Littering - disagreement with a Chief magistrate judge

[Eli]

I'm a law enforcement officer that enforces only the animal control and littering laws of this county. We will put officers with tripod mounted hd cameras in the woods near heavily littered roads and highways. Once a violation is observed he notifies the uniformed officers that stops the vehicle and issues the citation. Often open container, child restraint, driving under suspension and drug possession violations are also discovered. The video evidence is cut from the days video and presented in court on a surface pro.


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We need more of this around here.

 

[1sikbITCH]

Hi,

Your opinions please. My coworkers and I work a litter detail. A couple days a week we will stake out a heavily littered road with HD cameras and catch people littering.
On one occasion, we had a video of a person stopping their car, getting out and throwing out three used tires into the ditch. He didn't throw all three tires at once, but one at a time.
On several other case a driver or passenger of a car would just clean out their car as it is going down the road. It is not uncommon for a litterbug to make multiple casts of litter while cleaning their car.
Another instance, a person threw out 27 large bags of trash beside a railroad track in a secluded area, I wanted to write 27 littering tickets but only wrote one. He received a $214 fine just the same fine as if I cited him for throwing out a pepsi can.
On the guy throwing the tires, I wrote three littering citations, but the judge said that it was one instance. Other instances of multiple pieces of trash being thrown individually was all counted as 1 piece of trash.

What is your opinion on this?

My opinion is that you'll eventually snap and go on a spree.

 

[Linux23]

who would dump couches and other shit on the side of the road?

 

[CZroe]

...savages ... subhuman ...

... certain individuals ... obviously ... not ... civilized ...

 

[dullard]

I would say it is one incident regardless of the number of "casts" the person makes with one drive by. But if they circle around later and "cast" out more litter, that should be two tickets. Otherwise you'll need instant replays to see if the arm started moving forward before the litter slipped out of the hand. It just isn't feasible.

Ultimately, though, you are doing it all wrong. Why isn't there a proper free place to place the trash, such as at the street corner? Raise taxes a miniscule amount and have proper trash collection. Stop blaming the litterers for poor city management.

Plus, this thread needs more Alice's Restaurant:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice%27s_Restaurant

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

Ultimately, though, you are doing it all wrong. Why isn't there a proper free place to place the trash, such as at the street corner? Raise taxes a miniscule amount and have proper trash collection. Stop blaming the litterers for poor city management.

No. OP is FAR from doing it wrong... The only thing they are doing wrong is not writing enough tickets. Sorry it's not something I often say about you but that was an INCREDIBLY moronic statement.

But I'm fine with your overall notion to a certain extent... For example, I would rather pay a small tax dedicated to properly disposing of car tires instead of paying the $5 fee or whatever it is every time I buy a new one. But the problem is though that not everything is disposed of in the same way. A single city isn't going to be able to handle all the different types of recycling: Glass/Aluminum/Paper, Car Tires, Car Batteries, chemicals, electronics, etc... etc... It's not as easy as "Oh just make a tax and magically a huge warehouse that can dispose of all types of items will appear".

But your statement overall has nothing to do with simply throwing trash out of your car window and into a field. There is no pickup service for an interstate highway in the middle of nowhere. Nor are there cities or anything to come and pick it up. Do you expect police officers patrolling the roads to spend half their shift picking up shit on the side of the road? Do you just expect things to magically disappear?

Not admitting that this is a societal problem is just plain ignorance. Either way, do your god damn job as a decent human and recycle in general. It's not hard. My piece of shit city even stopped picking up glass because they said it was too costly.... I still collect it all in a side bin and drive down to drop it off every few weeks.

 

[dullard]

Do you just expect things to magically disappear?

If the city has proper waste disposal, littering almost entirely disappears (albeit not magically). And many cities around the world do this (with or without all the recycling as needed). It is already a basically solved problem in other cities. It isn't hard, and it isn't that expensive (cheaper than sending around litter clean up crews, litter ticketing crews, having police waste their time writing so many tickets, and cluttering the judicial system).

Sure, ticket those few who remain that insist on littering. But ticketing littering should in general not be required if the city has proper places to put the trash. You'll be left with a few teens who do stupid things because they are teens.

 

[lxskllr]

If the city has proper waste disposal, littering almost entirely magically disappears. And many cities around the world do this. It is already a basically solved problem in other cities. It isn't hard, and it isn't that expensive (cheaper than sending around litter clean up crews, litter ticketing crews, having police waste their time writing so many tickets, and cluttering the judicial system).

