Local Response Before the Storm . . .

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Deudalus

Ok, so, now an "indirect hit" is grounds for a mandatory evacuation?

For someone with 52,000 posts that would seem to be following the news very closely, especially this hurricane katrina catastrophe, I thought you would have at least heard by now that this WAS an indirect hit.

But you and your armchair quarterbacking mixed with a partisan agenda doesn't even know the basic facts of what you are ranting about.

http://ngs.woc.noaa.gov/katrina/KATRINA0000.HTM

Please allow me to educate you so at least you know what you are talking about while you are blaming Bush. Hurricane facts:

1) The East side of the eye is much worse than the west. Due to it spinng counterclockwise east winds would push water up the Mississippi River and into New Orleans along with water from the Gulf of Mexico and low lying marshlands. New Orleans was 30+ miles to the west of where the eye hit.

2) The Northeast side of the eye is the worst specifically. It generates the most wind, the most rain, and tornados.

3) The Western side is the weakest side. That is the side where the feeder bands weaken, where there is less rain, and much less of a chance of tornados. Plus the western side pushes water south. In the case of New Orleans it pushed water from Lake Ponchatrain south into New Orleans which compared with pushing water north from the river and Gulf of Mexico is much much less catastrophic.

4) For every mile away from the eye you are, you recieve far far less wind strength. There is a science in this which I'm trying to look up but the basic gist of it is this. The difference in destructive capability of 40 mph to 50 mph is far less than the destructive capability of wind strength going from 150-160 mph.

Thus, had this storm hit 40-50 miles west as they thought it would, we wouldn't have to argue about how poor relief planning was because there would be no one that survived it.


This is why anyone living east of where the eye hit in Louisiana has basically got to start all over. I have several friends that live in Chalmette that caught the eastern part of the eye and they still to this day have 20+ feet of water where their homes are.

New Orleans remained largely dry even through the levees breaking. The Garden District didn't flood nor did the French Quarter to speak of. If New Orleans would have caught the eastern side New Orleans would have likely had 30 feet or more of water.

The levees would not have broken 2 days later, they would have been overrun during the storm by several feet of water which not only put more water into the city, it would have completely washed away the levee. Not a 300 yard long hole in the levee, the levee would be gone completely.

Uh...no...that's a direct hit. The eye passed right over the city! The eye wasn't just a couple of miles across...it was HUGE. And, a Cat 4 missing just east is still going to have some major winds north and west. The storm surge went into the lake and then the winds came whipping from the north, pushing all that water south and into the canals which caused the overtopping and breaching of the floodwalls.

An indirect hit would be like Baton Rouge or Mobile. This storm was HUGE.

The CBD and the FQ are dry as they are above sea level (they are close to the Mississippi River and are at higher elevations than the rest of the city). Now, if the River levee had breached...lookout below.

Look at the damage around Mandeville. The lake water went as far inland as Monroe St. Trees are down everywhere and structures are damaged. Don't even try and say that western side wasn't worth worrying about.

http://architecture.about.com/od/domes/f/superdome.htm

Overtime everything weakens first of all. Second of all, if it was built to withstand 200 mile per hour winds then how did 145 mile per hour winds rip off part of the roof? The fact is they guesstimate that it will stand 200, but seeing how well it withstood 145 I'm not convinced.

The roof structure is intact minus 3 squares. Being a resident down there ( :roll: ) you should know that outer layer on the roof is just to make it look pretty, it's not for protection)

After all of your rantings about this hurricane and faulting Bush and whatnot, I find it particularly sad that you don't even know the basics of this particular storm, of hurricanes in general, or of where this hurricane actually went.

You're pretty sad Conjur. I've lost what little respect I ever had for you.

Ya know its one thing when you at least know the facts but your brain distorts them with an agenda. Alot of people have that problem.

But you are ignorant of the facts, oblivious to this problem of yours, and apparently don't even care as long as you can continue to rant like some internet Jimmy Swaggert trying to get your message out to the masses.

I'm truly pathetic.

I agree. You're pretty damn pathetic the way you try to twist the truth and play up to some sort of authority because you apparently live in the area (but you manage to post a helluva lot for someone whose city has no power, food, water, etc.)

 

[Deudalus]

Uh...no...that's a direct hit. The eye passed right over the city! They eye wasn't just a couple of miles across...it was HUGE. And, a Cat 4 missing just east is still going to have some major winds north and west. The storm surge went into the lake and then the winds came whipping from the north, pushing all that water south and into the canals which caused the overtopping and breaching.

An indirect hit would be like Baton Rouge or Mobile. This storm was HUGE.

