Actually, the simplest explanation of religion is that people are inherently lazy. When they come across something that they can't explain, they attribute it to some higher being, performing the miraculous. Only until they can understand what they are seeing, and harness its power as their own, do they realize that it is not some higher being after all, for if they can control it, it must not be of deistic proportions.
Religion is filler until we can understand what is going on. And yes, we do understand it, for we can harness its power and use it to our own devices. Don't listen to garbage Moonbeam sometimes spits out about us knowing nothing, for if we knew nothing then how could we converse over thousands of miles like this? Obviously we know *something* or this would not be possible.
Moonbeam can say some interesting things, sometimes I agree with him and sometimes not, and sometimes he comes across as completely incomprehensible. Not a compliment for his part, those who can't make themselves understood are less likely those who have anything really worthwhile to say.
Religion is filler until we can understand what is going on. And yes, we do understand it, for we can harness its power and use it to our own devices. Don't listen to garbage Moonbeam sometimes spits out about us knowing nothing, for if we knew nothing then how could we converse over thousands of miles like this? Obviously we know *something* or this would not be possible.
Moonbeam can say some interesting things, sometimes I agree with him and sometimes not, and sometimes he comes across as completely incomprehensible. Not a compliment for his part, those who can't make themselves understood are less likely those who have anything really worthwhile to say.
Ryan
Lifer
- Oct 31, 2000
- 27,519
- 2
- 81
Here's my interpretation: Anything, and everything we know, is only known to serve one purpose - the purpose of ourselves. The world is vast - so vast that the culmination of every ego-centric piece of knowledge we do know still pales in comparison to the vastness of the unknown in our daily lives, and for all time. Any attempt to know truth, to contain truth, will never succeed.
Give up on finding truth. Stop sitting idle, while you worry about what life is like when you die. Life is the present - that is the only truth I think we will every grasp or understand.
Ryan
Lifer
- Oct 31, 2000
- 27,519
- 2
- 81
Isn't that what we all do? The 10 commandments don't have any inherent value - only the value that people give to it. Your CHOICE is what gives them value to yourself, so by taking any moral code and saying it is your own, you have indeed based your morals on a system that you have decided to accept.
You are correct, up to a point. That being that the Ten Commandments don't have any inherent value. But that aside, people do tend to obtain their morals by an external system. The problem with this is that the morals of a system change...using yourself as an example, does that mean that your morals is merely a matter of whatever is considered legal at the time?
A: Actually, the simplest explanation of religion is that people are inherently lazy.
M: Actually, again what you do here is project your own laziness on others. This is exactly the same sort of lazy explanation for God that all other sleepers give. God is a power hiding in lightning or God doesn't exist because lightning is just a vast movement of electrons from a place of excess to a place of relatively greater scarcity. You and the nominally religious are talking about gods that don't exist. You both completely miss the fact of God as manifest by those who brought His love to man. You forget you know nothing so you have to invent explanations then turn around and complain that other invented explanations aren't any good. The last thing the blind notice is how blind they are, no?
A: When they come across something that they can't explain, they attribute it to some higher being, performing the miraculous.
M: Or pretend that because one explanation is wrong that all are as I just said.
A: Only until they can understand what they are seeing, and harness its power as their own, do they realize that it is not some higher being after all, for if they can control it, it must not be of deistic proportions.
M: Or deny that it exists so they don't have to deal with their lack of control and maintain the dominance of their own ego.
A: Religion is filler until we can understand what is going on.
M: Going to be a long time coming, no?
A: And yes, we do understand it, for we can harness its power and use it to our own devices.
M: AH, you are the CEO of God Powered Gas Co. I guess.
A: Don't listen to garbage Moonbeam sometimes spits out about us knowing nothing, for if we knew nothing then how could we converse over thousands of miles like this? Obviously we know *something* or this would not be possible.
