lol this can't be safe

[CZroe]

A couple hours from now, but I've got to get ready for another job and I'll have to find time to squeeze it in.

 

[Squisher]

OP, wiring in a circuit by bypassing a breaker would be very hard to do. There just wouldn't be anything to clamp the wire to. Are you sure there isn't a sub-panel somewhere around the house?

 

[JEDI]

Originally posted by: RedSquirrel
So I shut off all my breakers one at a time (just wanted one to be up so I can have light to work on an unrelated circuit) and realize I shut them all off including the lights I wanted on, and the circuit I was going to work on was STILL live. So I shut the main breaker then it's not live anymore, confirming it was not just a false reading on my tool. I had just left my tool near the wire so I was listening for when it would stop beeping instead of running back and forth after trying a breaker.

So, looks like someone decided to just not bother using a breaker and wired something directly to the incoming 100 amp service. That happens to be in the kitchen. I will have a VERY nice light show if I accidentally short something out.

Anyone ever see a setup like this before? All my breakers are full too so I will need to free some up to fix this. Can probably get rid of a few basement circuits.

Also should the washer be on it's own circuit? It seems like a waste to take up a breaker for one outlet that is used maybe twice a week. But maybe it's code as it's a big appliance?

One of my future investments is to upgrade to a higher amp service. Only got 100 now.

i think u need a licened electrician for an upgrade. the electric company wont pull bigger feeders unless u have the permit. u cant get a permit from the county yourself.

 

[CZroe]

Originally posted by: Sea Moose

Originally posted by: CZroe
I guess I can get that when I get home, but the old equipment is already gone (hauled off by the landlords).

im not worried about the old stuff, i am hopeing that there is somthing we can do to get thee new stuff started, how long till you get home?

OK, well, the label is only partially visible. Perhaps I can pull the unit out of the wall with a little help later, but for now all I have is a partial model number. ("LWH"). I typed "LG LWH" into Google and checked each of the auto-complete suggestions and switched the results to Google Image Search. The only one that looks like it is the LG LWHD1200fr (none of the others are even close), so I think that's it. I don't have the specs yet and I've run out of time to find out for the moment.

 

[Rubycon]

Originally posted by: CZroe
This seems like the best place to ask...

Nameplate specs are important! Particularly FLA/RLA and compressor LRA. These multiple letter acronyms or MLA stand for the following:

FLA - Full Load Amperes or the current draw from the power socket in Amperes.
RLA - Running Load Amperes or current draw from the power socket in Amperes when the unit is running under typical conditions. (i.e. not extremely high suction pressure or head pressures typically when the unit is first started in a HOT room with the sun shining on the condenser coil.)
LRA - Locked Rotor Amperes. This happens whenever the unit is first started. It's the brief (but very heavy) current draw the compressor motor pulls. It will blow a non time delay fuse and can nuisance trip a warm circuit breaker or one that is weak. The compressor will also draw LRA for longer if the unit is running on a long circuit, extension cord or if the distribution transformer is under heavy load. This typically happens when your neighbors are running their AC too or the power company supply drops. (brown out conditions)

With some AC units without a time delay circuit (compressor guard or sentinel) the compressor rotor may fail turn due to insufficient torque due to high pressure if the unit was just running. Typical equalization times are a few minutes. Older PSC piston hermetic compressors are very prone to this type of operation if short cycled or the power briefly fails. They do have overcurrent protection in the form of a snap metal disk that breaks the circuit. These are commonly known as the "Klixon" in the trade. They usually act in a few seconds, usually under five seconds. Of course the unit will draw LRA during this time which can be many times what your branch circuit is rated for say a 12,000 btu/hr unit. (1T). A healthy 15A CB should not trip during this time as long as nothing else is on the line. As always your mileage will vary.

 

[Sea Moose]

Originally posted by: Rubycon

Originally posted by: CZroe
This seems like the best place to ask...

Nameplate specs are important! Particularly FLA/RLA and compressor LRA. These multiple letter acronyms or MLA stand for the following:

FLA - Full Load Amperes or the current draw from the power socket in Amperes.
RLA - Running Load Amperes or current draw from the power socket in Amperes when the unit is running under typical conditions. (i.e. not extremely high suction pressure or head pressures typically when the unit is first started in a HOT room with the sun shining on the condenser coil.)
LRA - Locked Rotor Amperes. This happens whenever the unit is first started. It's the brief (but very heavy) current draw the compressor motor pulls. It will blow a non time delay fuse and can nuisance trip a warm circuit breaker or one that is weak. The compressor will also draw LRA for longer if the unit is running on a long circuit, extension cord or if the distribution transformer is under heavy load. This typically happens when your neighbors are running their AC too or the power company supply drops. (brown out conditions)