It isn't a direct hit. The current state of New Orleans is a very very very long freakin ways from the worst case scenario for New Orleans. Ask Dave how much worse this would have been if the eye would have passed on the western side of the city instead of eastern side.

The storm being huge has nothing to do with the damage that it causes in a specific area. You do not understand this because you do not understand that all sides of a hurricane do not possess the same destructive capability.

You live in Kentucky, when there is a bootlegging whiskey crisis you will no doubt be the authority. Until then, stop pretending to be the authority on everything else.

The roof structure is intact minus 3 squares. Being a resident down there ( ) you should know that outer layer on the roof is just to make it look pretty, it's not for protection)

Do you honestly think if the entire roof was ripped off the dome everyone would have made it out OK?

I agree. You're pretty damn pathetic the way you try to twist the truth and play up to some sort of authority because you apparently live in the area (but you manage to post a helluva lot for someone whose city has no power, food, water, etc.)

I evacuated to a different state and I'm staying with my brother, whats your point.

Your basic hurricane ignorance, despite your best attempt to sound like the authority, has nothing to do with how much I post.

If you knew anything about hurricanes you would realize how wrong you are about this being a direct hit/worst case scenario. If you had any common sense at all then you would realize that the officials shouldn't wait until they are completely sure they are going to be screwed because then it is too late to get people out.

The reason for this is because, as I have stated time and time again, by the time you know which side the eye is going to pass you on and how close (which is what truly determines how much damage is caused) it is too late to do anything.

 

[TRUMPHENT]

Originally posted by: Deudalus

Ok, so, now an "indirect hit" is grounds for a mandatory evacuation?

For someone with 52,000 posts that would seem to be following the news very closely, especially this hurricane katrina catastrophe, I thought you would have at least heard by now that this WAS an indirect hit.

But you and your armchair quarterbacking mixed with a partisan agenda doesn't even know the basic facts of what you are ranting about.

http://ngs.woc.noaa.gov/katrina/KATRINA0000.HTM

Please allow me to educate you so at least you know what you are talking about while you are blaming Bush. Hurricane facts:

1) The East side of the eye is much worse than the west. Due to it spinng counterclockwise east winds would push water up the Mississippi River and into New Orleans along with water from the Gulf of Mexico and low lying marshlands. New Orleans was 30+ miles to the west of where the eye hit.

2) The Northeast side of the eye is the worst specifically. It generates the most wind, the most rain, and tornados.

3) The Western side is the weakest side. That is the side where the feeder bands weaken, where there is less rain, and much less of a chance of tornados. Plus the western side pushes water south. In the case of New Orleans it pushed water from Lake Ponchatrain south into New Orleans which compared with pushing water north from the river and Gulf of Mexico is much much less catastrophic.

4) For every mile away from the eye you are, you recieve far far less wind strength. There is a science in this which I'm trying to look up but the basic gist of it is this. The difference in destructive capability of 40 mph to 50 mph is far less than the destructive capability of wind strength going from 150-160 mph.

Thus, had this storm hit 40-50 miles west as they thought it would, we wouldn't have to argue about how poor relief planning was because there would be no one that survived it.


This is why anyone living east of where the eye hit in Louisiana has basically got to start all over. I have several friends that live in Chalmette that caught the eastern part of the eye and they still to this day have 20+ feet of water where their homes are.

New Orleans remained largely dry even through the levees breaking. The Garden District didn't flood nor did the French Quarter to speak of. If New Orleans would have caught the eastern side New Orleans would have likely had 30 feet or more of water.

The levees would not have broken 2 days later, they would have been overrun during the storm by several feet of water which not only put more water into the city, it would have completely washed away the levee. Not a 300 yard long hole in the levee, the levee would be gone completely.

http://architecture.about.com/od/domes/f/superdome.htm

Overtime everything weakens first of all. Second of all, if it was built to withstand 200 mile per hour winds then how did 145 mile per hour winds rip off part of the roof? The fact is they guesstimate that it will stand 200, but seeing how well it withstood 145 I'm not convinced.



After all of your rantings about this hurricane and faulting Bush and whatnot, I find it particularly sad that you don't even know the basics of this particular storm, of hurricanes in general, or of where this hurricane actually went.

You're pretty sad Conjur. I've lost what little respect I ever had for you.

Ya know its one thing when you at least know the facts but your brain distorts them with an agenda. Alot of people have that problem.

But you are ignorant of the facts, oblivious to this problem of yours, and apparently don't even care as long as you can continue to rant like some internet Jimmy Swaggert trying to get your message out to the masses.

Truly pathetic.

Katrina had max sustained winds of 145mph. Gusts can go much higher. During Andrew, another well known storm it did damage to structures far beyond its max sustained winds.

