Llano - when will we start seeing reviews?

[Idontcare]

Maybe some kind of x86 and ARM hybrid wherein the ARM side is used when the work load is low enough? Wild speculation i know

I think you would need to be operating in a ridiculously power-sensitive application for there to be a commercial advantage to bootstrapping an ARM core onto an x86-compatible system versus just enabling that x86 system to have silly low-power states akin to speedstep.

If such a market arose then I think you'd see both Intel and AMD approach the marketspace by way of heterogeneous coupling of their existing x86 cores.

A Bulldozer+bobcat concoction, and a Sandy+Atom hybrid...where the higher-performing cores were entirely power-gated to the off-position while the lower performing, but still x86-compatible, cores were powered up to take over.

Adding ARM to the equation seems needless in every practical scenario I can come up with. The cases where I can see ARM being reasonable I see no need whatsoever for x86 to be present, and vice-versa.

 

[ncalipari]

I think you would need to be operating in a ridiculously power-sensitive application for there to be a commercial advantage to bootstrapping an ARM core onto an x86-compatible system versus just enabling that x86 system to have silly low-power states akin to speedstep.

If such a market arose then I think you'd see both Intel and AMD approach the marketspace by way of heterogeneous coupling of their existing x86 cores.

A Bulldozer+bobcat concoction, and a Sandy+Atom hybrid...where the higher-performing cores were entirely power-gated to the off-position while the lower performing, but still x86-compatible, cores were powered up to take over.

Adding ARM to the equation seems needless in every practical scenario I can come up with. The cases where I can see ARM being reasonable I see no need whatsoever for x86 to be present, and vice-versa.

Well many server remote controller card are just this: An ARM SOC over PCI, to provide greater control over the server.

 

[wahdangun]

I doubt we'll see this done with Llano, and I think with Bulldozer based APU they'll probably be moving to DDR4, which should make needing GDDR5 unnecessary (they could just add a dedicated graphics DDR4 slot).

I guess it will depend on how aggressive AMD is. Might be a good idea for them to try to implement a new graphics memory slot.

using GDDR4 is a waste thats why AMD didn't use it anymore after HD 3870 (heck even several model HD 3870 use high clocked GDDR3 memory),

well they'd have to add a ddr5 controller to the llano chip (one ddr3 for regular ram, and a gddr5 controller JUST For this option). and then they'd have to add extra pins for that , etc.

and the boards with GDDR5 (say 512MB of it) would obviously have to cost more for the memory.

even boards without ram woudl cost more becuase the chips would have to be more complex. on top of that sideport did not really help the 78x series IGPs that much to begin with. its a 64-bit sideport, vs 128-bit system ram.

the graphic core that Llano use actually already have GDDR5 memory controller in it, unless AMD decide to remove it. btw 78X IGP didn't have bandwidth limitation like Llano, and if it was so complex and expensive to add memory on board then why I have seeing 790G with GDDR3 memory so cheap, they even priced sub $100 price range

Yeah a backplate that's connected with some large cooler. Not exactly the same as having to be cooled passively in a stuffed case with dozens of cables hanging around.


Just having faster memory with a slow IGP still won't be especially useful as a gaming laptop (and I'd think when designing the llano IGP the engineers tried to hit a good balance) and as soon as you have a external GPU that has enough power you get the memory anyways.


Because they already have the design for those cards and buy GDDR in masses. They don't need two different memory controllers (and have to design one first).

Also the thing about MB manufacterers is that their profit margins are extremely slim and there's a whole lot competition out there. All in all that'd be a whole lot of designing, testing and whatnot for a premium product (goodbye economies of scale) that'll overlap with external GPUs quite heavily (and should have worse performance since you'd still have to factor in all the transfer times). For a budget product like Llano? How many 250+$ MBs do you think we'll see for that CPU?

1. no just see the backplate ! did you see any huge cooler in it ?

2. its not slow IGP, its have same power as HD 5570 thats mean you can throw any new games in it @1024P resolution @ medium or high setting, and thats why I want GDDR5 on it so it can unleash its full potential to be a powerful and slim gaming laptop, or a very light weight lan party rig.

3. if they decided to produce this, its for sure they will buy the GDDR5 memory in the bulk, and btw the graphic core they used in this Llano already have GDDR5 memory controller in it.

4.if that so then why Alienware "netbook gaming" sell so well ? do you think there are no market for ultra slim and lightweight gaming PC/Laptop ? and with great battery life?

please guys, you all buy $400 motherboard and no one complaint about it. in fact they sell quite well so I'm not understand why make "premium" Llano flop ?