M: It's called pouring from the empty into the void. I know nothing and you know even less because you think you do. Try to understand that we are talking about understanding, hard as that concept must be because it's not easy to understand if you don't understand.
But please anyone reading, as unlikely as that might be, listen carefully to A. Take in his every work. Notice that my appeal is to hear him whereas he doesn't want you to listen to me. He shows his fear of my ideas but I fear nothing of his. Only he who listens deeply will hear his own heart. Take everything in and trust in yourself.
A: Moonbeam can say some interesting things, sometimes I agree with him and sometimes not, and sometimes he comes across as completely incomprehensible.
M: This is your personal view. You like some things that you agree with. You do not like some things you don't. You find interesting some things that don't hit you where you live. You see yourself in my mirror and I am the devil. Then you feign incomprehension to protect your ego. "What's the clown talking about?" Hehe, none of this is new to me.
A: Not a compliment for his part, those who can't make themselves understood are less likely those who have anything really worthwhile to say.
M: You know nothing and are stuffed full of your own opinions. When somebody adds or reinforces those opinions or argues with them on your own turf you revel. You live in the dead world of the known, the world of ideas past, of concepts clichés, opinions theories. When somebody comes along and asks you to look at the dark within you, you faint at the thought. It's fight or flight then, panic and the rolling our of cannon and fortified wall.
My Dear Sir, I will tell you a secret, if you promise not to tell anybody else. The reason the truth is a secret is because it's unpleasant. The truth is the ultimate offense to you. The truth will cause you to die. Good luck on finding it.
-----------------------------
A seeker went to see a Zen Master who was purported to know the Way. The master sat him down and served him tea. He poured into his already filled cup and kept right on pouring until the man exclaimed, "Stop the cup is overflowing." The Master said 'Unless you empty your cup how can I give you tea?'
A see
M: Actually, again what you do here is project your own laziness on others. This is exactly the same sort of lazy explanation for God that all other sleepers give. God is a power hiding in lightning or God doesn't exist because lightning is just a vast movement of electrons from a place of excess to a place of relatively greater scarcity. You and the nominally religious are talking about gods that don't exist. You both completely miss the fact of God as manifest by those who brought His love to man. You forget you know nothing so you have to invent explanations then turn around and complain that other invented explanations aren't any good. The last thing the blind notice is how blind they are, no?
A: When they come across something that they can't explain, they attribute it to some higher being, performing the miraculous.
M: Or pretend that because one explanation is wrong that all are as I just said.
A: Only until they can understand what they are seeing, and harness its power as their own, do they realize that it is not some higher being after all, for if they can control it, it must not be of deistic proportions.
M: Or deny that it exists so they don't have to deal with their lack of control and maintain the dominance of their own ego.
A: Religion is filler until we can understand what is going on.
M: Going to be a long time coming, no?
A: And yes, we do understand it, for we can harness its power and use it to our own devices.
M: AH, you are the CEO of God Powered Gas Co. I guess.
A: Don't listen to garbage Moonbeam sometimes spits out about us knowing nothing, for if we knew nothing then how could we converse over thousands of miles like this? Obviously we know *something* or this would not be possible.
M: It's called pouring from the empty into the void. I know nothing and you know even less because you think you do. Try to understand that we are talking about understanding, hard as that concept must be because it's not easy to understand if you don't understand.
But please anyone reading, as unlikely as that might be, listen carefully to A. Take in his every work. Notice that my appeal is to hear him whereas he doesn't want you to listen to me. He shows his fear of my ideas but I fear nothing of his. Only he who listens deeply will hear his own heart. Take everything in and trust in yourself.
A: Moonbeam can say some interesting things, sometimes I agree with him and sometimes not, and sometimes he comes across as completely incomprehensible.
M: This is your personal view. You like some things that you agree with. You do not like some things you don't. You find interesting some things that don't hit you where you live. You see yourself in my mirror and I am the devil. Then you feign incomprehension to protect your ego. "What's the clown talking about?" Hehe, none of this is new to me.