With some AC units without a time delay circuit (compressor guard or sentinel) the compressor rotor may fail turn due to insufficient torque due to high pressure if the unit was just running. Typical equalization times are a few minutes. Older PSC piston hermetic compressors are very prone to this type of operation if short cycled or the power briefly fails. They do have overcurrent protection in the form of a snap metal disk that breaks the circuit. These are commonly known as the "Klixon" in the trade. They usually act in a few seconds, usually under five seconds. Of course the unit will draw LRA during this time which can be many times what your branch circuit is rated for say a 12,000 btu/hr unit. (1T). A healthy 15A CB should not trip during this time as long as nothing else is on the line. As always your mileage will vary.

very good information, but the unit is not even starting up at this stage, so things i would look at is power supply and check the unit electrically (insulation resistance, earth continuity) then check the controls are right

czroe, provide pic plus info that rubicon asked for.

to safelty test the power supply, plug in a lamp and see if it gives off light. Once it has passed that test, make sure the controls are correctly set up. cooling in the lowest setting. try this and tell use the result plus provide pics. Pm me when you have done this and i will check this thread

 

[Rubycon]

Originally posted by: Sea Moose

very good information, but the unit is not even starting up at this stage, so things i would look at is power supply and check the unit electrically (insulation resistance, earth continuity) then check the controls are right

czroe, provide pic plus info that rubicon point out.

Tripping the breaker a few minutes later ? not running at all! Indeed if a unit is started and does nothing and the breaker trips a few min later the problem is definitely beyond what's being discussed here.

 

[Sea Moose]

Originally posted by: Rubycon

Originally posted by: Sea Moose

very good information, but the unit is not even starting up at this stage, so things i would look at is power supply and check the unit electrically (insulation resistance, earth continuity) then check the controls are right

czroe, provide pic plus info that rubicon point out.

Tripping the breaker a few minutes later ? not running at all! Indeed if a unit is started and does nothing and the breaker trips a few min later the problem is definitely beyond what's being discussed here.

well, then the czroe needs to get hvac mechanic in. as far as i was aware the unit is brand new? If power circuit is undersized than the new unit may be tripping the cb.

(ie if the new unit is 15amp, and the old unit was 10amp, the wiring plus breaker is undersized for the new unit, which would explain why a brand new unit trips on startup.)

 

[Rubycon]

Originally posted by: Sea Moose


well, then the czroe needs to get hvac mechanic in...

That's 97% of the case beyond normal maintenance tasks the owners can do like changing filters and cleaning coils.

While pulling covers and pressing contactor armatures down by hand sounds fun it can be quite dangerous too! :laugh:

 

[Sea Moose]

Originally posted by: Rubycon

Originally posted by: Sea Moose


well, then the czroe needs to get hvac mechanic in...

That's 97% of the case beyond normal maintenance tasks the owners can do like changing filters and cleaning coils.

While pulling covers and pressing contactor armatures down by hand sounds fun it can be quite dangerous too! :laugh:

yeah, i know i do it for a living :thumbsup:

 

[Red Squirrel]

Originally posted by: Squisher
OP, wiring in a circuit by bypassing a breaker would be very hard to do. There just wouldn't be anything to clamp the wire to. Are you sure there isn't a sub-panel somewhere around the house?

I was wondering how they'd do that too. I had an electrician look at the panel (not for this, he was just showing me a few things and how they connect etc) and I'm sure he would of noticed. There are no sub panels in this house and even if there was I would have shut it off by shutting all the breakers. The mains power from the meter goes to this panel (meter is outside just above the panel).

I'll need to take a closer look at it and see, and yes I do need to upgrade my service. This is something that needs to be done by a licensed electrician and costs about 2-3k so I don't have the money now, but eventually I want to do it. I'll go to 300amp or more, whatever is available at that time. More is better then less.

I don't even know where I will put my dishwasher, I think I may need to wire it on the same circuit as the clothes washer, for now. Just need to avoid doing laundry and dishes at the same time. This is probably against code but I'll just make note to change it asap. Can probably just put a plug on the end of the wire and plug it with the washer.

Oh and here there is no multiphase power for normal residential installations. From my understanding 3 wires come out of the transformer, both ends equaling to 240v and the middle with another, equaling to 120. Middle is neutral and the two others are hot. (I think) then it goes to the panel as 3 wires.

 

[Eli]

A washing machine is not a high load device.

Last time I threw a Kill-A-Watt on one, it drew like 110W.

 

[Red Squirrel]

Originally posted by: Eli
A washing machine is not a high load device.

Last time I threw a Kill-A-Watt on one, it drew like 110W.