Sure, ticket those few who remain that insist on littering. But ticketing littering should in general not be required if the city has proper places to put the trash. You'll be left with a few teens who do stupid things because they are teens.

MD removed trashcans in the parks to cut down on litter. They replaced them with signs telling people to pack their shit out. Dunno if it's better or worse than before, but I don't notice anymore trash. Maybe we just have better people around here.

 

[tynopik]

the worst litter culprits are those trailer tire retreads

they're all over the place and they can be very dangerous

 

[slag]

the worst litter culprits are those trailer tire retreads

they're all over the place and they can be very dangerous

Saw them everywhere on our trip to Florida. EVERYWHERE you could find whole sections of tires that had delaminated and separated from the rest of the tire just lying in the road or off to the side.

 

[SearchMaster]

If the city has proper waste disposal, littering almost entirely disappears (albeit not magically). And many cities around the world do this (with or without all the recycling as needed). It is already a basically solved problem in other cities. It isn't hard, and it isn't that expensive (cheaper than sending around litter clean up crews, litter ticketing crews, having police waste their time writing so many tickets, and cluttering the judicial system).

Sure, ticket those few who remain that insist on littering. But ticketing littering should in general not be required if the city has proper places to put the trash. You'll be left with a few teens who do stupid things because they are teens.

Ya know, I was thinking that all these littering issues people are talking about in this thread are not things I really see in my own county. Then you posted this comment and it made sense - we have pretty good waste disposal with public dump sites for garbage every 3-5 miles or so, and a big paid dump site for the bigger things that don't fit (the couches, etc.). You have to pay by the pound but it's certainly not a tremendous amount of money. They even have the county prisoners working it to unload all the crap off your truck/trailer for you.

 

[Capt Caveman]

If the city has proper waste disposal, littering almost entirely disappears (albeit not magically). And many cities around the world do this (with or without all the recycling as needed). It is already a basically solved problem in other cities. It isn't hard, and it isn't that expensive (cheaper than sending around litter clean up crews, litter ticketing crews, having police waste their time writing so many tickets, and cluttering the judicial system).

Sure, ticket those few who remain that insist on littering. But ticketing littering should in general not be required if the city has proper places to put the trash. You'll be left with a few teens who do stupid things because they are teens.

Except in many places, you have to pay to dispose of garbage. And so you have individuals and businesses that do not want to pay and thus dump their trash where they can.

 

[dullard]

Except in many places, you have to pay to dispose of garbage. And so you have individuals and businesses that do not want to pay and thus dump their trash where they can.

That is my point. If you have to directly pay for it, people will litter. So many cities around the world have solved this by having the city pay for it.

 

[sactoking]

I think you need to look for more laws. Perhaps improper disposal of hazardous waste for the tires?

I was thinking this as well. Things like paint, tires, electronics, etc. could all fall under hazardous waste laws. Then you're getting them for what they toss and not just the fact that they tossed something. Maybe create a joint agency task force with whatever agency is responsible for enforcing local environmental laws.

 

[Capt Caveman]

That is my point. If you have to directly pay for it, people will litter. So many cities around the world have solved this by having the city pay for it.

Or they fine people/businesses that try to illegally dump a dozen tires or 27 bags of trash b/c the disposal location wants to charge them b/c they're a business.

 

[tynopik]

nvm

 

[Carson Dyle]

Knowing a little about how rural governments work, you have to wonder if this was more about finding a way to generate some easy revenue. Just have a few of the guys from animal control (no doubt someone said "they spend most of their time sitting around anyway") put some remote video cameras out and bust litterers. Wham, bam, video, citation, court, $$$. Cha-Ching!!

 

[CZroe]

If the city has proper waste disposal, littering almost entirely disappears (albeit not magically). And many cities around the world do this (with or without all the recycling as needed). It is already a basically solved problem in other cities. It isn't hard, and it isn't that expensive (cheaper than sending around litter clean up crews, litter ticketing crews, having police waste their time writing so many tickets, and cluttering the judicial system).

Sure, ticket those few who remain that insist on littering. But ticketing littering should in general not be required if the city has proper places to put the trash. You'll be left with a few teens who do stupid things because they are teens.

What makes you think that the city doesn't have waste services and isn't doing this to ticket the few who remain who insist on littering?

Many cities simply require you to pay for a private trash service that has nothing to do with the city other than their mandate. Where I live most apartment complexes have a trash pickup service that is rolled into their costs of operation but most private residences have to have trash pickup service (serviced weekly; paid monthly).

 

[dullard]

What makes you think that the city doesn't have waste services and isn't doing this to ticket the few who remain who insist on littering?

