Long-time watercoolers: is there any point to watercooling anymore?

[fuzzybabybunny]

It just seems that nowadays air is just so much simpler than watercooling while affording MUCH of the same performance of watercooling.

Air can now be:

1. Silent
2. More affordable than water
3. Easier to work with (no tubes getting in the way and risks of leakage when fiddling with the loop)
4. Lighter, easier to carry the case
5. Is almost just as high performance in OC'ed systems as watercooling. Can attain very high overclocks.

So is there any point to watercooling anymore? I recently took my video card out of the loop and slapped on a Zalman HSF, which I'm very fond of. Now I'm contemplating doing the CPU and chipset.

 

[Bluefront]

I've never used water-cooling for the exact reasons you listed. CPUs are becoming easier to keep cool no matter what, so cooling by air is the only way to go. Heatsinks for CPUs are better than ever......WC is a dinosaur.

 

[Zepper]

WCing was a function of CPUs getting hotter and basically nerds at play with their toys. Now that the CPUs are getting cooler and don't need OCing to go plenty fast there really is no point. But there are still plenty that won't be dissuaded...

.bh.

 

[CP5670]

I don't have a water setup but I think it would more useful for video cards than CPUs. These days the CPU overclocks I see on water are typically only slightly higher than those on the top air coolers, but the differences are more pronounced with GPUs.

 

[Praxis1452]

gpu's are more worth it as they are easier to watercool. Larger die so the heat's spread out a bit more and it's already naked so no need to take off the IHS most times. Much more pronounced effect. say from 70C load to maybe only 40C.

 

[Minerva]

Quad core chips will definitely spark an interest in water cooling and even phase change cooling. That is if you want to run faster than stock speed.

 

[Rike]

Originally posted by: fuzzybabybunny
It just seems that nowadays air is just so much simpler than watercooling while affording MUCH of the same performance of watercooling.

Air can now be:

1. Silent
2. More affordable than water
3. Easier to work with (no tubes getting in the way and risks of leakage when fiddling with the loop)
4. Lighter, easier to carry the case
5. Is almost just as high performance in OC'ed systems as watercooling. Can attain very high overclocks.

So is there any point to watercooling anymore? I recently took my video card out of the loop and slapped on a Zalman HSF, which I'm very fond of. Now I'm contemplating doing the CPU and chipset.

You're right about 1-5, but I haven't been able to get your numbers 1 & 5 at the same time. You can have silent or high OC on air, but in my expereince, you can't get both. I'm moving to WCing for that very reason.

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

Originally posted by: Rike

Originally posted by: fuzzybabybunny
It just seems that nowadays air is just so much simpler than watercooling while affording MUCH of the same performance of watercooling.

Air can now be:

1. Silent
2. More affordable than water
3. Easier to work with (no tubes getting in the way and risks of leakage when fiddling with the loop)
4. Lighter, easier to carry the case
5. Is almost just as high performance in OC'ed systems as watercooling. Can attain very high overclocks.

So is there any point to watercooling anymore? I recently took my video card out of the loop and slapped on a Zalman HSF, which I'm very fond of. Now I'm contemplating doing the CPU and chipset.

You're right about 1-5, but I haven't been able to get your numbers 1 & 5 at the same time. You can have silent or high OC on air, but in my expereince, you can't get both. I'm moving to WCing for that very reason.

Even with HSFs like a Scythe Ninja?

 

[Check]

I thought that my Zalman HSF was big until I saw those Scythe Ninjas.
I've always used air, mainly because I'm cheap but it's getting to the point that I have spent around $100 upgrading my HSF over the years so it's almost worth it to invest in water and just forget about it forever.

edit:
for number 3+ 4:
Non conductive liquids make leaking only an annoyance and not really a danger.
The koolance cases aren't anymore awkward to carry than others that are the same size.

 

[Praxis1452]

Originally posted by: check
I thought that my Zalman HSF was big until I saw those Scythe Ninjas.
I've always used air, mainly because I'm cheap but it's getting to the point that I have spent around $100 upgrading my HSF over the years so it's almost worth it to invest in water and just forget about it forever.

edit:
for number 3+ 4:
Non conductive liquids make leaking only an annoyance and not really a danger.
The koolance cases aren't anymore awkward to carry than others that are the same size.

non conductive liquids aren't non conductive for long. The metal will slowly rub off of the blocks. Tiny amount but enough to make it easily conductive. btw distilled water isn't conductive at all. Pour it on if you like but it's when the metal ions start to appear in the water that it becomes conductive.

