Local Response Before the Storm . . .

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CaptnKirk

Lifer
Jul 25, 2002
10,053
0
71
On Sunday, at 2 pm he did yes. I was in my car evacuating myself when they called for the mandatory evacuation.
That was little over 12 hours before the storm hit the city


Maybe it be beneficial to turn on the TV more.
Here in Fort Worth, I watched the 6 A.M. broadcast of the Mayor of New Orleans calling for the immediate and complete evacuation of the city. It was repeated on the 15 - 30 - 45 & hour for the rest of the day - NBC.

Why you didn't know for another 8 hours sounds like your choice in radio & television programming contributed.
 

Deudalus

Golden Member
Jan 16, 2005
1,090
0
0
Not updated in 40 years? That's not what has been reported up here.

Well let's see, I could spend a couple of days showing you all the corruption in New Orleans by local officials. All the theivery. All the money wasted by the Army Corp of Engineers.

The last storm that did this much damage to Louisiana was in the late 60's, thats near 40 years to realize that one would come again and we should prepare. Are you seriously going to argue that the Army Corp of Engineers prepared for this storm?

As for why is it the feds' faults? Ummm...some words for you:

Mike Brown (Fired)

I'm not surprised he was fired. Someone has to take the fall over this debacle. It is very easy to blame the feds and of course the feds are going to go into damage control. But the point is, if the local and state officials had planned for this AT ALL nowhere near this many lives would have been lost.

And, did you not read the article in the OP nor see Nagin's interview on Meet The Press?

I read the entire OP but I haven't seen the interview.

We've been over this ad nauseum. EVERYONE knew this storm was going to overwhelm state and local resources. That's why the Gov. even said so when she declared a state of emergency on Aug. 26 and wrote her letter to the President saying local/state resources would be overwhelmed.

What state and local resources?

The local resources that made no attemp to evacuate ANYONE from the city before the storm? The same local resources that didn't provide any food or water and instead locked people up in the Superdome for days?

Are you seriously trying to tell me the state and locals were on the ball here?


Read and consider
There was almost 48 hours that New Orleans knew it was screwed before the storm hit. I know this because it was Saturday morning that I saw it was a very very strong storm and getting stronger and headed towards us. Furthermore, it was huge so there was really no way it could miss New Orleans.

Supercomputers aided the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration in accurately forecasting Hurricane Katrina's path. The storm devastated the coastal areas of Alabama, Louisiana and Mississippi.

"Two and a half to three days before the hurricane hit, we were pretty much zoomed in on the Louisiana/Mississippi Gulf Coast as where the hurricane would hit," said Jack Beven, a hurricane specialist at the NOAA Tropical Prediction Center. "It's probably not the most accurate we've been, but it's certainly pretty accurate."

Link to the Hurricane Scientists

At that point, the Mayor should have called for a mandatory evacuation. Instead, he waited another 28 hours. He should have also done 1 of 2 things. He should have either mobilized the city transit to evacuate people from the city. The people without transportation rally at bus stops everyday. All he would have had to do is have people go to those stops and the RTA city bus system could have removed them from the city. Or, he should have begun to stock up the Superdome, The Arena, and the Convention Center with food, water, and medical supplies. He could have had the National Guard which the governor supposedly activated 2 days earlier to go down there and stock up the dome on these needed supplies.

There was no lawlessness, violence, and obviously no flooding at that point. Could they not have done these things?

Yet none of these things were done were they? Do you know how many lives would have been saved by doing those simple things? Can you explain to me why none of them were done?
 

Deudalus

Golden Member
Jan 16, 2005
1,090
0
0
Originally posted by: CaptnKirk
On Sunday, at 2 pm he did yes. I was in my car evacuating myself when they called for the mandatory evacuation.
That was little over 12 hours before the storm hit the city


Maybe it be beneficial to turn on the TV more.
Here in Fort Worth, I watched the 6 A.M. broadcast of the Mayor of New Orleans calling for the immediate and complete evacuation of the city. It was repeated on the 15 - 30 - 45 & hour for the rest of the day - NBC.

Why you didn't know for another 8 hours sounds like your choice in radio & television programming contributed.


There is a difference between the Mayor asking everyone to please leave immediately and calling for a mandatory evacuation.

