Load bearing wall or not? Contractors disagree

[Mr.IncrediblyBored]

With 40 years in the profession, I second this.
And if your contractor thinks the closet wall is a bearing wall, find another contractor, fast.

Aside from this, they had the best bid. As Greenman said I plan to follow my engineer's rec, but maybe this is a red flag the contractor will look for things to charge for.

Here's what the truss looks like. The webbing is probably off as it's from memory and the crap pics I took. The closet has a typical 8' level ceiling between the blue and red lines in the pic.

 

[skull]

I think the crazy webbing is just supporting the vaulted ceiling from above which may be enough to hold it without the wall. I see this alot up in attics when I'm running wire and duct work, the support for vaulted ceiling and skylights is an after thought and is just a cobbled together mess. The supports holding the vaulted ceiling to the trusses alone may be enough. Just an odd angle with the flat spot in the closets I highly doubt it'll come crashing down if you take the closet wall out but may sag over time.

 

[Red Squirrel]

Odd that they did not use the same design on both sides. The right side is how it normally should be. But if you look at my pic of the inside of that church in post #14 it looks like it's similar to the left side and they have no support under the straight part.

 

[extide]

This is an upstairs room right? What do the walls look like on the floor below? If that closet wall is load bearing I would expect there to be a load bearing wall directly underneath it on the floor below as well.


My guess would be that it is not load bearing.

 

[Mr.IncrediblyBored]

I think the crazy webbing is just supporting the vaulted ceiling from above which may be enough to hold it without the wall. I see this alot up in attics when I'm running wire and duct work, the support for vaulted ceiling and skylights is an after thought and is just a cobbled together mess. The supports holding the vaulted ceiling to the trusses alone may be enough. Just an odd angle with the flat spot in the closets I highly doubt it'll come crashing down if you take the closet wall out but may sag over time.

That's basically how trusses work. The webbing makes it strong and light allowing them to span long distances unsupported. The odd placement of the webbing is because the vault isn't centered under the roof and the weight has to be distributed evenly on the exterior walls.

The vault (inverted V) ends at the closet on one end, and the exterior wall on the other end. It's symmetrical when you are standing in the middle of the bedroom.

 

[Mr.IncrediblyBored]

This is an upstairs room right? What do the walls look like on the floor below? If that closet wall is load bearing I would expect there to be a load bearing wall directly underneath it on the floor below as well.

My guess would be that it is not load bearing.

Yeah, second floor. Under it is the kitchen.

 

[Micrornd]

Odd that they did not use the same design on both sides. The right side is how it normally should be. But if you look at my pic of the inside of that church in post #14 it looks like it's similar to the left side and they have no support under the straight part.

The OP's truss is a simple scissors truss design.
The flat on the bottom chord could be simply to support the closet ceiling.
It also could have been designed without it and the closet ceiling "stick-framed" with joists.
The way it was done was both cheaper and quicker (and just as safe and effective).

If you look at the "attic-right" photos, you can see that the other end of the truss is similar in that it has a vertical chord in the same location, not as in the drawing.

The asymmetry in the chord design could be from any number of variables - predominate wind load, predominate snow load, hanging loads (ceilings), chord spacing to allow ductwork, it goes on and on.
All those things and more are factors in modern prefab truss design (and there are also "standard" designs that can be used based on engineered limitations).
These days truss design is done with expensive software (and hopefully common sense), rather than calculators, in most larger truss fabs..

Since this is the upper story, I 'd be interested in the overhang and the distance from the soffit to the top of the windows.
That would help tell whether those outer vertical chords bear on the exterior wall or not.

 

[JEDIYoda]

So lets say the OP takes your advice and finds out the hard way that this was truly a load bearing wall.
Who here is going to stand up and take ownership and pay for the damages?? In othrrt wordsw -- put your money where your opinions are....

I can hear it now -
Officer this is a real mess, ruined my whole house!
Officer -- Who told you it was not a load bearing wall?
MrIncrediblybored -- The engineers at ATOT told me it was not a load bearing wall!!
Officer - what kind of engineers were they?
MrIncrediblybored -- well, none of them actually said! But a lot of them had many years of experience.....