 

[Rike]

Originally posted by: fuzzybabybunny

Originally posted by: Rike

Originally posted by: fuzzybabybunny
It just seems that nowadays air is just so much simpler than watercooling while affording MUCH of the same performance of watercooling.

Air can now be:

1. Silent
2. More affordable than water
3. Easier to work with (no tubes getting in the way and risks of leakage when fiddling with the loop)
4. Lighter, easier to carry the case
5. Is almost just as high performance in OC'ed systems as watercooling. Can attain very high overclocks.

So is there any point to watercooling anymore? I recently took my video card out of the loop and slapped on a Zalman HSF, which I'm very fond of. Now I'm contemplating doing the CPU and chipset.

You're right about 1-5, but I haven't been able to get your numbers 1 & 5 at the same time. You can have silent or high OC on air, but in my experience, you can't get both. I'm moving to WCing for that very reason.

Even with HSFs like a Scythe Ninja?

Well, I have to admit, I haven't used a Ninja. It looks like a good candidate for you to try. I'm sure others can comment on how well it works and how quiet it is.

 

[TheRyuu]

You'll never get your temps as low as mine and it'll never be as quiet as mine.
Thats the benefit of watercooling.

It can be silent and can yield good temps.

I dare you to find a air cooler that can make my 8800GTS 37C idle and never break 50 under load (haven't seen it break 45C even).
And get the OC that I also have

Yes air is simpler, and cheaper, but often when you buy stuff for a watercooling loop, if you get quality stuff it'll last 3-5 years if not longer if you take care of it.
If you change sockets or video cards often times all you need is a new bracket to adapt it too it.

Waterblocks have almost an infinite life time if they don't corrode.
The only thing that would need to be replaced is the pump.

Edit:
And I always have peace of mind that anything in my loop will never overheat which takes temps completely out of the equation when I OC.

 

[Elfear]

Originally posted by: wizboy11
You'll never get your temps as low as mine and it'll never be as quiet as mine.
Thats the benefit of watercooling.

It can be silent and can yield good temps.

I dare you to find a air cooler that can make my 8800GTS 37C idle and never break 50 under load (haven't seen it break 45C even).
And get the OC that I also have

Yes air is simpler, and cheaper, but often when you buy stuff for a watercooling loop, if you get quality stuff it'll last 3-5 years if not longer if you take care of it.
If you change sockets or video cards often times all you need is a new bracket to adapt it too it.

Waterblocks have almost an infinite life time if they don't corrode.
The only thing that would need to be replaced is the pump.

Edit:
And I always have peace of mind that anything in my loop will never overheat which takes temps completely out of the equation when I OC.

QFT.

Air-cooling is getting better and better but it still has a ways to go to catch watercooling. Just look at the guys trying to oc their quadcores. Those things will punish air-cooling from what I've read over at XS.

 

[Blurry]

I can safely say that no air cooler can beat my custom dual fan radiator with a Swiftech waterblock, 1/2" tubing, and a peltier.

And I mean never

Sorry, but my inner geeky side just had to say something.

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

Originally posted by: wizboy11
It can be silent and can yield good temps.

How is your loop silent? And I mean really really silent? The loudest part of my loop are the two 120mm fans at 5V on my radiator. They are silent when taken off the radiator, but produce noise when they are put on the radiator because of the air turbulence of pulling air through the rad. The loudest thing I want to hear in my computer are the hard drives, not the fans.

The problem with watercooling the video card is cooling the RAM. Sure, you can basically cool your GPU to 40C and not have it budge even under overclocking, but the RAM doesn't have airflow anymore. Sure, you can buy a video block that includes the RAM, but those are $100+ and when the video card changes, you have to change the video block because the RAM no longer lines up.

What I used to do was just put heatsinks on the RAM, watercool the GPU, and have a case side fan blowing over the card. This is not the ideal situation because hotspots are created in the nooks and crannies that air from the side can't get to. Plus the tubing to the video card gets in the way when you're trying to take out the video card.

 

[Noubourne]

You should be able to get quiet-ER with water, but even if you go passive you'll still have pump noise. It should be much less noise than the myriad of fans required to cool a PC though.