The "stack" of Turkey Point Unit 2 was cracked from top to bottom like a cheap cigar. It is approximately 200 ft tall. It was built to withstand winds of 230mph.

Even the weaker quadrant of storm the size of Katrina would be devasting.

 

[Deudalus]

Look at the damage around Mandeville. The lake water went as far inland as Monroe St. Trees are down everywhere and structures are damaged. Don't even try and say that western side wasn't worth worrying about.

Futhermore, don't lecture me about Mandeville. I was supposed to be there for a wedding last Saturday.

The fact is I've been there. I was back at St. Charles Parish the day after the storm. To put it into perspective, I went to Marrero and Westwego in Jefferson Parish south of the city the day after the storm. There were buildings damaged heavily, there were trees down everywhere, but I didn't see a single home that had been taken down to the ground. This was on the western side of the eye.

Compare that to pictures of Mississippi which caught the eastern side of the eye. Look at strong buildings like casinos and newer homes that no longer exist because they were on the stronger side of the hurricane.

Once again, get educated on how hurricanes work then come back and pretend you know something. At least then you actually might have some understanding of what is going on here.

 

[Deudalus]

Even the weaker quadrant of storm the size of Katrina would be devasting.

That is essentially my point.

For Conjur to defend the governor and mayor saying:

Ok, so, now an "indirect hit" is grounds for a mandatory evacuation?

is completely silly. While New Orleans didn't get a direct hit, even an indirect hit from a Cat 4 or 5 storm which they knew they were going to get since late Friday night or early Saturday morning can (and did) cause catastrophic damage. What I'm trying to make Conjur understand is that this wasn't a direct hit. It wasn't the worst case scenario. To argue that it was anywhere near that is silly and shows a lack of understanding about hurricanes.


Everyone knew that south Louisiana was going to get screwed on Saturday. Hell my parents are in their mid 60's and have lived in south Louisiana for their entire lives and they were preparing to evacuate on Saturday afternoon despite the fact that they lived 30 miles west of New Orleans.

 

[FuzzyBee]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Deudalus

First off, it's "bused", not "bussed".

Also not true you are on a roll today Conjur.

Look at the media. See anyone using "bussed"? I haven't.

But, I stand corrected, technically.

:roll:

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: CaptnKirk
How Local Officials Prepared for Katrina

What more do you think was their job ? They gave it a huge effort.

Read and heed - no excuses.

Normally I monitor the gulf.

The weather service kept saying the storm was heading up to Pensacola.

There was nothing saying it was heading our way until 2 days out.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Deudalus

Uh...no...that's a direct hit. The eye passed right over the city! They eye wasn't just a couple of miles across...it was HUGE. And, a Cat 4 missing just east is still going to have some major winds north and west. The storm surge went into the lake and then the winds came whipping from the north, pushing all that water south and into the canals which caused the overtopping and breaching.

An indirect hit would be like Baton Rouge or Mobile. This storm was HUGE.

It isn't a direct hit. The current state of New Orleans is a very very very long freakin ways from the worst case scenario for New Orleans. Ask Dave how much worse this would have been if the eye would have passed on the western side of the city instead of eastern side.

The storm being huge has nothing to do with the damage that it causes in a specific area. You do not understand this because you do not understand that all sides of a hurricane do not possess the same destructive capability.

You live in Kentucky, when there is a bootlegging whiskey crisis you will no doubt be the authority. Until then, stop pretending to be the authority on everything else.

The roof structure is intact minus 3 squares. Being a resident down there ( ) you should know that outer layer on the roof is just to make it look pretty, it's not for protection)

Do you honestly think if the entire roof was ripped off the dome everyone would have made it out OK?

I agree. You're pretty damn pathetic the way you try to twist the truth and play up to some sort of authority because you apparently live in the area (but you manage to post a helluva lot for someone whose city has no power, food, water, etc.)

I evacuated to a different state and I'm staying with my brother, whats your point.

Your basic hurricane ignorance, despite your best attempt to sound like the authority, has nothing to do with how much I post.

If you knew anything about hurricanes you would realize how wrong you are about this being a direct hit/worst case scenario. If you had any common sense at all then you would realize that the officials shouldn't wait until they are completely sure they are going to be screwed because then it is too late to get people out.

The reason for this is because, as I have stated time and time again, by the time you know which side the eye is going to pass you on and how close (which is what truly determines how much damage is caused) it is too late to do anything.

I'll ignore your ignorant insults this time and focus on the topic of discussion.



