but I found myself maxing the movement speed in CS:GO and StarCraft 2.

I just would like some advice...

one thing i've always disliked about mice is having to pick the damn thing up and then set it back down. is a person supposed to be able to set it up in such a way that this isn't necessary?
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,562
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0
There isn't really a "correct" DPI setting, all comes down to personal preference.

And yeah, either up the DPI settings so you don't have to pick up the mouse or get some more space.
 

ixelion

Senior member
Feb 5, 2005
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Make sure you keep windows sens at default, 6/11 adjust DPI to set your sensitivity.

Generally DPI doesn't really matter, 400 dpi with in game sens of 50% will feels the same as DPI of 800 dpi with 25%.

The key really is to find the point of no interpolation in your game, this requires a lot of tweaking, adjusting the sens in game notch by notch until you have no interpolation - every game is different, some have really moronic sensitivity sliders.

Once you have you have your true raw sensitivity in game just set whatever DPI you want and your good to go.
 
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thespyder

Golden Member
Aug 31, 2006
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Gotta ask why you went back to a mouse?

For me, trackball is the only way to fly. I find I have a lot more fine control with a trackball than I ever would have with a mouse. And the whole "Pick the mouse up" thing doesn't make any sense to me either. Set it down and move the ball around.

anyway, just curious why the decision to change.
 

Dankk

Diamond Member
Jul 7, 2008
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Make sure you keep windows sens at default, 6/11 adjust DPI to set your sensitivity.

This is what I believe is the general rule. In Windows, set movement speed to 6/11. Always 6/11 (the sixth notch in the slider). This is supposedly the "natural" middle of the road setting where mouse movement is, generally speaking, 1:1 with cursor movement on-screen, where Windows isn't exaggerating/diluting input. So all you have left to adjust is your DPI.

If your mouse has a built-in DPI adjustment, then simply adjust that to your liking.

Acceleration is generally looked down upon by gamers because it breaks that organic 1:1 mouse movement, making the cursor travel different distances depending on how fast you move the mouse. This isn't necessarily always bad though. Acceleration can allow to you be fast while still being precise. I, for one, set my acceleration to "low" in the Logitech Setpoint settings with my Trackman Marble because it just feels better to me.

Again, it's really all just personal preference. It's probably just best to pick whatever feels comfortable to you. :)
 

Dankk

Diamond Member
Jul 7, 2008
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Gotta ask why you went back to a mouse?

For me, trackball is the only way to fly. I find I have a lot more fine control with a trackball than I ever would have with a mouse. And the whole "Pick the mouse up" thing doesn't make any sense to me either. Set it down and move the ball around.

anyway, just curious why the decision to change.

He didn't say it was a permanent change. Perhaps he's just trying something different.

It's funny, about a year ago I switched out my Trackball for a regular mouse I just purchased. I wanted to compare my gaming performance with both kinds of input methods. I did about just as well with the traditional mouse, but playing shooters for extended periods of time gave me cramps and RSI. I switched right on over to my trackball again after a couple weeks. Haven't looked back since.
 

thespyder

Golden Member
Aug 31, 2006
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He didn't say it was a permanent change. Perhaps he's just trying something different.

It's funny, about a year ago I switched out my Trackball for a regular mouse I just purchased. I wanted to compare my gaming performance with both kinds of input methods. I did about just as well with the traditional mouse, but playing shooters for extended periods of time gave me cramps and RSI. I switched right on over to my trackball again after a couple weeks. Haven't looked back since.

Yeah, that's another known perk to the Trackball. it cuts down significantly on tendon strain and almost eliminates the possibility of carpel tunnel syndrome. Plus, it increases manual dexterity... Something that the ladies love.
 

VulgarDisplay

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2009
6,188
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Using lower mouse sensitivity reduces tendon strain. People using claw grip and high sensitivity are going to be suffering the ill effects. I move my whole arm when I use my mouse.

I highly doubt anyone using a trackball can outplay me in a FPS. Highly doubt it.
 