Mandatory evacuation means they do everything in their power to make you leave. Asking you to leave immediately is just what it sounds like.

"Pretty please, with sugar on top, go ahead and go now. Its going to be bad here and stuff."
 

outriding

Diamond Member
Feb 20, 2002
4,402
3,817
136
Originally posted by: KentState
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: KentState
Originally posted by: outriding

There was no warning for the Bombing of Oklahoma City. And yet FEMA was there under 12 hours. It took FEMA more than 10 times the amount of time to get to NO and it was a fricking hurricane!!!!
Pleae compare to events that where similiar. Just because they are two tragedies that involve FEMA, doesn't make them equal in errors of support or response time. Hell, when someone has a traffic accident, the police are there in 15 minutes. Maybe that should be the standard.
You're right. A Cat 5 hurricane hitting New Orleans should have been one of the highest priorities for the Feds. Too bad Chertoff sat on his ass waiting for the President to finish eating cake and playing guitar.


I don't see it as a high priority. That city is a total waste and should be washed under the sea.

So by your logic if the city is up to your standards then it will not recieve treatment. How do you determine what city is worthy?

Also no here has answered how can another country get better response from FEMA than we are getting from FEMA to a city in the US ???

 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Yet none of these things were done were they? Do you know how many lives would have been saved by doing those simple things? Can you explain to me why none of them were done?

Because the poor local govt couldnt afford to that is why! You cant expect the local govt to take care of its people. That is the job of the big brother nanny federal govt.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: Genx87
Like I said, Ill be awaiting for the congressional inquiry because relying the reporters for the facts in this mess is a pipe dream.
Like there's going to be an impartial, independent investigation. Give me a break. We've already seen the partisan BS the GOP pulled last week.
lmao I figure if they get equal numbers of people on the panel something good has to come of it.
That's a big *IF*

And dont act like partisanship hasnt happened on the democratic side.
Where have I done so?
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: KentState
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: KentState
Originally posted by: outriding

There was no warning for the Bombing of Oklahoma City. And yet FEMA was there under 12 hours. It took FEMA more than 10 times the amount of time to get to NO and it was a fricking hurricane!!!!
Pleae compare to events that where similiar. Just because they are two tragedies that involve FEMA, doesn't make them equal in errors of support or response time. Hell, when someone has a traffic accident, the police are there in 15 minutes. Maybe that should be the standard.
You're right. A Cat 5 hurricane hitting New Orleans should have been one of the highest priorities for the Feds. Too bad Chertoff sat on his ass waiting for the President to finish eating cake and playing guitar.
I don't see it as a high priority. That city is a total waste and should be washed under the sea.
Wow.


Just....wow.


:roll:
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: Genx87
Like I said, Ill be awaiting for the congressional inquiry because relying the reporters for the facts in this mess is a pipe dream.
Like there's going to be an impartial, independent investigation. Give me a break. We've already seen the partisan BS the GOP pulled last week.
lmao I figure if they get equal numbers of people on the panel something good has to come of it.
That's a big *IF*

And dont act like partisanship hasnt happened on the democratic side.
Where have I done so?

It requires a little faith in the system. I know that is hard to do in a day of 24 hour news where one hour you have facts that support your case and the next your case is destroyed and you want answers yesterday.

I dont believe I was pointing at you, although your attempts to steer the blame onto Bush and FEMA have been noted. I am talking about democratic senators threatening to punch the president, Jesse Jackson throwing out the race card, and the local govt taking no blame for the problems in this mess.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: Deudalus
Not updated in 40 years? That's not what has been reported up here.

Well let's see, I could spend a couple of days showing you all the corruption in New Orleans by local officials. All the theivery. All the money wasted by the Army Corp of Engineers.

The last storm that did this much damage to Louisiana was in the late 60's, thats near 40 years to realize that one would come again and we should prepare. Are you seriously going to argue that the Army Corp of Engineers prepared for this storm?
No. I've never said that. I'm trying to be realistic in the face of people leveling blame at Blanco and Nagin for the levees when they've inherited the mess that's been around for decades. It's a ridiculous thing to blame them for the levee breach, agreed?