 

[darkswordsman17]

using GDDR4 is a waste thats why AMD didn't use it anymore after HD 3870 (heck even several model HD 3870 use high clocked GDDR3 memory),

Not GDDR4, DDR4.

 

[Vesku]

I don't think we will see much in the way of external GDDR memory paired with these APUs but I can definitely see high speed memory being added on die. Similar to how consoles pair their graphics with a small capacity but very high speed memory cache.

 

[Phynaz]

They already have caches, they just don't advertise the fact.

 

[Vesku]

Somehow I don't think Llano has the "10 MB eDRAM daughter-die" of the XBox 360.

 

[Voo]

1. no just see the backplate ! did you see any huge cooler in it ?

So there's no cooler on the other side of that card? Interesting.

2. its not slow IGP, its have same power as HD 5570 thats mean you can throw any new games in it @1024P resolution @ medium or high setting, and thats why I want GDDR5 on it so it can unleash its full potential to be a powerful and slim gaming laptop, or a very light weight lan party rig.

That would still assume that the IGP is completely bottlenecked by memory bandwidth and a horribly unbalanced design at that. Assuming that AMD engineers are not completely useless (and that'd be a surprise) that's quite the claim.

3. if they decided to produce this, its for sure they will buy the GDDR5 memory in the bulk, and btw the graphic core they used in this Llano already have GDDR5 memory controller in it.

Wait, they include complex logic on die that's completely useless and can only cause problems (and lower yield rates) although they had to redesign a good bit anyways? Any sources for that claim?
Also no, no MB manufacterer will ever be able to buy anywhere near the amount of GDDR Amd/Nvidia buy (after all they can use it for all their cards)

4.if that so then why Alienware "netbook gaming" sell so well ? do you think there are no market for ultra slim and lightweight gaming PC/Laptop ? and with great battery life?

Define "well". There's also a niche for gaming laptops with SLI highend mobile cards, but I doubt that the complete market for either of those is more than maybe 1% of all notebook sales.
And then there's the competition with a external switchable GPU out there.

please guys, you all buy $400 motherboard and no one complaint about it. in fact they sell quite well so I'm not understand why make "premium" Llano flop ?

Wait, you're buying 400$ MBs (never even thought about paying that much for a MB xX) for a budget chip that'll surely sell in the <<200$ range?

 

[wahdangun]

So there's no cooler on the other side of that card? Interesting.


That would still assume that the IGP is completely bottlenecked by memory bandwidth and a horribly unbalanced design at that. Assuming that AMD engineers are not completely useless (and that'd be a surprise) that's quite the claim.


Wait, they include complex logic on die that's completely useless and can only cause problems (and lower yield rates) although they had to redesign a good bit anyways? Any sources for that claim?
Also no, no MB manufacterer will ever be able to buy anywhere near the amount of GDDR Amd/Nvidia buy (after all they can use it for all their cards)


Define "well". There's also a niche for gaming laptops with SLI highend mobile cards, but I doubt that the complete market for either of those is more than maybe 1% of all notebook sales.
And then there's the competition with a external switchable GPU out there.


Wait, you're buying 400$ MBs (never even thought about paying that much for a MB xX) for a budget chip that'll surely sell in the <<200$ range?

1. I said BACKplate, to be more clear here I give you the back of the HD 6450, its naked, and don't use anything to cool the GDDR5 memory

2. its is bottlenecked, heck even HD 5550 have lower performance despite having identical speck except the HD 5550 use GDDR3

3.its the AIB that buy GDDR memory not AMD or NVDIA they just produce GPU for AIB partner

4. but you must use the crappy intel GPU if you want to travel so no chance of playing games, with Llano at least you can gaming or held lan party where ever you want, and since the GPU was on CPU, it will make the laptop more slim and light weight not bulky, heavy and only 10 minute battery ife.

5 like I said its not necessary budget build, I expect the "premium" Llano with GDDR5 memory will end up sub $300, it will be great for my lanparty rig,

 

[Dribble]

5 like I said its not necessary budget build, I expect the "premium" Llano with GDDR5 memory will end up sub $300, it will be great for my lanparty rig,

This is silly talk - you'll not get a llano with GDDR memory. It's a cheap cpu, it uses normal DDR memory. It would be hard to designing a cpu to use GDDR memory. It would also be non standard, i.e. expensive, it's never going to happen. Equally adding a separate memory bus for the onboard gpu with it's own GDDR memory is just as unlikely. It would be very expensive and a bit pointless - if you are going to all that hassle just use a discrete card in the first place.

LLano's gpu is just stuck sharing DDR3 with the cpu, it will be slow - not as slow as the integrated gpu's that had to go via pci-e bus to access memory (although they also had some faster local memory to offset that) - but still slow.