M0oG0oGaiPan

Diamond Member
Dec 7, 2000
7,858
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digitalgamedeals.com
Just got to play around with your sens and see what works for you. f0rest who's probably one of the top cs players ever and a cs:go pro uses a 3/11 windows sens. I stick with 6/11 though.
 

thespyder

Golden Member
Aug 31, 2006
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Using lower mouse sensitivity reduces tendon strain. People using claw grip and high sensitivity are going to be suffering the ill effects. I move my whole arm when I use my mouse.

I highly doubt anyone using a trackball can outplay me in a FPS. Highly doubt it.

I equally highly doubt that there is any appreciable difference in responsiveness between the two devices for players familiar with each input device.
 

cmdrdredd

Lifer
Dec 12, 2001
27,052
357
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A lot of players use large mouse surfaces. I use an Xtrac hybrid mousepad. It's a plastic impregnated cloth surface measuring 15.75" x 10" so I never have to lift my mouse up. Normall I play with enhanced precision off, no mouse smoothing, vsync off (input lag is a no no for me), 800dpi, 500hz polling rate (some games had issues when I set to 1000hz polling rate). I use a Logitech G400
 

Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
16,829
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I would think a trackball user would prefer a fingertip mouse. You bought a mouse that requires you to hold it with your whole hand and move with your wrist.

Get a G9 and use the small grip.
 

lothar

Diamond Member
Jan 5, 2000
6,674
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I equally highly doubt that there is any appreciable difference in responsiveness between the two devices for players familiar with each input device.
Any top ranked Starcraft player admit to winning all(or most) their matches using a trackball? If so, then I'd love to hear who this person is.
What about Warcraft III, Call of Duty, and BattleField players?
 

Dankk

Diamond Member
Jul 7, 2008
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Any top ranked Starcraft player admit to winning all(or most) their matches using a trackball? If so, then I'd love to hear who this person is.
What about Warcraft III, Call of Duty, and BattleField players?

I don't follow competitive gaming, so I'm totally unaware of who the pros are, or what their preferred input method is. If anything, I suspect the reason why most gamers don't use trackballs is because they simply don't know about them and/or don't realize what their advantages are.

A good place to look would be in the product reviews of people who buy trackballs. You'll notice there's quite a few people who use them for gaming: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...scrollFullInfo
 

lothar

Diamond Member
Jan 5, 2000
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I don't follow competitive gaming, so I'm totally unaware of who the pros are, or what their preferred input method is. If anything, I suspect the reason why most gamers don't use trackballs is because they simply don't know about them and/or don't realize what their advantages are.

A good place to look would be in the product reviews of people who buy trackballs. You'll notice there's quite a few people who use them for gaming: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...scrollFullInfo
Let me twist this question around.
Find me people that know about a trackball and it's advantages.
Are these people winning on a competitive level in Starcraft, Warcraft III, BattleField, Call of Duty, or whatever hot multiplayer game people are playing nowadays that they themselves play?

I don't see how a person can play Starcraft or Warcraft with that thing.
What types of genres are trackballs good for? and what type are they bad for?
 

Dankk

Diamond Member
Jul 7, 2008
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Let me twist this question around.
Find me people that know about a trackball and it's advantages.
Are these people winning on a competitive level in Starcraft, Warcraft III, BattleField, Call of Duty, or whatever hot multiplayer game people are playing nowadays that they themselves play?

I don't see how a person can play Starcraft or Warcraft with that thing.
What types of genres are trackballs good for? and what type are they bad for?

What exactly do you mean, "find me people that know about a trackball and it's advantages"? You're in a thread full of them. I also linked you to a few more.

As far as competitive gaming goes: I have absolutely no clue. None. I'm not the right person to ask. Personally I'm not a competitive gamer... nor do I have a lot of skill. That said, I'm still pretty good; I've been in full 64-player games of BF3 where I sit at the top of the scoreboard (though that's rare). More often than that, I can usually at least maintain a K/D of 2:1. So I can confidently say that I'm decent.

You might respond "Well, then maybe trackballs aren't that great after all;" but that's a null argument because you could switch me back to a traditional mouse and not much would change. I've played a ton with both, so I'm pretty used to both. My skill mostly depends on me, and not my input method.

That said, there's still reasons why I prefer my trackball. Comfort and ease-of-use is one of them (no arm or wrist movements when gaming, no cramps). The best feature, however, is the infinite range of movement.