The advantage to water is you can potentially replace CPU fan, vid card fan (often small and high RPM), NB fan (also often small and high RPM) with 1 or 2 120mm low-RPM and therefore VERY low noise fans. It won't be silent, but with the right components you can be close. Certainly much closer to normal ambient room noise than before. On top of that, you GAIN the ability to dump way more heat out of the system at a much faster rate. This means you can cool quietly and overclock much further than you could with air.

Take a look at the 3Ghz club for Athlon 64 dual-core chips at the DFI-Street site. Those who have passed stability testing over 3Ghz are all on water, with only 2 exceptions, and it's pretty safe to say those guys ripped off their IHS to get there. To say that there isn't still a benefit to using water over air for overclocking is just not true. Heatpipes and better heatsink design have certainly closed the gap, but you can safely increase voltage to a much higher level when overclocking on water and still get lower temps than on air, and that extra voltage and lower temps could easily mean a higher overclock. How MUCH higher and whether it is worth it is for you to decide.

I would say if you're not extreme overclocking and/or a stickler for noise that it probably isn't worth it anymore. Some of the benefits of water cooling have been negated by high quality heatsink design and the use of heatpipes, but the top end of cooling performance and noise reduction are still a pretty safe stomping ground for water cooling products.

 

[VooDooAddict]

Originally posted by: Noubourne
I would say if you're not extreme overclocking and/or a stickler for noise that it probably isn't worth it anymore. Some of the benefits of water cooling have been negated by high quality heatsink design and the use of heatpipes, but the top end of cooling performance and noise reduction are still a pretty safe stomping ground for water cooling products.

The general concept behind water cooling has been replicated with heatpipes. Move the heat away from the source buy use of a better medium then air. Then dissipate the heat to air over a large surface area away from the original source.

Overclocking with water or phase changing negates one of the primary benefits many are getting (or imagine they are getting) from overclocking.... Saving $$. For people looking to get bang for the $$ it's clear that in most cases watercooling is no longer the best option.

 

[TheRyuu]

Originally posted by: fuzzybabybunny

Originally posted by: wizboy11
It can be silent and can yield good temps.

How is your loop silent? And I mean really really silent? The loudest part of my loop are the two 120mm fans at 5V on my radiator. They are silent when taken off the radiator, but produce noise when they are put on the radiator because of the air turbulence of pulling air through the rad. The loudest thing I want to hear in my computer are the hard drives, not the fans.

The problem with watercooling the video card is cooling the RAM. Sure, you can basically cool your GPU to 40C and not have it budge even under overclocking, but the RAM doesn't have airflow anymore. Sure, you can buy a video block that includes the RAM, but those are $100+ and when the video card changes, you have to change the video block because the RAM no longer lines up.

What I used to do was just put heatsinks on the RAM, watercool the GPU, and have a case side fan blowing over the card. This is not the ideal situation because hotspots are created in the nooks and crannies that air from the side can't get to. Plus the tubing to the video card gets in the way when you're trying to take out the video card.

Well I wouldn't call it silent, but it's definitely silentER then with air, thats for dam sure. Plus the good temps. I have 2 Yate Loon fans at 12v and they hardly bother me. I would say that they're a little louder then the HD, and the HD really isn't loud at all.

Cooling the RAM on the video card is extreamily easy. What you do is you put on those little copper BGA ram sinks, then you take a quiet fan (say a Yate Loon @ low voltage) and that creates the air flow for you why being nearly inaudible.
I see what your talking about with the difficulties of putting a fan by it (I have 2 of them by the video card ) and I think that it's fine. These "hotspots"? Are you sure that it's no just you being paranoid?

I have 8 (yes eight) fans in my rig including my rad. I have 3 on the rad, one in the PSU, one intake, one outtake, and two blowing on the video card (I think thats everything). Overall, I think that my rig is quiet. Quieter then when I had air, for dam sure.

I find that watercooling is a great ALTERNATIVE to air. While this does not replace air, it gives people who want to take their "rig" one step further in terms of cooling ability and performance (as well as bring down noise).

Go post this thread over at XS and I'm sure they'll find reasons to have watercooling.

 

[arcas]

Kind of off-topic but the OP said he'd been doing water cooling for 8 years. In that time period, how many pump failures/disasters occurred? Do you run your rig 24/7? Do you worry about leaving it on if you leave town for a week? (In my case, my rig also collects data/performs nightly stock analyses so it needs to stay up).