 

[Greenman]

What the heck....go for it! What could go wrong? It`s just a wall...….easy to replace if your wrong! After all you have the help of the ATOT engineers...….there is not a diner group of loser….errr engineers on the internet!!
When the house collapses don`t forget to post pictures!!

Other than being a licensed building contractor for 33 years, and building in the heart of earthquake country, and dealing with engineered structures every day, your right, I don't know much about it.

 

[Greenman]

So lets say the OP takes your advice and finds out the hard way that this was truly a load bearing wall.
Who here is going to stand up and take ownership and pay for the damages?? In othrrt wordsw -- put your money where your opinions are....

I can hear it now -
Officer this is a real mess, ruined my whole house!
Officer -- Who told you it was not a load bearing wall?
MrIncrediblybored -- The engineers at ATOT told me it was not a load bearing wall!!
Officer - what kind of engineers were they?
MrIncrediblybored -- well, none of them actually said! But a lot of them had many years of experience.....

You're simply blowing smoke at this point. First of all, the police wouldn't be involved in a structural failure. Second, an engineer designed the alterations, and said it wasn't a load bearing wall. Do you understand that? An engineer, with a degree, a licence, and insurance, said it was a NON BEARING WALL. The entire question starts and stops with that sentence.
If he's wrong, and the trusses fail, his insurance pays for everything. All of the construction documents will have his name, licence number, and signature on them. If he had any doubt at all he would spend any amount of the OP's money necessary to insure that it won't fail, and get paid for doing it.

 

[mxnerd]

Aside from this, they had the best bid. As Greenman said I plan to follow my engineer's rec, but maybe this is a red flag the contractor will look for things to charge for.

Here's what the truss looks like. The webbing is probably off as it's from memory and the crap pics I took. The closet has a typical 8' level ceiling between the blue and red lines in the pic.

It makes sense now. The pic is much clearer than your photos. So it's a scissors truss design that clear spans, it looks crappy in the photos because it's off center and not symmetrical.

Have to agree with most people (including engineers) here it's not a load bearing wall.

 

[Micrornd]

JEDIYoda,
Allow me to apologize.
"I'm truly sorry if I stepped on your e-peen in this or another group, but perhaps if it wasn't so long, people wouldn't trip over it."

 

[Greenman]

JEDIYoda,
Allow me to apologize.
"I'm truly sorry if I stepped on your e-peen in this or another group, but perhaps if it wasn't so long, people wouldn't trip over it."

I was trying to be a bit more diplomatic, as I don't want H&G to become P&N. No one should ever be concerned that they're asking a stupid question in here. But the other side of that is that there is some expertise around here.

 

[JEDIYoda]

You're simply blowing smoke at this point. First of all, the police wouldn't be involved in a structural failure. Second, an engineer designed the alterations, and said it wasn't a load bearing wall. Do you understand that? An engineer, with a degree, a licence, and insurance, said it was a NON BEARING WALL. The entire question starts and stops with that sentence.
If he's wrong, and the trusses fail, his insurance pays for everything. All of the construction documents will have his name, licence number, and signature on them. If he had any doubt at all he would spend any amount of the OP's money necessary to insure that it won't fail, and get paid for doing it.

Then what is the issue? Why ask ATOT for an opinion??
Second of all your taking this way to seriously -- duh...of course the Police wouldn`t be involved....did I say Police?
No-- I said officer -- so lets see officer of what -- his insurance company.....hmmmm
Then this thread should never had been posted, if he knew in the first place!!

 

[Greenman]

Then what is the issue? Why ask ATOT for an opinion??
Second of all your taking this way to seriously -- duh...of course the Police wouldn`t be involved....did I say Police?
No-- I said officer -- so lets see officer of what -- his insurance company.....hmmmm
Then this thread should never had been posted, if he knew in the first place!!