Yeah I would imagine as all it is is a pump and motor, really. Not even sure if code requires it to be on a separate circuit. I'll have to find out and if not, I can probably free up that circuit for the dishwasher and put the washer on the same circuit as the lighting.

 

[runzwithsizorz]

OP, You can get a dual breaker that will fit in the single slot. My generators switch box only had 12 slots, but by using the dual breakers, I was able to power 24 of my 33 circuits.
http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn...Breaker&N=0+4294948823

 

[Squisher]

Originally posted by: RedSquirrel
...I'll need to take a closer look at it and see, and yes I do need to upgrade my service. This is something that needs to be done by a licensed electrician and costs about 2-3k so I don't have the money now...

That price seems a bit high. I upgraded from a 60A service to a 100A service about 15 years ago and it was $400. Aside from the price of the equipment you're getting installed a good electrician should be able to do it in 6-8 hours.

300A seems like overkill unless you have a lot of 220v toys.

 

[Rubycon]

Originally posted by: Eli
A washing machine is not a high load device.

Last time I threw a Kill-A-Watt on one, it drew like 110W.

Kill-A-Watt ? load analyzer!

Old washing machines used induction motors for the drum that pulled considerable amps on starting and when the spin cycle was initiated a lot of slip occurred which equated to a high amps condition for perhaps 5-10 seconds. If not on a dedicated line nuisance tripping and/or blowing of fuses would occur.

Today's high tech front loaders are often PWM driven DC motors and have fairly complicated drivers resulting in higher torque and more efficient use of power resulting in less strain. Advanced features such as sanitize and steam, however, will pull more power as resistance heating is used when these cycles are selected. So a washer even today can be considered a complex or difficult load.

 

[Red Squirrel]

Originally posted by: runzwithsizorz
OP, You can get a dual breaker that will fit in the single slot. My generators switch box only had 12 slots, but by using the dual breakers, I was able to power 24 of my 33 circuits.
http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn...Breaker&N=0+4294948823

I still can't add everything up to above 100amp though. I mean I could, and probably would get away with it, but probably not to code to do that (or does it not matter?). Though, do they make 10 amp breakers? I don't really NEED 15 amps in a bedroom or crawlspace (lights). I could try to cut where I don't need. I noticed lot of circuits are even 20 amp, probably can bring those down to 15 depending what they are for. The wires are probably not even rated for 20 anyway, given the age.

 

[skyking]

My bro had that exact problem the other day. He killed every single leg circuit and still did not shut off his garage wiring. I was not there or I would have traced out the root of the problem, but we suspect it is wired into one leg of one of the 220V breakers he did not turn off. Bastards.

 

[CZroe]

Originally posted by: Rubycon

Originally posted by: CZroe
This seems like the best place to ask...

Nameplate specs are important! Particularly FLA/RLA and compressor LRA. These multiple letter acronyms or MLA stand for the following:

FLA - Full Load Amperes or the current draw from the power socket in Amperes.
RLA - Running Load Amperes or current draw from the power socket in Amperes when the unit is running under typical conditions. (i.e. not extremely high suction pressure or head pressures typically when the unit is first started in a HOT room with the sun shining on the condenser coil.)
LRA - Locked Rotor Amperes. This happens whenever the unit is first started. It's the brief (but very heavy) current draw the compressor motor pulls. It will blow a non time delay fuse and can nuisance trip a warm circuit breaker or one that is weak. The compressor will also draw LRA for longer if the unit is running on a long circuit, extension cord or if the distribution transformer is under heavy load. This typically happens when your neighbors are running their AC too or the power company supply drops. (brown out conditions)

With some AC units without a time delay circuit (compressor guard or sentinel) the compressor rotor may fail turn due to insufficient torque due to high pressure if the unit was just running. Typical equalization times are a few minutes. Older PSC piston hermetic compressors are very prone to this type of operation if short cycled or the power briefly fails. They do have overcurrent protection in the form of a snap metal disk that breaks the circuit. These are commonly known as the "Klixon" in the trade. They usually act in a few seconds, usually under five seconds. Of course the unit will draw LRA during this time which can be many times what your branch circuit is rated for say a 12,000 btu/hr unit. (1T). A healthy 15A CB should not trip during this time as long as nothing else is on the line. As always your mileage will vary.

OK, well, I have the "Manual for Installation", which doesn't give me all that. Actually, the link on the product page links to the same thing as the Owner's Manual.