Direct Hit:
A close approach of a tropical cyclone to a particular location. For locations on the left-hand side of a tropical cyclone's track (looking in the direction of motion), a direct hit occurs when the cyclone passes to within a distance equal to the cyclone's radius of maximum wind. For locations on the right-hand side of the track, a direct hit occurs when the cyclone passes to within a distance equal to twice the radius of maximum wind. Compare indirect hit, strike.


Care to tell us how far the eye was from N.O.?

The radius would be about 15 miles which pretty much puts it at a direct hit as the eye went over Lake Borgne toward Slidell.

 

[Michael]

What amazes me is that the blame the Feds crowd (as opposed to the blame the locals crowd which also exists) toss up a few cases where FEMA "responded faster" and they're just accepted. Or not the same a sa hurricane is tossed out.

In fact, FEMA had responded with much more people and teams well before the storm than sending a couple of people from some sort of bomb squad as in the examples cited. It was all over the news and it isns't hard to find links proving it.

ConTroll also says that "massive" aid didn't show up until Saturday when that also obviously isn't true since the Superdome and the Convention center were evacuated by then and the Coast Guard had been conducting operations since the storm ended.

FEMA certainly bumbled around somewhat in the initial response to the flooding, but I fail to understand why people think that teleportation or some other form of instant transport has already been invented.

I'm not sure wy I'm bothing to respond in this thread. The same people show up in thread after thread and say the same things over and over. I'm not sure why ConTroll thinks that posting the same crap over and over in a forum like this makes any difference in life.

Michael

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Michael
What amazes me is that the blame the Feds crowd (as opposed to the blame the locals crowd which also exists) toss up a few cases where FEMA "responded faster" and they're just accepted. Or not the same a sa hurricane is tossed out.

In fact, FEMA had responded with much more people and teams well before the storm than sending a couple of people from some sort of bomb squad as in the examples cited. It was all over the news and it isns't hard to find links proving it.

ConTroll also says that "massive" aid didn't show up until Saturday when that also obviously isn't true since the Superdome and the Convention center were evacuated by then and the Coast Guard had been conducting operations since the storm ended.

FEMA certainly bumbled around somewhat in the initial response to the flooding, but I fail to understand why people think that teleportation or some other form of instant transport has already been invented.

I'm not sure wy I'm bothing to respond in this thread. The same people show up in thread after thread and say the same things over and over. I'm not sure why ConTroll thinks that posting the same crap over and over in a forum like this makes any difference in life.

Michael

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2005/09/02.html#a4763

That was Friday night.


How's that foot taste?

 

[Michael]

conTroll,

You mean the one in your mouth? Must be pretty bland as it seems to spend almost all of its time in there.

You said massive aid started showing up on Saturday. Friday is before Saturday, even if your one link from a suspect website is somehow "proof".

Look up when the first big convoys reached the Superdome. Before Saturday. There were plenty of FEMA and local and State people in NO before then as well. The Coast Guard was there. It wasn't that there wasn't a pretty big aid effort going on, the fact is that as big as it was, it didn't compare to the size of the disaster.

You're a long-time liar and troll. The fact that you lie and lie again has been proven time and time again. You just ignore it and continue with a new lie.

 

[conjur]

Ah, more hyperbole, duh-version and insults.

Click the link, Michael. You'll be pleasantly surprised. It's your lover-boy, Sean Hannity and his show on FOX. Only this time, the truth was laid bare by Shepard Smith and Geraldo Rivera. Go ahead...click it. Chicken?

 

[Michael]

conTroll,

Again with the lies. I did click it. Friday isn't Saturday, now is it? "Great" source, like I already said.

I live in Singapore and barely even know who Hannity is, you freaking idiot. Even when I was living in California (left just over a year ago), I didn't listen to talk radio and when I did it was Howard Stern because I prefer entertainment over blather - "conservative" or not. Howard Stern just love Bush, now doesn't he?

Also, I have actually and literally voted "Liberal" quite often in my life. I'm Canadian, support same-sex marriage (but feel that this is a moral issue that means my views are not the only ones) and I can go on for pages of why your views on me are and always have been full of crap. You like to say that only "Conservatives" or "Bush lovers" would disagree with you when moderates like me think you're full of sh!t and that you dump it here on a daily basis.

Are you still denying that your hyperbole about "massive" aid arriving only by Saturday is just spin and empty air? You're a troll and you troll every day. The purpose of your threads that you start is pure troll. At least posting here probably keeps you off the streets where you'd probably be picked up and tossed into a facility for evaluation. Then again, that may actually help you.

Michael

 

[imported_Condor]

Originally posted by: CaptnKirk
How Local Officials Prepared for Katrina

What more do you think was their job ? They gave it a huge effort.