A: Not a compliment for his part, those who can't make themselves understood are less likely those who have anything really worthwhile to say.
M: You know nothing and are stuffed full of your own opinions. When somebody adds or reinforces those opinions or argues with them on your own turf you revel. You live in the dead world of the known, the world of ideas past, of concepts clichés, opinions theories. When somebody comes along and asks you to look at the dark within you, you faint at the thought. It's fight or flight then, panic and the rolling our of cannon and fortified wall.
My Dear Sir, I will tell you a secret, if you promise not to tell anybody else. The reason the truth is a secret is because it's unpleasant. The truth is the ultimate offense to you. The truth will cause you to die. Good luck on finding it.
-----------------------------
A seeker went to see a Zen Master who was purported to know the Way. The master sat him down and served him tea. He poured into his already filled cup and kept right on pouring until the man exclaimed, "Stop the cup is overflowing." The Master said 'Unless you empty your cup how can I give you tea?'
A see
I've read enough of your posts MB, to believe that I understand what you are getting at (or perhaps I've given things my own twist).
We are all nothing, there is no afterlife and there is no purpose to our being here other than what we choose to give it. We are simply a cosmic mistake. Given billions of stars and billions of planets in our universe and unfathomable amounts of time, it was inevitatble that life would begin somewhere.
Humans though, with their overly large brains, simply can't accept the fact that they are nothing. So instead, they invent these elaborate fairy tales to give themselves purpose and meaning and to help explain the unexplainable. It's human nature to do so.
So only by stripping all of that away can one get to the truth.
Logic and Science go hand in hand.
You don't believe in Science therefore you have no business even talking about "Logic".
In that case, since you are obviously lacking in the logic category, you have no business talking about science.
I agree with much of this but it is not my general thrust so let me say why as best I can:
DM:We are all nothing,
M: Yes but we do not live that way. The door to real being lies through being nothing. It is by really knowing our nothingness that our real worth is found. The sun of the ego blocks the candlelight of the heart.
DM: there is no afterlife and there is no purpose to our being here other than what we choose to give it.
M: I don't know if there is an afterlife. But Heaven is the abode of those who have died to the ego. There is an afterlife to psychic death. That is the death religions hint at and the ego turns into the hope of immortality.
DM: We are simply a cosmic mistake. Given billions of stars and billions of planets in our universe and unfathomable amounts of time, it was inevitable that life would begin somewhere.
M: Yes, but we are also Chimpanzees who love bananas and swinging from trees. We are JOY. Life loves life. Consciousness loves consciousness. Stripped of all the garbage we were fed we once again become playful happy apes. The universe evolved an animal capable of infinite love. The laws of the Universe via evolution created LOVE. LOVE is what the universe does.
DM: Humans though, with their overly large brains, simply can't accept the fact that they are nothing. So instead, they invent these elaborate fairy tales to give themselves purpose and meaning and to help explain the unexplainable. It's human nature to do so.
M: We are an ape that reasons in words and with words we created the hell of duality. With words we talked our minds out of consciousness of the eternal now and into thoughts which are all of the past. We mull over notions of good and evil that do not exist and call our children bad names and compare them to others we call good. We have infected ourselves with self hate with our words. We ate the apple from the tree of knowledge and split in two. We were thought to hate the ape we are. In its place we worship an idol called the ego, the self, the dead memory of yesterday we call the self. All our mental inventions and stories are fairytales to flatter ourselves.
DM: So only by stripping all of that away can one get to the truth.
M: To the fabulous truth of LOVE.
DM:We are all nothing,
M: Yes but we do not live that way. The door to real being lies through being nothing. It is by really knowing our nothingness that our real worth is found. The sun of the ego blocks the candlelight of the heart.
DM: there is no afterlife and there is no purpose to our being here other than what we choose to give it.