With a traditional mouse you're forced to pick up or "row" your hand. It doesn't matter how big your mouse pad is, or how high you have the sensitivity cranked up: You still have to row your mouse. Period. You're limited to the size of your desk. Your range of movement is restricted and finite. With a trackball, I am not bound by these restrictions.

I can move the mouse cursor infinitely in any direction using only the muscles in my fingers. At no point do I have to pause and lift up my mouse to "reset" it's position. Because of this there is fluid, uninterrupted movement. (As an aside, sometimes my teammates in TF2 laugh at me because I can make my character spin around in circles at a million miles per hour, so I look like a blur. :p Totally useless, but it's just me demonstrating how fast I can move my cursor).

But like I said: These differences could be negligible to those who've grown up using a traditional mouse (which is understandable; you've been using that kind of mouse for you entire life, so it's completely hard-wired into your brain). Most of my friends refuse to try trackballs because they'd essentially have to "re-learn" how to interact with their computer after years of doing it another way. And that's absolutely fine. Personal preference.

With all due respect to competitive/pro gamers, their reasons for not using trackballs are probably the same as I mentioned before:

1) General ignorance

2) No desire/Not enough good reason to switch (Competitive gamers are so trained and neck-deep in their own sport, are they gonna take a month off to learn a new input method? Probably not)

3) They're 100% comfortable with what they got, so they don't care in the first place. Which, again, is totally fine.

As far as what games trackballs are good for: All of them. There's nothing you can do with a traditional mouse that you can't do with a trackball. The only exception would be the Trackman Marble, which is the one I linked you to above. It doesn't have a scroll wheel, so in games like RTSs that make heavy use of one, you'd have to use the secondary buttons on that mouse to scroll, or use some other method. I have "scroll keys" on my Logitech G105 keyboard in case I need them, so that's what I use.

I think I'm in the minority though. Most trackball users seem to be using the M570 and it's variants. That one has a scrollwheel just like any other mouse.
 
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thespyder

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Aug 31, 2006
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Any top ranked Starcraft player admit to winning all(or most) their matches using a trackball? If so, then I'd love to hear who this person is.
What about Warcraft III, Call of Duty, and BattleField players?


cum hoc ergo propter hoc

This is a fallacy. Correlation does not imply causation. The presence or absence of top ranking gamers using a trackball is in no way proof that there is a difference in input sensitivity or reactiveness. One does not necessarily mean or have any impact on the other.
 
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cmdrdredd

Lifer
Dec 12, 2001
27,052
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I don't follow competitive gaming, so I'm totally unaware of who the pros are, or what their preferred input method is. If anything, I suspect the reason why most gamers don't use trackballs is because they simply don't know about them and/or don't realize what their advantages are.

A good place to look would be in the product reviews of people who buy trackballs. You'll notice there's quite a few people who use them for gaming: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...scrollFullInfo

It doesn't matter how big your mouse pad is, or how high you have the sensitivity cranked up: You still have to row your mouse. Period. You're limited to the size of your desk. Your range of movement is restricted and finite. With a trackball, I am not bound by these restrictions.

for fps games the mouse is superior for a few reasons. Mouse wheel to swap weapons. right click secondary fire or zoom is very intuitive, thumb buttons are super convenient for melee or reloads.

That's what I've found to be the general consensus with the people I play with.

As for the mouse pad thing yes it matters. If you lift up your mouse or have to move it in a non-linear way you are doing it wrong. Nobody who is worth mentioning who plays competitively will use a small pad and have to adjust. They make sure their setup and sensitivity are setup appropriately.

cum hoc ergo propter hoc

This is a fallacy. Correlation does not imply causation. The presence or absence of top ranking gamers using a trackball is in no way proof that there is a difference in input sensitivity or reactiveness. One does not necessarily mean or have any impact on the other.

Your fancy words don't make his statement untrue. The fact is, the best players use mice. There is a reason for this and I guraantee it's precision. You are more precise with your arm moving the mouse than your fingertips flicking a ball around. Long slow movements beat twitch for precision.

You can use what you want sure, but there are reasons people who are serious on the tourney level still use mice.
 
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Dankk

Diamond Member
Jul 7, 2008
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for fps games the mouse is superior for a few reasons. 1) mouse wheel to swap weapons. right click secondary fire nor zoom is very intuitive, thumb buttons are super convenient for melee or reloads.