 

[Vette73]

This is silly talk - you'll not get a llano with GDDR memory. It's a cheap cpu, it uses normal DDR memory. It would be hard to designing a cpu to use GDDR memory. It would also be non standard, i.e. expensive, it's never going to happen. Equally adding a separate memory bus for the onboard gpu with it's own GDDR memory is just as unlikely. It would be very expensive and a bit pointless - if you are going to all that hassle just use a discrete card in the first place.

LLano's gpu is just stuck sharing DDR3 with the cpu, it will be slow - not as slow as the integrated gpu's that had to go via pci-e bus to access memory (although they also had some faster local memory to offset that) - but still slow.

I would also agree if it was not for the sideport memory AMD did with its IGP. Seems AMD already knows how to do this and make it work. I can't remember but I thiought there was about a 5-10% increase in performance with that.
Adding a side port bus in the next Gen Llano would not be hard and memory is pretty cheap so even a 256mb GDDR5 would make a hugh differance in performance for higher end Llano chips.

 

[wahdangun]

This is silly talk - you'll not get a llano with GDDR memory. It's a cheap cpu, it uses normal DDR memory. It would be hard to designing a cpu to use GDDR memory. It would also be non standard, i.e. expensive, it's never going to happen. Equally adding a separate memory bus for the onboard gpu with it's own GDDR memory is just as unlikely. It would be very expensive and a bit pointless - if you are going to all that hassle just use a discrete card in the first place.

LLano's gpu is just stuck sharing DDR3 with the cpu, it will be slow - not as slow as the integrated gpu's that had to go via pci-e bus to access memory (although they also had some faster local memory to offset that) - but still slow.

AMD already do that with their 790G/890G chip set that use GDDR3 memory, and some AIB priced them sub $100. and discrete graphic defeat the purpose if Llano, because it will Add heat. more complex cooling and lowering battery life on laptop

I would also agree if it was not for the sideport memory AMD did with its IGP. Seems AMD already knows how to do this and make it work. I can't remember but I thiought there was about a 5-10% increase in performance with that.
Adding a side port bus in the next Gen Llano would not be hard and memory is pretty cheap so even a 256mb GDDR5 would make a hugh differance in performance for higher end Llano chips.

yup, sideport memory make 790G have identical performance to HD 3450, I have it in the past and I can even overclock it to 900 mhz. I;m still remember my friend jaw dropped when I show it play crysis at lower setting, and it make a great lanparty rig for TF2 that I play with my friend in that time.

 

[Dribble]

AMD already do that with their 790G/890G chip set that use GDDR3 memory, and some AIB priced them sub $100. and discrete graphic defeat the purpose if Llano, because it will Add heat. more complex cooling and lowering battery life on laptop

That's because it's using onboard graphics. AMD could have easily provided onboard graphics of a similar or even higher performance to llano with it's own GDDR memory (marketed as "side port" in 790/890) but the whole point of llano is to do away with onboard - why do you think that is? It is because onboard requires a load of extra complexity and chips for graphics/gpu memory/etc. To stay competitive with Intel who have already done this, AMD have taken all that away with llano, they've made it much simpler - no separate graphics or memory or anything. This makes the motherboard very simple and hence cheap to make, that is the whole point of this exercise.

Now what your discussing requires them to make it complex - you'd need a whole lot of extra pins on the cpu for this extra GDDR memory bus, a second memory controller in the cpu for GDDR, the routing/power/etc to the GDDR and the chips themselves. All of that is expensive, it defeats the whole purpose of llano and would mean they wouldn't be able to compete with Intel.

 

[piesquared]

That's because it's using onboard graphics. AMD could have easily provided onboard graphics of a similar or even higher performance to llano with it's own GDDR memory (marketed as "side port" in 790/890) but the whole point of llano is to do away with onboard - why do you think that is? It is because onboard requires a load of extra complexity and chips for graphics/gpu memory/etc. To stay competitive with Intel who have already done this, AMD have taken all that away with llano, they've made it much simpler - no separate graphics or memory or anything. This makes the motherboard very simple and hence cheap to make, that is the whole point of this exercise.

Now what your discussing requires them to make it complex - you'd need a whole lot of extra pins on the cpu for this extra GDDR memory bus, a second memory controller in the cpu for GDDR, the routing/power/etc to the GDDR and the chips themselves. All of that is expensive, it defeats the whole purpose of llano and would mean they wouldn't be able to compete with Intel.

Llano isn't just about putting a gpu next to the cpu to play games. not by a long shot. that goes for the whole Fusion ecosystem and strategy. look at the names and sessions at AFDS for example.