M: I don't know if there is an afterlife. But Heaven is the abode of those who have died to the ego. There is an afterlife to psychic death. That is the death religions hint at and the ego turns into the hope of immortality.
DM: We are simply a cosmic mistake. Given billions of stars and billions of planets in our universe and unfathomable amounts of time, it was inevitable that life would begin somewhere.
M: Yes, but we are also Chimpanzees who love bananas and swinging from trees. We are JOY. Life loves life. Consciousness loves consciousness. Stripped of all the garbage we were fed we once again become playful happy apes. The universe evolved an animal capable of infinite love. The laws of the Universe via evolution created LOVE. LOVE is what the universe does.
DM: Humans though, with their overly large brains, simply can't accept the fact that they are nothing. So instead, they invent these elaborate fairy tales to give themselves purpose and meaning and to help explain the unexplainable. It's human nature to do so.
M: We are an ape that reasons in words and with words we created the hell of duality. With words we talked our minds out of consciousness of the eternal now and into thoughts which are all of the past. We mull over notions of good and evil that do not exist and call our children bad names and compare them to others we call good. We have infected ourselves with self hate with our words. We ate the apple from the tree of knowledge and split in two. We were thought to hate the ape we are. In its place we worship an idol called the ego, the self, the dead memory of yesterday we call the self. All our mental inventions and stories are fairytales to flatter ourselves.
DM: So only by stripping all of that away can one get to the truth.
M: To the fabulous truth of LOVE.
Oh jeez, here we go again. The world operates in spite of useless wackos like Moonbeam. Seriously, what good does it do having the opinion that you are 'nothing'? I mean, you can think that way sure, but eventually you're just going to get ignored because your words are of no use to anyone but yourself and you thinking you have it all figured out by using meaningless phrases that sound smart but in the end amount to a whole lot of nothing.
People should ignore Moonbeam because he's not saying anything important. Even he admits this, but tries to drag us all into it by telling us we are all nothing "in perspective of the big bad universe". Seriously Moonbeam, who cares? This is why nihilists like yourself are ignored. It may be all well and true that we are 'nothing' in the eyes of the universe, but we're not living for the universe are we? We're living for ourselves, and yes, we have succeeded somewhat in *understanding* the laws of nature. That's why much of what we do today is possible. Without understanding, we would not be able to use it to our own devices. I don't think you understand this yet, which is why your self-fluffing "we are nothing! we know nothing! everything is meaningless!" rings so hollow.
I just wish you'd understand that a lot of what you say could be condensed into those few words, and then you'd realize how silly you're making yourself sound.
That's using circular logic again. Moonbeam is saying there is no truth, and yet we must follow Moonbeams advice to find the truth, which we won't find because there is none, but only Moonbeam knows this. It all comes back to Moonbeam supposedly knowing some ultimate knowledge (read the condescending "I know a secret" "but you don't want to know it because you're not like me" remark), but really he's just trying to make himself look philosophical and smart. There are many, many like him. They all get left behind, and for good reason.
Moonbeam, good luck with your words. Trying to bring down centuries of research and study and use of that research and study can't be an easy thing. It all goes back to the old standby of "we are nothing in the eyes of the universe" though, which just leads me to believe that there is actual use in what we humans do. Maybe not for the 'universe', but for ourselves. Until you understand that humans live for themselves, and not for the entire universe, I don't think you'll really understand why we don't follow your circular logic.
EDIT: And now you turn right around and start spouting off nonsense about love and puppies. Which is it?
People should ignore Moonbeam because he's not saying anything important. Even he admits this, but tries to drag us all into it by telling us we are all nothing "in perspective of the big bad universe". Seriously Moonbeam, who cares? This is why nihilists like yourself are ignored. It may be all well and true that we are 'nothing' in the eyes of the universe, but we're not living for the universe are we? We're living for ourselves, and yes, we have succeeded somewhat in *understanding* the laws of nature. That's why much of what we do today is possible. Without understanding, we would not be able to use it to our own devices. I don't think you understand this yet, which is why your self-fluffing "we are nothing! we know nothing! everything is meaningless!" rings so hollow.