Anyway, it says to have a 15A breaker ands that's what it is. There are two 15A breakers with their switch-handles connected together by a little piece. The one that seems to trip is the one on top. Looking at the diagram in the manual, it appears that they replaced a 250v 20A outlet with a standard 125v 15A outlet except that the actual part they used is the typical dual-outlet. The manual says the outlet should be dedicated to it so it's strange that they would install one that allows you to plug in another device. Could this be the root of the problem, even if we didn't install another device?

 

[Rubycon]

Originally posted by: CZroe

OK, well, I have the "Manual for Installation", which doesn't give me all that. Actually, the link on the product page links to the same thing as the Owner's Manual.

Anyway, it says to have a 15A breaker ands that's what it is. There are two 15A breakers with their switch-handles connected together by a little piece. The one that seems to trip is the one on top. Looking at the diagram in the manual, it appears that they replaced a 250v 20A outlet with a standard 125v 15A outlet except that the actual part they used is the typical dual-outlet. The manual says the outlet should be dedicated to it so it's strange that they would install one that allows you to plug in another device. Could this be the root of the problem, even if we didn't install another device?

A two position breaker should only have its handles physically strapped together IF both poles are used, i.e. 240VAC circuit. A dedicated circuit simply means your feed goes from the circuit breaker to a load and nothing else is connected to this feed. The load can be hardwired (like a range) or a quad box with a pair of duplex receptacles. The idea is nothing else is connected than the intended load.

Sounds like they used existing three wire (L1/L2/N) 240V and just connected the neutral and L1 or L2 for 120VAC. The wire or strap connecting the levers should be removed, however. If the ACU is indeed serviced by a single 15A line that CB should not trip. Either it's bad or your ACU has a problem. Any competent electrician can figure this out for you.

 

[Gibson486]

Originally posted by: PM650

Originally posted by: Sea Moose

Originally posted by: PM650
3-phase?? don't you mean 2-phase/split phase?

to OP: just use those double breakers when necessary. [L=double breaker]http://www.thewoodnerd.com/images/articles/circuitSizing/double_breaker.jpg[/L]<---OP do not use these "double breakers" they arent suitable for domestic installations, they are for commercial boards, you need to book a licenced electrician to sort your power isssues

i mean 3 phase.

You have single phase or you have three phase, as far as i am aware there is no 2phasee. igas help me out here.

Running anything not designed for 3-phase off of it may create a load imbalance for whatever the source is. Split phase, sometimes called 2-phase is typical in north american homes, its basically 220V with the neutral in between, creating 110V for two lines of breakers - this also allows 220V loads such as an electric dryer.

also why are double breakers not suitable for domestic? this makes no sense to me

they are suitable....it's just not common to have a 2 phase breaker with a different branch on each pahse. It could be done, it may actually violate code in some areas, but I have seen people do it.

Essenitally, lots come in as 3 wire 2 phase...it's the same concept as 4 wires 3 phase. As a result, you can take the legs you need to create your 120 or 240. I am not really sure what the enterance voltage is, though. I think it comes in at 240, but I am not sure. I usually deal with industrial 3 phase power that is 3 wire, so I need transformers to down the voltage.

 

[ViviTheMage]

I don't play with that kind of power! Too risky.

 

[Red Squirrel]

Originally posted by: ViviTheMage
I don't play with that kind of power! Too risky.

Life is all about taking risks.

Today I was messing around with a live circuit trying to trace some mysterious wire. To add more confusion to the mix I had some phantom voltage. Managed to figure it out though without getting zapped.

120v directly wont always kill you (but it can) it's just a very big surprise. 240, I rather not find out.

 

[Jeff7]

Originally posted by: RedSquirrel

Originally posted by: ViviTheMage
I don't play with that kind of power! Too risky.

Life is all about taking risks.

Today I was messing around with a live circuit trying to trace some mysterious wire. To add more confusion to the mix I had some phantom voltage. Managed to figure it out though without getting zapped.

120v directly wont always kill you (but it can) it's just a very big surprise. 240, I rather not find out.

That's why people have children....

...and use the nickname "Sparky" when referring to said children, at least for awhile. Eventually, "Toasty" becomes the new nickname.

 

[Red Squirrel]

Originally posted by: Jeff7

Originally posted by: RedSquirrel

Originally posted by: ViviTheMage
I don't play with that kind of power! Too risky.

Life is all about taking risks.

Today I was messing around with a live circuit trying to trace some mysterious wire. To add more confusion to the mix I had some phantom voltage. Managed to figure it out though without getting zapped.

120v directly wont always kill you (but it can) it's just a very big surprise. 240, I rather not find out.

That's why people have children....

...and use the nickname "Sparky" when referring to said children, at least for awhile. Eventually, "Toasty" becomes the new nickname.

Haha pretty much. "Here's a box of paperclips to play with, be nice, I'll be back in half an hour!"