As for why is it the feds' faults? Ummm...some words for you:

Mike Brown (Fired)

Michael Chertoff (Delayed response)
I'm not surprised he was fired. Someone has to take the fall over this debacle. It is very easy to blame the feds and of course the feds are going to go into damage control. But the point is, if the local and state officials had planned for this AT ALL nowhere near this many lives would have been lost.
I've fixed my post...it was missing the link to Chertoff's delays. And, they DID plan for it. They just didn't have the money nor the resources to physically remove every person from the city.

We've been over this ad nauseum. EVERYONE knew this storm was going to overwhelm state and local resources. That's why the Gov. even said so when she declared a state of emergency on Aug. 26 and wrote her letter to the President saying local/state resources would be overwhelmed.
What state and local resources?

The local resources that made no attemp to evacuate ANYONE from the city before the storm? The same local resources that didn't provide any food or water and instead locked people up in the Superdome for days?

Are you seriously trying to tell me the state and locals were on the ball here?
Nagin has said that food/water was at the Superdome to supply 2-3 days worth of food. He was expecting "the cavalry" within in that timeframe. Again, I point you back to his Meet The Press interview. You apparently didn't read it very well.

And, yes, there wasn't lawlessness at that point. So, why was FEMA preventing aid from going into the city?


Read and consider
There was almost 48 hours that New Orleans knew it was screwed before the storm hit. I know this because it was Saturday morning that I saw it was a very very strong storm and getting stronger and headed towards us. Furthermore, it was huge so there was really no way it could miss New Orleans.
Tell that to TrollsLikeChicken

Supercomputers aided the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration in accurately forecasting Hurricane Katrina's path. The storm devastated the coastal areas of Alabama, Louisiana and Mississippi.

"Two and a half to three days before the hurricane hit, we were pretty much zoomed in on the Louisiana/Mississippi Gulf Coast as where the hurricane would hit," said Jack Beven, a hurricane specialist at the NOAA Tropical Prediction Center. "It's probably not the most accurate we've been, but it's certainly pretty accurate."
Link to the Hurricane Scientists

At that point, the Mayor should have called for a mandatory evacuation. Instead, he waited another 28 hours. He should have also done 1 of 2 things. He should have either mobilized the city transit to evacuate people from the city. The people without transportation rally at bus stops everyday. All he would have had to do is have people go to those stops and the RTA city bus system could have removed them from the city. Or, he should have begun to stock up the Superdome, The Arena, and the Convention Center with food, water, and medical supplies. He could have had the National Guard which the governor supposedly activated 2 days earlier to go down there and stock up the dome on these needed supplies.

There was no lawlessness, violence, and obviously no flooding at that point. Could they not have done these things?

Yet none of these things were done were they? Do you know how many lives would have been saved by doing those simple things? Can you explain to me why none of them were done?
There aren't enough buses to evacuate 100,000-150,000 people in 36 hours. Just not going to happen. We saw how long it took to evacuate 30-40,000 from the Superdome and Conv. Center (5 days!) How are you going to get 3-4 times that number of people out in a day and a half, esp. considering they were scattered all over the city and not in one nice, concise spot.

As for the mandatory evacuation, it was issued 24 hrs ahead of landfall with an urgent plea from Nagin on Sat. for people to leave the city.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: Genx87
Like I said, Ill be awaiting for the congressional inquiry because relying the reporters for the facts in this mess is a pipe dream.
Like there's going to be an impartial, independent investigation. Give me a break. We've already seen the partisan BS the GOP pulled last week.
lmao I figure if they get equal numbers of people on the panel something good has to come of it.
That's a big *IF*

And dont act like partisanship hasnt happened on the democratic side.
Where have I done so?
It requires a little faith in the system. I know that is hard to do in a day of 24 hour news where one hour you have facts that support your case and the next your case is destroyed and you want answers yesterday.
The same faith that gave us the 9/11 Commission only after the President was dragged kicking and screaming and with a tight fist around the govt's wallet?

I dont believe I was pointing at you, although your attempts to steer the blame onto Bush and FEMA have been noted. I am talking about democratic senators threatening to punch the president, Jesse Jackson throwing out the race card, and the local govt taking no blame for the problems in this mess.
1) Landrieu's comments were certainly not to be taken seriously
2) I've criticized Jesse for getting involved
3) I don't see the local gov't taking no blame. Even Nagin has said he probably could have done some things better.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
The same faith that gave us the 9/11 Commission only after the President was dragged kicking and screaming and with a tight fist around the govt's wallet?