In cities where you have proper waste services and only a few who remain who insist on littering, you almost never have don't have a "heavily littered road" that require a team of coworkers to watch and issue tickets.

Yes, there will always be a few who litter. But, cities that have figured out waste disposal keep it to just a few who litter. The OP didn't seem to be describing that situation. The OP can come in and fill in details about the exact situation in that location. Until then, I'm posting general posts that apply to general cities. Littering isn't a difficult problem. Teams of coworkers on littering ticking duty sounds far more like bandaid fixes that aren't addressing the problem of WHY they have such demand for littering.

Ticketing is a necessary last resort. Far too often, for the cities with heavily littered areas it is the only tool they have seriously tried.

 

[Carson Dyle]

Just because someone has waste removal services available to them, doesn't mean that they have to subscribe to them. Even when they do, when it comes to things that are not taken away without additional charges, people often do what's cheapest, and that's to put them in the back of a truck and take them out and throw them off the side of a deserted road.

 

[monkeydelmagico]

I'm a law enforcement officer that enforces only the animal control and littering laws of this county.

Thank you. It would also be helpful if you followed the trash truck through my neighborhood. Skippy and Thud who ride on the back seem to be challenged. For every time they miss the GIANT opening where the trash goes you can hit em with that fine.

Old Ms. Crochety with 1000 cats drags her trash bag along the ground leaving a trail of cat litter down the block. That there is a two-fer for ya.

The college kids across the way leave so many solo cups laying around that on windy days it looks like a red tornado.

So why are you guys REALLY going out and hiding in the woods?

 

[Aikouka]

My assumption is that the judge considers the act of littering to include the entire event regardless of whether the person had to go back to their mode of transportation to get another bit of refuse. Now, I'm guessing that if the tire guy left for 20 minutes to go get another tire from his house, then I think the judge would consider it two ticketable offenses. I'd probably agree with the judge here as trying to ticket each deposit of refuse could get a bit ludicrous/abused.

 

[CZroe]

In cities where you have proper waste services and only a few who remain who insist on littering, you almost never have don't have a "heavily littered road" that require a team of coworkers to watch and issue tickets.

Yes, there will always be a few who litter. But, cities that have figured out waste disposal keep it to just a few who litter. The OP didn't seem to be describing that situation. The OP can come in and fill in details about the exact situation in that location. Until then, I'm posting general posts that apply to general cities. Littering isn't a difficult problem. Teams of coworkers on littering ticking duty sounds far more like bandaid fixes that aren't addressing the problem of WHY they have such demand for littering.

Ticketing is a necessary last resort. Far too often, for the cities with heavily littered areas it is the only tool they have seriously tried.

Not true. Just like smokers who chuck their cigarette butt while standing right next to an ash tray/receptacle, there are people who will still throw their trash away improperly even with a city mandated/provided service. I've sat in court to testify against people and seen those who refuse to sign up for the city-mandated trash pickup services and you still find certain roads that people are using to dump their trash. I've lived coast to coast and I've seen it everywhere. An even bigger problem is scammers running trash services who just drive truckloads of trash up to some rural mountain hundreds of miles away and dump it off the side. All their city customers assume it's going fine until they get a letter inquiring about the trash service they use (addresses recovered from junk mail trash).

It's not nearly the problem it once was, which is why we have to make an example out of anyone who still does it.

 

[BurnItDwn]

27 big bags of garbage or 3 used tires, thats not "being a litterbug", thats "destruction of property" and "dumping" ... should carry much heavier penalty.

You are a slob if you toss the mcdonalds bag out the window.

Dumping a whole truckload of garbage bags or throwing out multiple tires onto some sort of public right of way is a MUCH MUCH bigger issue IMO.

 

[dullard]

I've sat in court to testify against people and seen those who refuse to sign up for the city-mandated trash pickup services and you still find certain roads that people are using to dump their trash.

Why on earth do they have to sign up? It should be automatic. That particular part of the problem is an easy fix.

An even bigger problem is scammers running trash services who just drive truckloads of trash up to some rural mountain hundreds of miles away and dump it off the side.

Those are few and far between, but it happens. Lock them up, shut down the business. A simple ticket wouldn't fix it. Or again, why isn't the city doing it?

It's not nearly the problem it once was, which is why we have to make an example out of anyone who still does it.

Yes, make examples of those who do it. I am not arguing against that. But a $214 ticket in this case isn't the solution. Otherwise, the OP wouldn't have to be on the job ticketing over and over again in high litter areas. The problem is that there aren't sufficient proper places to dispose of the trash in a way that all customers and businesses can operate.