Regarding your first point: Why in the world would you not use hotkeys for switching weapons? Using the scrollwheel to cycle through your weapons feels much slower by comparison (particularly in games where you have more than two weapons).

I can't tell what you're trying so say about secondary fire and zoom.

Your fancy words don't make his statement untrue.

You're not exactly helping your case either. When someone begins their retort with "Your fancy words," it discredits them just a little bit, no? thespyder's "fancy words" are completely correct. Correlation does not imply causation. Nothing fancy about that.

You're correct though: None of that makes lothar's statement untrue. "Correlation does not imply causation" is a neutral statement; it doesn't assert one way or the other, but only that two events that occur together do not have a cause-and-effect relationship.

However, you haven't posted any convincing argument that proves anything either. So... :confused:

It's a bit silly that we're even having this debate. No one's forcing you to use a trackball. I choose to use one because I find it more comfortable. Can we just live and let live? Or do you not like that my personal preference is different from yours? Does it bother you that I game with a trackball and do well with it?
 
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videogames101

Diamond Member
Aug 24, 2005
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If trackballs gave high-level competitive players an advantage they'd use them.

They don't use them.
 

AdamK47

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
15,653
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If you like trackballs you should check out the CST LaserTRAC 2545W. I love mine.
 

Dankk

Diamond Member
Jul 7, 2008
5,558
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91
If trackballs gave high-level competitive players an advantage they'd use them.

They don't use them.

If traditional mice gave me an advantage, I'd use one.

I don't use one.

Can we stop now? Multiple times I've acknowledged that half the reason I use trackballs is personal preference, and the technical advantages that do exist are negligible for most, or aren't worth the learning curve. If you're comfortable with what you're using, then by all means: Keep using it.

If you're so insecure about your mouse that you feel the need to insist on their superiority, then go ahead and keep poking me. Although I don't think I have anything of further value to add to this conversation.
 

thespyder

Golden Member
Aug 31, 2006
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Your fancy words don't make his statement untrue. The fact is, the best players use mice. There is a reason for this and I guraantee it's precision. You are more precise with your arm moving the mouse than your fingertips flicking a ball around. Long slow movements beat twitch for precision.

You can use what you want sure, but there are reasons people who are serious on the tourney level still use mice.

My fancy words are the definition of true. Just because something is correlated, doesn't prove that it is Causal.

You can't prove something based on a fallacy. Take a logic class some time.

Also, I never said that trackballs provided BETTER control. Merely that they aren't WORSE. So usage is preference. Not due to any inherent advantage (which is where you MIGHT draw in top level gamers).
 
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videogames101

Diamond Member
Aug 24, 2005
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If traditional mice gave me an advantage, I'd use one.

I don't use one.

Can we stop now? Multiple times I've acknowledged that half the reason I use trackballs is personal preference, and the technical advantages that do exist are negligible for most, or aren't worth the learning curve. If you're comfortable with what you're using, then by all means: Keep using it.

If you're so insecure about your mouse that you feel the need to insist on their superiority, then go ahead and keep poking me. Although I don't think I have anything of further value to add to this conversation.

What are you talking about? The point I was making was that the people who make money gaming, who's only motivation is winning, will clearly use the mouse which gives them an edge. If a trackball gave gamers an advantage, people who make money by winning would most certainly use it. That is to say, if your only goal is winning, you should probably not use a trackball.

That being said, most of us (including me and you) aren't getting paid to win, we play games to have fun, and you should use whatever mouse type you like! I'm not trying to convince you to switch, and I'm sorry if it came off like that. :'(
 

Dankk

Diamond Member
Jul 7, 2008
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What are you talking about? The point I was making was that the people who make money gaming, who's only motivation is winning, will clearly use the mouse which gives them an edge. If a trackball gave gamers an advantage, people who make money by winning would most certainly use it. That is to say, if your only goal is winning, you should probably not use a trackball.

That being said, most of us (including me and you) aren't getting paid to win, we play games to have fun, and you should use whatever mouse type you like! I'm not trying to convince you to switch, and I'm sorry if it came off like that. :'(

Alright, no offense taken. Sorry. :)