I just wish you'd understand that a lot of what you say could be condensed into those few words, and then you'd realize how silly you're making yourself sound.
That's using circular logic again. Moonbeam is saying there is no truth, and yet we must follow Moonbeams advice to find the truth, which we won't find because there is none, but only Moonbeam knows this. It all comes back to Moonbeam supposedly knowing some ultimate knowledge (read the condescending "I know a secret" "but you don't want to know it because you're not like me" remark), but really he's just trying to make himself look philosophical and smart. There are many, many like him. They all get left behind, and for good reason.
Moonbeam, good luck with your words. Trying to bring down centuries of research and study and use of that research and study can't be an easy thing. It all goes back to the old standby of "we are nothing in the eyes of the universe" though, which just leads me to believe that there is actual use in what we humans do. Maybe not for the 'universe', but for ourselves. Until you understand that humans live for themselves, and not for the entire universe, I don't think you'll really understand why we don't follow your circular logic.
EDIT: And now you turn right around and start spouting off nonsense about love and puppies. Which is it?
Ryan
Lifer
- Oct 31, 2000
- 27,519
- 2
- 81
I don't define my own morality by what is law at the time. I try to base my moral code on intent, and the effects of an action on everyone - a variation of the pragmatic method. For ow - it works for me. Not to say that, though, that other methods might be better for other people - or that my sense of morality isn't always evolving - it is.
This is the whole problem with this argument. When you call moonbeam an idiot because what he is saying is stupid, he simply retreats to his argument that you are somehow defending your massive ego and threatened by the Truth that he presents. His reasoning is (as said before) circular, and nonsensical. Just becauses he brackets his psychobabble in deliberately incomprehensible language does not make his ideas any less stupid.
What he's saying has been said before across a thousand freshman dorm rooms at 3AM. Most people are just mildly embarassed by it the next day... they don't rush to post it on a forum. My roomate burst out laughing when she read some of what he had written because it reminded her of her college days.
What he's saying has been said before across a thousand freshman dorm rooms at 3AM. Most people are just mildly embarassed by it the next day... they don't rush to post it on a forum. My roomate burst out laughing when she read some of what he had written because it reminded her of her college days.
You even babble when you're talking trash.
As just a point for my own knowledge (and I don't mean this as an insult), how old are you? I'm curious.
shira
Diamond Member
- Jan 12, 2005
- 9,500
- 6
- 81
I've had my differences with Moonie, but he can be quite entertaining. And I think there's a lot of truth behind much of what he says.
What I personally find most irritating about Moonie's persona (if that's what what it is [and I hope for his sake that it IS really just a facade]) is his lack of vulnerability. Moonie would have us believe that his posts are for our benefit, and his affectation is that's he's the guru, the flame, the object of attention. WE'RE never the object of HIS attention or a source of wisdom.
Oh, he periodically tells us that he's a worthless or clueless or as whatever as the rest of us. But he will NEVER acknowledge that posts here influence him or otherwise have any meaning to him.
The irony is that Moonbeam tells us how important love is. Yet the essence of love is vulnerability.
As I said, I hope for his sake that this is just an act.
My friend, I don't know how to act. I am what I am. To act, wouldn't that be some sort of defense, some attempt to be invulnerable since what would be shot at wouldn't be me?
I am just like you with maybe one exception. I know that all my pain comes from the past, that psychological pain is all of the ego, all an awakener of deeply buried put downs we got as children. The true self can't be harmed by anything of this world or the next. It isn't invulnerability or vulnerability, it is a lack of self. There is nothing to be protected there. This is a mystery and it relates to the fact that if you will but suffer you will not suffer. You can be told this and believe it or not, but you can know it only by finding out. To take that chance is to be vulnerable. But to have fully exposed yourself to all of it is to be free.