Your point? I dont think Clinton was lining up around the corner to open himself up to debate about his failures either.

But the job got done didnt it?

1) Landrieu's comments were certainly not to be taken seriously
A senator should be have enough self respect for the position afforded them to not make comments like that. But it gives you the mindset of the opposite side of the aisle.
2) I've criticized Jesse for getting involved

Good for you but that unfortunatly doesnt take it back and fix the harm it caused.

3) I don't see the local gov't taking no blame. Even Nagin has said he probably could have done some things better.

The only thing I have heard Nagin admit he did wrong was not swearing enough at the President. Again an elected official not having enough self respect for the position.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: Genx87
The same faith that gave us the 9/11 Commission only after the President was dragged kicking and screaming and with a tight fist around the govt's wallet?
Your point? I dont think Clinton was lining up around the corner to open himself up to debate about his failures either.

But the job got done didnt it?
The 9/11 Commission's job? Not completely. And, the Senate Investigative Committee still has that last phase of its job (the effect and pressure the WH put on the CIA re: Iraq intelligence)

1) Landrieu's comments were certainly not to be taken seriously
A senator should be have enough self respect for the position afforded them to not make comments like that. But it gives you the mindset of the opposite side of the aisle.
It gives you an idea of what a stressed person will say in the wake of such devastation as she saw.
2) I've criticized Jesse for getting involved
Good for you but that unfortunatly doesnt take it back and fix the harm it caused.
Harm? What harm? His photo-op is already forgotten

3) I don't see the local gov't taking no blame. Even Nagin has said he probably could have done some things better.
The only thing I have heard Nagin admit he did wrong was not swearing enough at the President. Again an elected official not having enough self respect for the position.
Then you need to at least read the transcript of Nagin on Meet The Press last Sunday.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
The 9/11 Commission's job? Not completely. And, the Senate Investigative Committee still has that last phase of its job (the effect and pressure the WH put on the CIA re: Iraq intelligence)

Like I said the wheels of the govt take time.

 

Deudalus

Golden Member
Jan 16, 2005
1,090
0
0
No. I've never said that. I'm trying to be realistic in the face of people leveling blame at Blanco and Nagin for the levees when they've inherited the mess that's been around for decades. It's a ridiculous thing to blame them for the levee breach, agreed?

I've never blamed Blanco or Nagin for the levees breaking.

However, they both deserve blame for things that they didn't do leading up to and after the storm.

I've fixed my post...it was missing the link to Chertoff's delays. And, they DID plan for it. They just didn't have the money nor the resources to physically remove every person from the city.

Are you telling me that with 3 days warning an ENTIRE STATE didn't have the resources to put food and water into the Superdome and Convention Center in New Orleans?

Really?

Nagin has said that food/water was at the Superdome to supply 2-3 days worth of food. He was expecting "the cavalry" within in that timeframe. Again, I point you back to his Meet The Press interview. You apparently didn't read it very well.

"He also opened the Louisiana Superdome as a shelter of last resort that would begin accepting people around Noon. He said the Dome would have few supplies and that people were expected to bring food and other necessary items. RTA buses were going to be sent to pick up those going to shelters at designated pickup points."

So basically, instead of bussing people out of the city. He bussed people to the Superdome where there was no food or water. Are you going to tell me in hindsight that was a good idea?

http://www.wwltv.com/local/stories/WWL082705nagin.b7724856.html

And, yes, there wasn't lawlessness at that point. So, why was FEMA preventing aid from going into the city?

There was lawlessness starting the day after the storm. A cop was shot in the head and helicopters trying to evacuate people were being shot at as well. That is why all of the civilian volunteers who brought their boats were not allowed into the city.

There was no lawlessness before the storm which is when people should have been evacuated.
 
Sep 12, 2004
16,852
59
86
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: Genx87
2) I've criticized Jesse for getting involved
Good for you but that unfortunatly doesnt take it back and fix the harm it caused.
Harm? What harm? His photo-op is already forgotten
On this point I actually agree with conjur. All Jackson (and Sharpton) did was to reinforce the widely held perception of them as race-baiters.

