Littering - disagreement with a Chief magistrate judge

[Carson Dyle]

Why on earth do they have to sign up? It should be automatic. That particular part of the problem is an easy fix.

It can't be automatic anywhere that you have a choice of trash services. And then somebody would have to monitor and cross-check all the services to see that every residence and business is in compliance. The only place I could see it being automatic is where the municipality itself if the trash hauler.

 

[CZroe]

Why on earth do they have to sign up? It should be automatic. That particular part of the problem is an easy fix.

Uhh, because that would be illegal in many places?

That was the whole problem with the ACA: The Federal government does not have the power to compel you to pay for a private product or service. The only reason the ACA was deemed legal was that the "compelling" part was considered by some to be a tax instead of a fine.

They also aren't allowed to create a city trash pickup service that puts the private services out of business. Obviously, some cities established trash services first, but that doesn't mean any city can follow suit (most can't). If you move into an apartment complex here they are required to pay for trash services. If you move into a private residence where an HOA does not provide the service as part of HOA dues, you may be compelled to sign up for a trash service. You usually still have a choice of trash services and I'm sure you could get an exception if you demonstrated that you were dealing with your trash a different way. For the cities that operate their own, well, the fee can easily be defined as a tax.

 

[FeuerFrei]

Litterers should be pilloried so the public can stop by and throw trash at them. I do like a good public shaming.

That might encourage more littering though ... :hmm:

 

[dullard]

The only place I could see it being automatic is where the municipality itself if the trash hauler.

Finally, ATOT is getting it. The municipality hauls the trash and/or hires companies to haul the trash. That simple switch gets rid of the vast majority of littering problems.

Uhh, because that would be illegal in many places?

See above, change the stupid local laws instead of thinking you can ticket your way out of bad laws.

 

[Carson Dyle]

Finally, ATOT is getting it. The municipality hauls the trash and/or hires companies to haul the trash. That simple switch gets rid of the vast majority of littering problems.

For most municipalities it would require an inordinate amount of oversight. The vast majority of people WANT a trash service. You'd have people checking records looking for the 1 in 1000 who would rather take their own trash out to the woods and dump it.

The town where I grew up has their own municipal trash service, but there are two means of paying for service: either a monthly flat rate for a container, or you can pay by purchasing trash bags or stickers for so much each, which benefits the anyone who produces little trash each week.

And what if you have residential or business addresses (rentals) that are vacant? They could be vacant for months at a time. Are you going to require the property owner to pay for trash service during that time?

I'm guessing the vast majority of the dumping is happening in more rural areas, in unincorporated areas or in townships that don't have their own trash service.

 

[dullard]

For most municipalities it would require an inordinate amount of oversight. The vast majority of people WANT a trash service. You'd have people checking records looking for the 1 in 1000 who would rather take their own trash out to the woods and dump it.

The town where I grew up has their own municipal trash service, but there are two means of paying for service: either a monthly flat rate for a container, or you can pay by purchasing trash bags or stickers for so much each, which benefits the anyone who produces little trash each week.

And what if you have residential or business addresses (rentals) that are vacant? They could be vacant for months at a time. Are you going to require the property owner to pay for trash service during that time?

I'm guessing the vast majority of the dumping is happening in more rural areas, in unincorporated areas or in townships that don't have their own trash service.

The cities that I've lived/worked in that have required trash service have been pretty simple. As part of the property tax, the city hires local tax haulers to haul away the trash. Obviously some places are vacant and the tax haulers drive right by since there is no trash to pick up (here we put the trash on the curb if there is trash to pick up). The city negotiates with the local haulers a typical vacancy rate (for example, if the vacancy is ~90%, they pay for 90% of the full service to all homes and businesses). About the only paperwork there is would be letting the trash haulers know when there are new neighborhoods to go to and the periodic contract negotiations.

In nearby cities that are roughly equivalent without the city taking care of the trash, there is a sometimes significant littering problem. In nearby cities with the city taking care of the trash, there is almost no littering problem at all.

 

[CZroe]

Finally, ATOT is getting it. The municipality hauls the trash and/or hires companies to haul the trash. That simple switch gets rid of the vast majority of littering problems.

Except that it doesn't. You're STILL barking up the wrong tree if you think that this is because people don't have home trash service. I've had to stop my car and force my passenger to go pick up their trash when both he and I had trash service. Most home trash services will not take tires or furniture. People emptying out trash from their cars are doing it because they are lazy and probably don't have garages.