Read and heed - no excuses.

That is like when you are constipated and you give it a huge effort and nothing comes out! You haven't done a dawned thing but grunt!

 

[mikeford]

It wasn't pleasant, and I wasn't surprized. Entertainment news is what I can do without, just like they can do without facts.

 

[Deudalus]

I'll ignore your ignorant insults this time and focus on the topic of discussion.



Direct Hit:
A close approach of a tropical cyclone to a particular location. For locations on the left-hand side of a tropical cyclone's track (looking in the direction of motion), a direct hit occurs when the cyclone passes to within a distance equal to the cyclone's radius of maximum wind. For locations on the right-hand side of the track, a direct hit occurs when the cyclone passes to within a distance equal to twice the radius of maximum wind. Compare indirect hit, strike.


Care to tell us how far the eye was from N.O.?

The radius would be about 15 miles which pretty much puts it at a direct hit as the eye went over Lake Borgne toward Slidell.

I could care less where you dug that up Conjur.

The point is the eastern side is tons more catastrophic than the western side. If you think this is Republican propaganda then by all means do some research, or just ask Dave.

It is a fact.

 

[conjur]

Ah...dismissing facts now because it tears apart your argument. Gotcha.


I never said the western side wasn't weaker. I know that. Just because I live in a land-locked state doesn't mean I don't know a thing or two about the weather. You got meteorology degree? Go to school with TrollsLikeChicken or something?


The point being that the western side of a Cat 4 is still going to be devastating and it does classify as a direct hit due to the proximity of the eye to the city.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Michael
conTroll,

Again with the lies. I did click it. Friday isn't Saturday, now is it? "Great" source, like I already said.

I live in Singapore and barely even know who Hannity is, you freaking idiot. Even when I was living in California (left just over a year ago), I didn't listen to talk radio and when I did it was Howard Stern because I prefer entertainment over blather - "conservative" or not. Howard Stern just love Bush, now doesn't he?

Also, I have actually and literally voted "Liberal" quite often in my life. I'm Canadian, support same-sex marriage (but feel that this is a moral issue that means my views are not the only ones) and I can go on for pages of why your views on me are and always have been full of crap. You like to say that only "Conservatives" or "Bush lovers" would disagree with you when moderates like me think you're full of sh!t and that you dump it here on a daily basis.

Are you still denying that your hyperbole about "massive" aid arriving only by Saturday is just spin and empty air? You're a troll and you troll every day. The purpose of your threads that you start is pure troll. At least posting here probably keeps you off the streets where you'd probably be picked up and tossed into a facility for evaluation. Then again, that may actually help you.

Michael

Yeah...SO much happened between 9pm Fri. night and Sat. morning. :roll:

I was watching the WWL and WDSU feeds Fri. night and Sat. morning. The help in the form of a huge convoy of buses did not arrive until Sat. morning. There were still thousands and thousands of people at the Dome and the Conv. Ctr. on Sat. morning.

 

[Deudalus]

Originally posted by: conjur


The point being that the western side of a Cat 4 is still going to be devastating and it does classify as a direct hit due to the proximity of the eye to the city.

Then why praytell were you arguing just a couple of posts ago that they shouldn't evacuate until they were sure it would be a direct hit?

Everyone in that area knew we were going to get nailed since at least Saturday morning. I certain knew it then, what about you Dave?

Why wait for over a day to call for a mandatory evac?

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Deudalus

Originally posted by: conjur


The point being that the western side of a Cat 4 is still going to be devastating and it does classify as a direct hit due to the proximity of the eye to the city.

Then why praytell were you arguing just a couple of posts ago that they shouldn't evacuate until they were should it would be a direct hit?

Everyone in that area knew we were going to get nailed since at least Saturday morning. I certain knew it then, what about you Dave?

Why wait for over a day to call for a mandatory evac?

That's probably the one thing Nagin can be faulted on. He did urge people to start leaving and I'm sure quite a few did. But, remember, at 5am Saturday it was just barely a Cat 3. Then, on Sunday morning, the 1st ever mandatory evac was finally issued.

 

[Michael]

conTroll,

Still avoiding my reply. Still avoiding the fact that you're spinning hyperbole about what efforts were "massive". Avoiding the fact that you're claiming I'm slave to some sort of right-wing windbag on talk radio - one that I've barely heard of and don't listen to.

Friday isn't Saturday, now is it? When did the extra food and supplied start arriving at the Superdome? Wasn't Saturday morning. If there were "thousands" left, what happened to the "tens of thousands" that were there before that?

Keep trolling away. I'm sure your contributions here will really make a difference.

Michael