Oh, and it looks like, unsurprisingly, we can throw Farra-Con into that mix as well:

http://www.wcnc.com/news/topstories/sto...091205-ad-wcnc-farrakhan.4fb21767.html

He had harsh words for FEMA too. But that was just the warm up. Farrakhan also shared his thoughts on how the levee breached in the first place.
"I heard from a very reliable source who saw a 25 foot deep crater under the levee breach. It may have been blown up to destroy the black part of town and keep the white part dry," Farrakhan said.

Gilton Balanos lived in the very neighborhood Farrakhan was talking about.

"I think that's ludicrous," Balanos said. "When this happened we were caught by surprise. Individuals, the government and everybody were caught by surprise."
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: Deudalus
I've fixed my post...it was missing the link to Chertoff's delays. And, they DID plan for it. They just didn't have the money nor the resources to physically remove every person from the city.
Are you telling me that with 3 days warning an ENTIRE STATE didn't have the resources to put food and water into the Superdome and Convention Center in New Orleans?

Really?
Now it's 3 days? It wasn't until Sat. morning that the forecast had the eye passing over NOLA. And, the point of the Superdome and Convention Center are not for long-term shelters...they are temporary and last resorts. There were 7 trucks with MREs at the Superdome. From what I recall of storm coverage, people didn't start filling the Convention Center until AFTER the flooding started. The plan was for the Feds to be in with "the cavalry" within 2-3 days to help evacuate people and/or bring in relief.

Nagin has said that food/water was at the Superdome to supply 2-3 days worth of food. He was expecting "the cavalry" within in that timeframe. Again, I point you back to his Meet The Press interview. You apparently didn't read it very well.
"He also opened the Louisiana Superdome as a shelter of last resort that would begin accepting people around Noon. He said the Dome would have few supplies and that people were expected to bring food and other necessary items. RTA buses were going to be sent to pick up those going to shelters at designated pickup points."

So basically, instead of bussing people out of the city. He bussed people to the Superdome where there was no food or water. Are you going to tell me in hindsight that was a good idea?

http://www.wwltv.com/local/stories/WWL082705nagin.b7724856.html
First off, it's "bused", not "bussed". Second, the RTA buses couldn't have evacuated people out of the city. Where were they to go? There was no food/water on the buses. It would have been a one-way trip as there wasn't time to return for more. The safest procedure is putting people in the Dome (built to withstand 200mph winds and it held up well...only the outer covering being peeled off) and then getting them out after the storm passed.

And, yes, there wasn't lawlessness at that point. So, why was FEMA preventing aid from going into the city?
There was lawlessness starting the day after the storm. There was no lawlessness before the storm which is when people should have been evacuated.
And the "lawlessness" mostly involved people getting food/water/etc. There weren't roving gangs of armed gunmen on Monday after the storm passed.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: Genx87
The 9/11 Commission's job? Not completely. And, the Senate Investigative Committee still has that last phase of its job (the effect and pressure the WH put on the CIA re: Iraq intelligence)
Like I said the wheels of the govt take time.
Because they're square.
 

Deudalus

Golden Member
Jan 16, 2005
1,090
0
0
Now it's 3 days? It wasn't until Sat. morning that the forecast had the eye passing over NOLA.

It was well before Saturday morning that the local and state officials knew that the storm would be hitting New Orleans either directly or indirectly.

"Supercomputers aided the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration in accurately forecasting Hurricane Katrina's path. The storm devastated the coastal areas of Alabama, Louisiana and Mississippi.

"Two and a half to three days before the hurricane hit, we were pretty much zoomed in on the Louisiana/Mississippi Gulf Coast as where the hurricane would hit," said Jack Beven, a hurricane specialist at the NOAA Tropical Prediction Center. "It's probably not the most accurate we've been, but it's certainly pretty accurate."

You don't live here so I will explain:

1) We hear about a tropical storm coming off of the coast of Africa.
2) We are reminded of it daily on the news as to how it is developing.
3) When it becomes a tropic storm it is named
4) As it gets closer and closer to Cuba, we begin to take even more notice of it.
5) If it passes the southern tip of Florida and enters the coast, everyone in Louisiana goes and buys water, bread, and supplies in order to make it through said storm.
6) We wait til the storm is 3 or so days out to decide whether or not we evacuate or wait it out.

Now then, if your average citizen is made aware of all this information; how much and how early do you think the governor and mayor knew of this storm?