 

[dullard]

Most home trash services will not take tires or furniture. People emptying out trash from their cars are doing it because they are lazy and probably don't have garages.

Fix the trash service not hauling away items.

 

[CZroe]

For most municipalities it would require an inordinate amount of oversight. The vast majority of people WANT a trash service. You'd have people checking records looking for the 1 in 1000 who would rather take their own trash out to the woods and dump it.



The town where I grew up has their own municipal trash service, but there are two means of paying for service: either a monthly flat rate for a container, or you can pay by purchasing trash bags or stickers for so much each, which benefits the anyone who produces little trash each week.



And what if you have residential or business addresses (rentals) that are vacant? They could be vacant for months at a time. Are you going to require the property owner to pay for trash service during that time?



I'm guessing the vast majority of the dumping is happening in more rural areas, in unincorporated areas or in townships that don't have their own trash service.

LOL! Nope. When I was a kid we had trash service from the county with free dumpsters all over the city and now those are long gone. Since about 1993 we have a few manned dumpsters which make sure you only bring special "county bags" (trash bags with the county seal printed on them; taxes are included with the bag purchase). Almost everyone within the city limits is required to have home commercial trash pickup service and the dumpsters are for everyone else. Every grocery store, dept. store, convenience store where you would normally buy trash bags has county bags.

Every place does it differently. "Free" or "included with taxes" trash pickup does not eliminate roadside littering in any city. Just take a look around you at all the cigarette butts on the ground. You will find litterbugs in any city, it's just not nearly as big a problem now as it used to be (less social tolerance).

 

[CZroe]

Fix the trash service not hauling away items.

It's not legal to dispose of tires with the trash. That's why there is a "tire disposal fee" any time a shop changes your tires. I change my own tires on the motorcycle, so I always have to find new uses for them (planters, tables, stools, stands, etc) or pay a place to take them.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

For most municipalities it would require an inordinate amount of oversight. The vast majority of people WANT a trash service. You'd have people checking records looking for the 1 in 1000 who would rather take their own trash out to the woods and dump it.

While i do WANT a trash service (and a recycling service), my main emphasis of WANT is for people to be half decent enough to.....

1. Not drink and drive - hence preventing #2
2. Throwing your beer bottle/can out the window, smashing glass pieces all over the street.
3. Not littering. Pull into any gas station. Pull into any grocery store. Pull into any-fucking-thing and I guarantee they have a trash can for public use - or even a dumpster out back.

Speaking of, how do you go about picking up trash like that? Thousands of little glass pieces. Is someone going to pick that up by hand?

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

It's not legal to dispose of tires with the trash. That's why there is a "tire disposal fee" any time a shop changes your tires. I change my own tires on the motorcycle, so I always have to find new uses for them (planters, tables, stools, stands, etc) or pay a place to take them.

To be fair, I would respect people 1/10 more if they at least put them in their trash can. At least the city can deal with it vs. having to hire people to find it, pick up, and transport it from their littering spot.

Not that it's saying much since I don't think it's a burden to properly dispose of things to begin with...

 

[lxskllr]

To be fair, I would respect people 1/10 more if they at least put them in their trash can. At least the city can deal with it vs. having to hire people to find it, pick up, and transport it from their littering spot.

Not that it's saying much since I don't think it's a burden to properly dispose of things to begin with...

Add a core charge to the tire, and let the government handle some of the cost since there will certainly be people bringing in old tires that were last used in the 50s. $10/per is good incentive to pickup tires, and it cuts down on mosquito breeders.

 

[DrPizza]

Add a core charge to the tire, and let the government handle some of the cost since there will certainly be people bringing in old tires that were last used in the 50s. $10/per is good incentive to pickup tires, and it cuts down on mosquito breeders.

That's a great idea. Sort of like deposits on cans, but reasonable enough in size that people will dispose of the tires properly.

 

[Eli]

That's a great idea. Sort of like deposits on cans, but reasonable enough in size that people will dispose of the tires properly.

This is a fantastic idea. :thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

Add a core charge to the tire, and let the government handle some of the cost since there will certainly be people bringing in old tires that were last used in the 50s. $10/per is good incentive to pickup tires, and it cuts down on mosquito breeders.

I agree in a general sense... So I don't know how the tire disposal fee goes.. but I'm GUESSING that when a tire is bought you only pay the disposal fee if you are.... actually disposing of old/used tires. If you simply buy the tires, take them home, and apply them yourself... you don't pay that fee.