Suffering is holding on, attachment to imaginary things. The ego is that which won't allow you to feel.
Now that I think of it though, what I am isn't an act, but maybe a presentation of a point of view. I am not important as a person but my nonpersonage is. When you look at somebody you know you see the past, what they are to you in relationship. If you knew, for example that I am, oh let's say OJ Simpson, what kind of a mirror would I be. Nobody would get past the fact I'm a killer and listen to me. 'I' am bad for the image you see of yourself in my mirror if I have an individual personality. Loot at the attacks I get and their focused nature and compare that to the fact I put little of me out there to see. There is no better illustration of projection in the world than what we project into nothing.
I would love to tell you all about who I am and where I've been and all that sort of stuff but I see that the world is dying because we project. I do my tiny part here on this board to possible help some see that. So not only am I a nobody, I try to keep it that way.
hahahaha. Lookout guys... with all those childhood ego affecting traumas Moonie is starting to sound like a scientologist. Purge your engrams! Hell, this conversation is giving me an engram.
If you're telling the truth that this isn't an act (which I doubt), then that must be terrible for everyone around you. I can't imagine what having a real conversation with you would be like... only that I'm certain I don't want to find out.
Am I the only person here who is reminded of those insufferable people in high school and college who tried to act like a guru ?
shira
Diamond Member
- Jan 12, 2005
- 9,500
- 6
- 81
But look, Moonbeam, this dovetails exactly with the point I was making (a point made, by the way, not to "win"):
If you truly believe that to be free one has to fully expose oneself, then why don't you expose yourself even a little bit on these forums?
I'm not speaking about revealing the details of your life. I'm speaking of revealing an occasional detail about what is going on within you emotionally.
Surely you have doubts at times. Surely someone, somehwere (<=== LOOK AT ME; I CAN'T SPELL. NOW THAT'S VULNERABILITY) on these forums posts something that enlightens you (meaning that someone knew something you didn't know). Why, then, do we never hear about these moments of human fallibility? To be human is to be almost entirely fallible, but you never expose your fallibility.
Why?
Shows how much you know. The center of the universe has been known for more than 10 years (IIRC).
1. Black people have a different experience of racism than whites. They have experiences whites can't that give them these insights. Tell people they hate themselves and do it with bad spelling and see what happens, hehe. You will be amazed at just how much sudden new attention your bad spelling will get. It won't be long and the world will be convinced that if you can't spell it means you have bad feelings about yourself. Trust me, hehe.
2. I said that one can get to a place that is beyond vulnerability and invulnerability and that one gets their by exposing oneself. I was referring to exposing oneself to oneself opening oneself to one's own bad feelings. I am suggesting that self knowledge is the way to freedom. This kind of work is usually done in a small tight group that works together and with the knowledge that what triggers something in them is not the fault of the other but something hidden within. Most folk put others down not to find the source of the feeling within, but to bury it deeper by flattering their ego like Eskimo and his roommate did a few posts ago.
3. If you notice people react often times defensively to what I post. I maintain it's because I touch a nerve in them. People feel like the worst in the world and know it somewhere within. If I were to call somebody an idiot they might get mad but if I called them a maluba they might not. We react to put downs because we already feel bad, in this case like an idiot, but nobody really minds being maluba. There is no history of the past adhering to the term.
It is this defensiveness, I think, that keeps people blind to something perfectly obvious to me and something I am surprised nobody ever points out. I know exactly how people are because I know me. Everything I say about anybody that drives them mad I can see because I can see it in me.
They may project on me, but I have to know who I am to see them in me. Not that I can't also project, mind you, but I aim not to put down but to reveal. I am the things I describe. If I know anything real, not the garbage created by the ego, it is because I have done some feeling what I really feel. I have been into what is dark for most people. TRENDING THREADS
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