The OP had a concern, he was given another prospective on the issue by a few fellows with more experience in the field. I'm sorry if that doesn't meet your requirements for a proper thread.

 

[skull]

That's basically how trusses work. The webbing makes it strong and light allowing them to span long distances unsupported. The odd placement of the webbing is because the vault isn't centered under the roof and the weight has to be distributed evenly on the exterior walls.

The vault (inverted V) ends at the closet on one end, and the exterior wall on the other end. It's symmetrical when you are standing in the middle of the bedroom.

I understand the webbing in a tradition sense or like the one red squirrel posted earlier in the thread. I just never thought of the vaulted ceilings like yours as part of a truss because they look like a drunk carpenter threw it together with scrap from the dumpster.

 

[Mr.IncrediblyBored]

I understand the webbing in a tradition sense or like the one red squirrel posted earlier in the thread. I just never thought of the vaulted ceilings like yours as part of a truss because they look like a drunk carpenter threw it together with scrap from the dumpster.

True. That thought has crossed my mind. Most trusses actually look engineered. These look like somebody drew them up in the dirt on the job site.

Not sure what's up Yoda's ass. Why post any question in H&G if the answer is always just "call a professional".

 

[Micrornd]

Most trusses actually look engineered. These look like somebody drew them up in the dirt on the job site.

I think you're confusing the trusses with the "stick" framing done by the contractor to attach the ceiling to the trusses.
The engineered trusses are only the ones with the perforated silver "joiner" plates on them, every thing else was added by the original contractor to hang the cathedral ceiling.
And yes that part looks, shall we say, quite less than professional.
The actual trusses themselves look to be made to industry specs from what your pictures show, as far as size and placement of joiner plates, chord placement, sizing and spacing.

The mix of insulation types and the pvc pipe with the upsidedown plumbing hangers is also interesting

 

[BoomerD]

True. That thought has crossed my mind. Most trusses actually look engineered. These look like somebody drew them up in the dirt on the job site.

Not sure what's up Yoda's ass. Why post any question in H&G if the answer is always just "call a professional".

MOST threads here don't need a professional answer...but this...kind of does...IMO, fucking with a potential load bearing wall could have disasteous consequences if the OP gets it wrong.

 

[mxnerd]

The engineered trusses are only the ones with the perforated silver "joiner" plates on them

Just curious, why would not stick framing workers use same kind of perforated plates?

 

[herm0016]

Just curious, why would not stick framing workers use same kind of perforated plates?

because you really need a hydraulic press to properly seat them. very easy when you have the truss built on a big table with jigs, not so easy hanging from the top of a building.

 

[Mr.IncrediblyBored]

MOST threads here don't need a professional answer...but this...kind of does...IMO, fucking with a potential load bearing wall could have disasteous consequences if the OP gets it wrong.

No disagreement here. I mentioned in the OP that I was consulting with an engineer. There are also experienced people here that could provide some input as well, so I thought it would make for interesting discussion.

 

[skull]

because you really need a hydraulic press to properly seat them. very easy when you have the truss built on a big table with jigs, not so easy hanging from the top of a building.

Interesting one job I've been working on with an addition. The carpenter stick built the engineered trusses because he couldn't bring a crane in. He just nailed in those plates. He did a terrible job of it too, most of them are more on one side than the other or hanging off because they're not center. Passed framing inspection though.

 

[Red Squirrel]

When I did my shed trusses I just used plywood and screws. Downside with that is it's not flush, so in some situations it can get in the way, you have to plan a bit in advance to make sure it won't.



If I was building a house I would do rafters though. Trusses are great if you have a crane and multiple people, but if alone, rafters are easier. Even the trusses were a bit tricky to line up right. Mine ended up a bit crooked. Looks fine from the street.

 

[Greenman]

Interesting one job I've been working on with an addition. The carpenter stick built the engineered trusses because he couldn't bring a crane in. He just nailed in those plates. He did a terrible job of it too, most of them are more on one side than the other or hanging off because they're not center. Passed framing inspection though.

I'd be more than a little concerned about those connections. The engineer approved this method?