 

[Yreka]

I see a need more today for Watercooling than ever. I used to watercool several years ago, and ended up going away from it for many of the same reasons listed in the OP. The delta between water and air was really small, the components just didnt generate enough heat.

Air began getting a little "warm" for my tastes back when I got my first dual core (opteron170), and X1900XT. I wouldn't say heat was limiting me in any way, but things were definitely warmer than I would have liked.

Now, forget about it. I use a Scythe Ninja (Old version w. a Yate strapped onto it) on my bench (read open air no case), and it runs considerably warmer than my loop installed in the case. Not to mention the video cards.

As for limiting overclocks, I dont pay too much attention there, but I will say this. I can easily run 1.55-1.6V on my water loop while I have to drop at least .1-.15 V to do the same on the bench. On my chip, that is somewhere in the range of 3-500mhz.

Just like everything else, its a big YMMV. Im not even sure what system you are running. If you have say a single core S939, and a 7600GT, then watercooling is probibly overkill. If you are running a Pentium D, or any dual or quad core, latest gen VGA, and want to start adding volts, the "worth it" factor starts going up.

Furthermore, I could probibly run my system at the same speeds on all air and get by. I wouldnt be happy with the temps, or the noise but its really a personal preference. In short, really the only one who can answer the question is you.

I can offer one bit of advice though. If possible, hold on to your WC gear in case you ever decide to go back to it within a reasonable amount of time. I sold all my stuff off, I could have used alot of it the second time around.

 

[PChang11]

Water cooling IMO is noisier than air if you want to go quiet in some cases. If you were just cooling the CPU for example, you would need a fan AND a pump whereas a HSF would have just 1 fan. However, if you cool everything including CPU, GPU(s), and Chipsets with water cooling, you can get away with less fans since 1 or 2 fans can provide enough cooling to cool all 3 heat sources. Temps will probably be high, but it'll be fairly quiet.

 

[thilanliyan]

I had my overclocked X1800XL at 675/600 and to keep it cool enough I needed watercooling. However, it was a bitch if you had to do some work inside the case. I tried watercooling my current CPU for a bit but was getting the same temps as with my Big Typhoon (probably due to the crappy kit I got) and the block actually cracked (thank goodness I caught it before it started leaking). I decided to go back to aircooling with my current comp and I'm fairly satisfied with it. I just don't think the hassles are worth it unless you want to squeeze EVERY LAST ounce of performance from your comp.

I don't think I'll go back to watercooling anytime soon.

 

[MoonglumWoW]

Originally posted by: arcas
Kind of off-topic but the OP said he'd been doing water cooling for 8 years. In that time period, how many pump failures/disasters occurred? Do you run your rig 24/7? Do you worry about leaving it on if you leave town for a week? (In my case, my rig also collects data/performs nightly stock analyses so it needs to stay up).

I am not the OP but I have been using watercooling for 5 years. In that time I have never had a pump failure. All my systems use Koolance which all have a dual pump. So if a pump were to fail, it wouldn't be a disaster. I did start out with 2 early Koolance PC2-C cases that both leaked. One just caused a wet carpet, but the other shorted the AGP socket and the video card. Koolance replaced them both as they had manufacturing issues with leaky radiators and bad coolant. But they were quick to revise their designs and are now very easy and safe to use.

I have a dual Athlon MP 2600+ server that runs 24/7 at 100% load doing video rendering and conversions. It is in a PC2-C case and has been running continuously for years except for the 3 times I drained the coolant to replace it with Koolance's latest formulation. I will have to turn it off soon to replace a failed hard drive in the RAID array. I have a second similar server in a PC2-650 case doing the same thing for maybe 2 years. Both of these have CPU coolers and Hard Drive coolers.

My kids have 2 desktops, Athlon XP 2500+ and 3000+, running in PC2-C cases they have been running for years, but not 24/7. They sit next to each other and have been kicked over countless times with no adverse affects besides unseating a video card. These only have CPU coolers.

My main workstation is a dual Opteron 250, 2 74GB Raptor hard drives, and 2 GeForce 7900GTX in SLI. The CPUs, GPUs, and Raptor hard drives are all watercooled by a Koolance ExOS-AL. It is on practically 24/7 for almost 2 years (whenever the 250's first came out).