I'm all for putting fee's/taxes like that up-front. It's inevitable that if you have a tire you must dispose of said tire... so why not have that fee charged upfront? Makes much more sense.

At the same time, part of me says just put that in base taxes (property/sales tax). Everyone uses tires... even if they aren't your tires..... It's not like only certain people use them.

 

[Eli]

I think acknowledging the human aspect of things like this is important.

Specifically, adding a deposit to something like a bottle changes your view of it. Instead of becoming garbage when you're through, it still has value. You collect them, and turn them in to get your refund.

This same concept can be applied pretty broadly I think. Tires would be fantastic.

 

[boomerang]

What is your opinion on this?

I think you should try to develop a better understanding of your role in the process. The magistrate makes the final determination and you need to respect that.

By writing multiple tickets, the majority of which are eventually nullified, you are just increasing the costs associated with each case that come before the magistrate. Additionally, you are sending a signal to the offenders that they have "gotten away with something". That is counterproductive.

Yourself, your coworkers and the judge should all be performing your jobs within the same framework of guidelines. The judge is the ultimate authority and therefore the judge dictates how these instances are to be handled.

The thread has skewed off in the direction of the littering itself. I'm answering the question you actually asked.

 

[CZroe]

Add a core charge to the tire, and let the government handle some of the cost since there will certainly be people bringing in old tires that were last used in the 50s. $10/per is good incentive to pickup tires, and it cuts down on mosquito breeders.

That's a great idea. Sort of like deposits on cans, but reasonable enough in size that people will dispose of the tires properly.

This is a fantastic idea. :thumbsup::thumbsup:

You guys do know that vehicles move around and stuff, right? Adding a "core charge" on tires and accepting tires that never had the core charge paid means the surrounding communities would come there to dispose of their tires without ever paying it. There's already a charge to dispose of the old tires when you buy new tires: the disposal fee. In most places it's already a mandatory charge. There isn't some epidemic of tires being improperly disposed of due to a lack of infrastructure and enforcement. The people doing this kind of thing are few and far between and, thanks to the OP, they aren't getting away with it either. Doesn't sound like a good idea to me. That's a good way to put all the tire shops in town out of business in favor of the ones on the edge of town. The better way is to mandate tire shops to charge the fee when they change a tire, like they already do.

 

[NetGuySC]

I think you should try to develop a better understanding of your role in the process. The magistrate makes the final determination and you need to respect that.

By writing multiple tickets, the majority of which are eventually nullified, you are just increasing the costs associated with each case that come before the magistrate. Additionally, you are sending a signal to the offenders that they have "gotten away with something". That is counterproductive.

Yourself, your coworkers and the judge should all be performing your jobs within the same framework of guidelines. The judge is the ultimate authority and therefore the judge dictates how these instances are to be handled.

The thread has skewed off in the direction of the littering itself. I'm answering the question you actually asked.

Thank you for your input. Multiple tickets aren't written anymore irregardless of how many items they toss out of the window. Reading the responses here have altered my opinion and that's a good thing. Thanks again

 

[shortylickens]

Thank you for your input. Multiple tickets aren't written anymore irregardless of how many items they toss out of the window. Reading the responses here have altered my opinion and that's a good thing. Thanks again

D:

ewww

 

[NetGuySC]

D:

ewww

Dang it!! I'm leaving it

 

[edro]

Does your city have multiple convenient trash drop off locations?
Tires are notoriously difficult to discard, so people resort to illegal dumping.

 

[Ichinisan]

In cities where you have proper waste services and only a few who remain who insist on littering, you almost never have don't have a "heavily littered road" that require a team of coworkers to watch and issue tickets.

Yes, there will always be a few who litter. But, cities that have figured out waste disposal keep it to just a few who litter. The OP didn't seem to be describing that situation. The OP can come in and fill in details about the exact situation in that location. Until then, I'm posting general posts that apply to general cities. Littering isn't a difficult problem. Teams of coworkers on littering ticking duty sounds far more like bandaid fixes that aren't addressing the problem of WHY they have such demand for littering.

Ticketing is a necessary last resort. Far too often, for the cities with heavily littered areas it is the only tool they have seriously tried.

There's a heavily littered backroad in my town where people dump furniture, tires, mattresses, etc. People are trying to escape extra charges for certain types of trash.

 

[NetGuySC]

Does your city have multiple convenient trash drop off locations?
Tires are notoriously difficult to discard, so people resort to illegal dumping.

Yes, we have convenience centers located throughout the county. People can leave up to four tires a day in the tire dumpster.