First off, it's "bused", not "bussed". Second, the RTA buses couldn't have evacuated people out of the city. Where were they to go? There was no food/water on the buses. It would have been a one-way trip as there wasn't time to return for more. The safest procedure is putting people in the Dome (built to withstand 200mph winds and it held up well...only the outer covering being peeled off) and then getting them out after the storm passed.

The Cajun Dome at ULL. The gym at LSU. Stopher Gym at Nicholls State.

There are a ton of places they could have sent people and every single one of them would have been far easier to supply due to the fact that they weren't hit by the storm, had power, and didn't have looting problems.

Furthermore, I could be wrong but I haven't read anywhere that The Dome was built to withstand 200 mph winds.

And the "lawlessness" mostly involved people getting food/water/etc. There weren't roving gangs of armed gunmen on Monday after the storm passed.

Sure, but a small group of knuckleheads can raise havoc. I don't believe anyone looting food, water, or clothes in that situation is acting criminally. However, anyone who shoots at rescue workers or rescue vehicles is and there was enough of that to hold out help.

And, the point of the Superdome and Convention Center are not for long-term shelters...they are temporary and last resorts. There were 7 trucks with MREs at the Superdome. From what I recall of storm coverage, people didn't start filling the Convention Center until AFTER the flooding started. The plan was for the Feds to be in with "the cavalry" within 2-3 days to help evacuate people and/or bring in relief.

In hindsight was it a good idea to expect the feds to bring in the cavalry 2-3 days later through a completely flooded city that just happens to be the most violent city in America? Or would it have maybe been a good idea to get people out ahead of time, or at least give them a day or two of provisions.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: Deudalus
Now it's 3 days? It wasn't until Sat. morning that the forecast had the eye passing over NOLA.
It was well before Saturday morning that the local and state officials knew that the storm would be hitting New Orleans either directly or indirectly.

"Supercomputers aided the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration in accurately forecasting Hurricane Katrina's path. The storm devastated the coastal areas of Alabama, Louisiana and Mississippi.

"Two and a half to three days before the hurricane hit, we were pretty much zoomed in on the Louisiana/Mississippi Gulf Coast as where the hurricane would hit," said Jack Beven, a hurricane specialist at the NOAA Tropical Prediction Center. "It's probably not the most accurate we've been, but it's certainly pretty accurate."

You don't live here so I will explain:

1) We hear about a tropical storm coming off of the coast of Africa.
2) We are reminded of it daily on the news as to how it is developing.
3) When it becomes a tropic storm it is named
4) As it gets closer and closer to Cuba, we begin to take even more notice of it.
5) If it passes the southern tip of Florida and enters the coast, everyone in Louisiana goes and buys water, bread, and supplies in order to make it through said storm.
6) We wait til the storm is 3 or so days out to decide whether or not we evacuate or wait it out.

Now then, if your average citizen is made aware of all this information; how much and how early do you think the governor and mayor knew of this storm?
Ok, so, now an "indirect hit" is grounds for a mandatory evacuation? :roll:


First off, it's "bused", not "bussed". Second, the RTA buses couldn't have evacuated people out of the city. Where were they to go? There was no food/water on the buses. It would have been a one-way trip as there wasn't time to return for more. The safest procedure is putting people in the Dome (built to withstand 200mph winds and it held up well...only the outer covering being peeled off) and then getting them out after the storm passed.
The Cajun Dome at ULL. The gym at LSU. Stopher Gym at Nicholls State.

There are a ton of places they could have sent people and every single one of them would have been far easier to supply due to the fact that they weren't hit by the storm, had power, and didn't have looting problems.

Furthermore, I could be wrong but I haven't read anywhere that The Dome was built to withstand 200 mph winds.
<ahem>

http://architecture.about.com/od/domes/f/superdome.htm
The Louisiana Superdome was designed to resist winds up to 200 miles per hour. However, in August 2005, Hurricane Katrina's 145 mph winds blew away two sections of Superdome roof while more than 10,000 people sought shelter inside. Governor Kathleen Blanco later told news reporters that an engineer has inspected the damage. Although the roof requires repair, the Superdome remains structurally sound.