 

[ElFenix]

Llano isn't just about putting a gpu next to the cpu to play games. not by a long shot. that goes for the whole Fusion ecosystem and strategy. look at the names and sessions at AFDS for example.

well, no, but i think it will enable thin notebooks to play games better than they have been. not much graphic power needed to push 1366x768.

 

[darkswordsman17]

well, no, but i think it will enable thin notebooks to play games better than they have been. not much graphic power needed to push 1366x768.

Yeah, there's plenty of games that it can handle that would be worth playing (Left 4 Dead, Portal; actually just about all of Valve's games, plus WoW and probably even Diablo III). Plus, it can provide casual game makers some room to improve graphics/performance. I think we're going to see a lot more "tiers" in gaming. It'd be nice if companies start releasing ports of their old games like Sega has. This would allow more recent consoles like Dreamcast/PS2/Xbox/GC/Wii games to be ported over.

 

[frostedflakes]

Looks like someone broke NDA.

http://www.legitreviews.com/news/10565/

A YouTube user from Ukraine has posted up several videos of AMD's upcoming Llano notebook platform that are worth a look at before they possibly get pulled down. The video compares an AMD Accelerated quad-core processor A8-3510MX with AMD Radeon HD 6620M graphics to an Intel Core i7-2600 'Sandy Bridge' processor with Intel HD 3000 graphics and shows that Llano performs better.

Keep in mind that the The Llano processor features a clock speed of 1.8GHz with turbo up to 2.5GHz which is much lower than the clock speed of the 2600K, which runs at 3.4GHz and turbos up to 3.8GHz. The video shows the Intel system running a GPU benchmark at 3.99 FPS while the Llano chip runs at 19.21 FPS. You can check out the demonstration video for yourself below.

Article incorrectly reports the i7-2600 as having HD 3000 when it actually uses the weaker HD 2000. So parts using HD 3000 (the desktop K series processors and all mobile Sandy Bridge) should perform better relative to the A8-3510MX, although will probably still be quite a ways behind it. If this is legit looks like 45W mobile Sandy Bridge parts might have roughly 1/3 to 1/2 the GPU performance of the A8-3510MX. Of course on the CPU side it will be no contest for Intel I'm sure. So no clear winner, as with most other things it will just depend on what you want to do with the system.

Definitely can't wait to see full reviews from AnandTech and other sites.

edit: And looks like some of the videos were posted on page 3. Unfortunately they're gone now, though, and this article summarizes some of the results.

 

[RobertPters77]

@frostedflakes
Does anyone have a backup?

And Amd has no rights to pull someones video from youtube. The copyright claim is bogus. The user may have singed an NDA but the youtube account did not!

As an Amd shareholder I demand to be informed of future projects which may affect my stake and fortunes in the company!

 

[Idontcare]

As an Amd shareholder I demand to be informed of future projects which may affect my stake and fortunes in the company!

For real? Even if the very act of making you be aware of the future projects results in enabling the competition to respond all the faster to those plans which then results in lowering the fortunes of the very company you have a stake in?

Does not compute.

Looking at Apple's information restriction policies and shareholder value, I guess they are doing it wrong. :hmm:

 

[frostedflakes]

Maybe, but posting stuff like that while under NDA is a pretty big deal too. Can't blame AMD for trying to get the vids pulled by filing DMCA notices, but ultimately it's pointless, once something like this gets posted to the net it tends to propagate and there's not much you can do to stop it. I don't have any links, but I'm sure it's been mirrored on other sites by now, someone else might have links to the videos.

 

[jimbo75]

It's not exactly news anyway. It would have been news if SB got close to it.

 

[Idontcare]

Maybe, but posting stuff like that while under NDA is a pretty big deal too. Can't blame AMD for trying to get the vids pulled by filing DMCA notices, but ultimately it's pointless, once something like this gets posted to the net it tends to propagate and there's nothing you can do to stop it. I don't have any links, but I'm sure it's been mirrored on other sites by now, someone else might have links to the videos.

Regardless, without price and power-consumption there is no way for any of us to really use the data to make anything close to an informed decision about a possible Llano purchase anyways.

Retail performance, price, and battery life (or power-consumption).

Without all three we got nothing but the pots in our kitchen to piss in.

 

[frostedflakes]

Well never claimed we could. Just saw that on another forum and remembered this thread here with people curious about benchmarks. Figured some posters here might appreciate the info.

 

[Idontcare]

I appreciate the info! Waiting for llano here, dying laptop with a fan bolted to the bottom that needs to be replaced.

 

[RobertPters77]

Looking at Apple's information restriction policies and shareholder value, I guess they are doing it wrong. :hmm:

Apple's strategy relies on selling to their existing customers; Minuscule upgrades and Proprietary devices & standards.