You should be aware that almost all water systems have a safety cut off for pump failures and overheating due to leaks. Most also have automated fan speeds for additional cooling under peak load, or near silence under light loads.

I do, however, still use air cooling. My main desktop specs:
Intel E6600 @ 2.4GHz (stock)
Scythe Ninja 92mm HSF
Asus P5N32-SLI motherboard
OCZ PC2-6400 2GB (2 x 1GB) 4-4-4-15 Memory
PC Power & Cooling 1k Turbowatt Power Supply
XFX GeForce 8800GTX x 2 in SLI Video
Soundblaster X-FI Elite Pro
WD 74GB Raptor x 2 in RAID0
Dell 2405FPW 24" LCD
Logitech G15 Keyboard, G5 Mouse
Antec 900 Case

runs on air for now. This is only because there are no waterblocks available for the new 8800GTX series cards. This system is very quiet and keeps things cool at stock speeds. My wife's desktop specs:
Intel E6400 @ 2.13GHz (stock)
Zalman 120mm CU-AL HSF
Asus P5N32-SLI motherboard
OCZ PC2-6400 2GB (2 x 1GB) 4-4-4-15 Memory
ICIS 550W EPS Power Supply
XFX GeForce 7900GTX x 2 in SLI Video
Soundblaster Audigy2 Gamer
Seagate 320GB SATA2 HDD
Dell 2007FPW 20" LCD
Logitech G15 Keyboard, G7 Mouse
Antec SLK3800 Case

is a super quiet case and lets her rest her feet on top of the case. My son's specs:
Athlon 64 3800+
Vantec Aero7 Lite HSF
ECS KN1-Lite motherboard
OCZ PC3200 2GB (2 x 1GB) memory
Antec 480 TrueBlue Power Supply
BFG 7600GS Video
Antec Super Lanboy Case

is dead quiet, but bright, and again allows the feet on the case.

Some may say watercooling is expensive, but until the 8800 cards came out, I have used my same waterblocks from 1 system to the next. How many HSF do you know could move from the old Athlon XPs to the PentiumD presler/prescott/whatever to the Conroe processors and still maintain their effectiveness? I buy a $6 bracket when a new slot type comes out as I have rebuilt my main desktop many times. My initial case cost $90 and the block was $60, but went through 4 ever-increasing processor/motherboard rebuilds using the same parts. New waterblocks are available but the older ones still handle 300w with no problems.

In short, get what best fits your wants and needs.

 

[JEDIYoda]

I think water has its pirpose but I would think that cooling the Video card would be where water excells over air.

Also with the new quad cores I seriously doubt there will be any need to additional cooling over possibly a highend heatsink such as the Zalman 9700 or the Scythe Ninja, Mine.....Ultra120...Tuniq...etc......

Good Luck!!

 

[JEDIYoda]

Originally posted by: wizboy11
You'll never get your temps as low as mine and it'll never be as quiet as mine.
Thats the benefit of watercooling.

It can be silent and can yield good temps.

I dare you to find a air cooler that can make my 8800GTS 37C idle and never break 50 under load (haven't seen it break 45C even).
And get the OC that I also have

Yes air is simpler, and cheaper, but often when you buy stuff for a watercooling loop, if you get quality stuff it'll last 3-5 years if not longer if you take care of it.
If you change sockets or video cards often times all you need is a new bracket to adapt it too it.

Waterblocks have almost an infinite life time if they don't corrode.
The only thing that would need to be replaced is the pump.

Edit:
And I always have peace of mind that anything in my loop will never overheat which takes temps completely out of the equation when I OC.

I totally agtree on the vid card temp issue..water is the way to go.
But I would seriously be close your temps over clocked as well as trounce the speed which you over clocked your CPU...heheee

My intel 3.2EE has been overclocked as high as 4.8 -- but stable for months on end ast 4.4......I am currently running it at 4.2. My temps being very respectable in that regard....of course my fan set up is optimized and I have additional cooling inside the case to move air over the dead spot which seems to be where the memory is located..lol
I have had those temps using the Zalman 9500 and also using the ThermalRight XP120.

Being a collector of heatsink...I have not tried the Zalman 9700 or the tuniq Tower on that set up yet. But I have used them on the Core Duo and I will use one word...impressive!!

But yeah water in and opf itself is sweet!! Especially to cool a vid card!!