As far as the buses, how were they supposed to get 100,000-150,000 people out in 36 hours? You keep avoiding that. It took FIVE DAYS to get 30,000 or so out of the city when they were all in one nice, concise area. And you're telling me you're going to get 100,000-150,000 people who are spread out all over the city and do it in 36 hours?

And the "lawlessness" mostly involved people getting food/water/etc. There weren't roving gangs of armed gunmen on Monday after the storm passed.
Sure, but a small group of knuckleheads can raise havoc. I don't believe anyone looting food, water, or clothes in that situation is acting criminally. However, anyone who shoots at rescue workers or rescue vehicles is and there was enough of that to hold out help.
They can't outdo the US military and LA National Guard.

And, the point of the Superdome and Convention Center are not for long-term shelters...they are temporary and last resorts. There were 7 trucks with MREs at the Superdome. From what I recall of storm coverage, people didn't start filling the Convention Center until AFTER the flooding started. The plan was for the Feds to be in with "the cavalry" within 2-3 days to help evacuate people and/or bring in relief.
In hindsight was it a good idea to expect the feds to bring in the cavalry 2-3 days later through a completely flooded city that just happens to be the most violent city in America? Or would it have maybe been a good idea to get people out ahead of time, or at least give them a day or two of provisions.
Again, I point to my above questions.
 

Deudalus

Golden Member
Jan 16, 2005
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Ok, so, now an "indirect hit" is grounds for a mandatory evacuation?

For someone with 52,000 posts that would seem to be following the news very closely, especially this hurricane katrina catastrophe, I thought you would have at least heard by now that this WAS an indirect hit.

But you and your armchair quarterbacking mixed with a partisan agenda doesn't even know the basic facts of what you are ranting about.

http://ngs.woc.noaa.gov/katrina/KATRINA0000.HTM

Please allow me to educate you so at least you know what you are talking about while you are blaming Bush. Hurricane facts:

1) The East side of the eye is much worse than the west. Due to it spinng counterclockwise east winds would push water up the Mississippi River and into New Orleans along with water from the Gulf of Mexico and low lying marshlands. New Orleans was 30+ miles to the west of where the eye hit.

2) The Northeast side of the eye is the worst specifically. It generates the most wind, the most rain, and tornados.

3) The Western side is the weakest side. That is the side where the feeder bands weaken, where there is less rain, and much less of a chance of tornados. Plus the western side pushes water south. In the case of New Orleans it pushed water from Lake Ponchatrain south into New Orleans which compared with pushing water north from the river and Gulf of Mexico is much much less catastrophic.

4) For every mile away from the eye you are, you recieve far far less wind strength. There is a science in this which I'm trying to look up but the basic gist of it is this. The difference in destructive capability of 40 mph to 50 mph is far less than the destructive capability of wind strength going from 150-160 mph.

Thus, had this storm hit 40-50 miles west as they thought it would, we wouldn't have to argue about how poor relief planning was because there would be no one that survived it.


This is why anyone living east of where the eye hit in Louisiana has basically got to start all over. I have several friends that live in Chalmette that caught the eastern part of the eye and they still to this day have 20+ feet of water where their homes are.

New Orleans remained largely dry even through the levees breaking. The Garden District didn't flood nor did the French Quarter to speak of. If New Orleans would have caught the eastern side New Orleans would have likely had 30 feet or more of water.

The levees would not have broken 2 days later, they would have been overrun during the storm by several feet of water which not only put more water into the city, it would have completely washed away the levee. Not a 300 yard long hole in the levee, the levee would be gone completely.

http://architecture.about.com/od/domes/f/superdome.htm

Overtime everything weakens first of all. Second of all, if it was built to withstand 200 mile per hour winds then how did 145 mile per hour winds rip off part of the roof? The fact is they guesstimate that it will stand 200, but seeing how well it withstood 145 I'm not convinced.



After all of your rantings about this hurricane and faulting Bush and whatnot, I find it particularly sad that you don't even know the basics of this particular storm, of hurricanes in general, or of where this hurricane actually went.

You're pretty sad Conjur. I've lost what little respect I ever had for you.

Ya know its one thing when you at least know the facts but your brain distorts them with an agenda. Alot of people have that problem.

But you are ignorant of the facts, oblivious to this problem of yours, and apparently don't even care as long as you can continue to rant like some internet Jimmy Swaggert trying to get your message out to the masses.

Truly pathetic.