Listening to and considering the 'other side'

[bradly1101]

In this forum I get a healthy dose of opinions that disagree with mine. I feel fairly stuck in my positions and often when I read an opposite view, I wonder, "How could anyone feel like that?"

But of course they do and I could stand listening with a more open mind. Although it doesn't swing me in their direction, I appreciate how strong folks feel because I know the depth of my own positions. I even learn more about my own feelings by being aware of others' in fascinating, mostly adult conversations.

So I really appreciate AT because otherwise I wouldn't hear those voices since I tune out that side of the media.

All this brings me greater respect for those who disagree with me. The only thing I have trouble with here are all the insults. It feels like the 5th grade sometimes, and they only seem to hurt one's argument. I'm likely to tune out those bent on animosity.

Do you check out the other side outside of this forum? Do conversations with people who disagree with you peak your interest, or get you riled up? I'm somewhere in between and moving toward interest.

 

[Texashiker]

Do you check out the other side outside of this forum? Do conversations with people who disagree with you peak your interest, or get you riled up? I'm somewhere in between and moving toward interest.

When I need a good laugh I go to places like huffpost and motherjones.

As for "listening to and considering the other side", yes I read the liberal articles. But I in no way consider liberalism as a way of life.

One of my main core values is people take responsibility for their actions. Regardless of what someone did they should take responsibility for their choices.

Liberalism goes against my core beliefs.

Few examples:

Woman gets pregnant, she should not be able to get an abortion to avoid responsibility.

Illegal immigrants sneak across the border. They should not be granted amnesty to avoid taking responsibility for their actions.

Murderers should not be granted life in prison with free healthcare, free room, and free meals for life. they should be put to death.

Companies should be required to pay a liveable wage. If they take money from the community they have a responsibility to put money back into the community.

Liberalism is about avoiding responsibility for poor life choices. My personal beliefs state that people either take responsibility, or be forced by law to take responsibility.

 

[theeedude]

When I need a good laugh I go to places like huffpost and motherjones.

As for "listening to and considering the other side", yes I read the liberal articles. But I in no way consider liberalism as a way of life.

One of my main core values is people take responsibility for their actions. Regardless of what someone did they should take responsibility for their choices.

Liberalism goes against my core beliefs.

Few examples:

Woman gets pregnant, she should not be able to get an abortion to avoid responsibility.

Illegal immigrants sneak across the border. They should not be granted amnesty to avoid taking responsibility for their actions.

Murderers should not be granted life in prison with free healthcare, free room, and free meals for life. they should be put to death.

Companies should be required to pay a liveable wage. If they take money from the community they have a responsibility to put money back into the community.

Liberalism is about avoiding responsibility for poor life choices. My personal beliefs state that people either take responsibility, or be forced by law to take responsibility.

I don't see how abortion is avoiding responsibility. A woman has no responsibility to anyone to give birth just because she had sex and got pregnant. It's simply a decision for her to make.

 

[Moonbeam]

bradly1101: In this forum I get a healthy dose of opinions that disagree with mine. I feel fairly stuck in my positions and often when I read an opposite view, I wonder, "How could anyone feel like that?"

M: That is the most important question for me. It become much clearer to me when you consider the science regarding differences in liberal and conservative brains.

b: But of course they do and I could stand listening with a more open mind. Although it doesn't swing me in their direction, I appreciate how strong folks feel because I know the depth of my own positions. I even learn more about my own feelings by being aware of others' in fascinating, mostly adult conversations.

M: You are open to listening. Many are not. They just come to shit out their opinion, paying not the slightest attention to what others have to say.

b: So I really appreciate AT because otherwise I wouldn't hear those voices since I tune out that side of the media.

M: As I said, interested in listening.

b: All this brings me greater respect for those who disagree with me. The only thing I have trouble with here are all the insults. It feels like the 5th grade sometimes, and they only seem to hurt one's argument. I'm likely to tune out those bent on animosity.

M: That is their intention. They heap ridicule on folk to cause them to want to leave so they can dominate the conversation. They are simple bullies and don't play fair. They have succeeded in life by kicking sand in people's faces. They are disgusting fuck worthless people who drag everybody down to their level so you feel so dirty you want to run. They depend on causing others to feel humiliation because they are immune to shame. This forum is filled with such scum because all the rational people run away.

b: Do you check out the other side outside of this forum? Do conversations with people who disagree with you peak your interest, or get you riled up? I'm somewhere in between and moving toward interest.

M: The bullies here do not want you to have interesting conversations. They want to ridicule and put you down until the forum is filled only with the kind of puss they can digest. They are like a spreading slime. Your options are to leave or help them to see who and what they are. All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. With the depth of brain deadness we see here, that's probably not much, but a lot of people with a lot of good sense still try. Being subjected to the constant shit people dump here is probably an acquired taste. It helps to have a rose garden within to transmute the shit into flowers. And you get a lot more of it when you slop the pigs with their own Karma.

 

[Texashiker]

A woman has no responsibility to anyone

Exactly my point.

The liberal mindset is based on avoiding and/or denying responsibility

 

[Ausm]

When I need a good laugh I go to places like huffpost and motherjones.

As for "listening to and considering the other side", yes I read the liberal articles. But I in no way consider liberalism as a way of life.

One of my main core values is people take responsibility for their actions. Regardless of what someone did they should take responsibility for their choices.

Liberalism goes against my core beliefs.

Few examples:

Woman gets pregnant, she should not be able to get an abortion to avoid responsibility.

Illegal immigrants sneak across the border. They should not be granted amnesty to avoid taking responsibility for their actions.

Murderers should not be granted life in prison with free healthcare, free room, and free meals for life. they should be put to death.

Companies should be required to pay a liveable wage. If they take money from the community they have a responsibility to put money back into the community.

Liberalism is about avoiding responsibility for poor life choices. My personal beliefs state that people either take responsibility, or be forced by law to take responsibility.

Nah, If you really want a good laugh goto Foxnews, Drudge report or the national review.

 

[fskimospy]

In this forum I get a healthy dose of opinions that disagree with mine. I feel fairly stuck in my positions and often when I read an opposite view, I wonder, "How could anyone feel like that?"

But of course they do and I could stand listening with a more open mind. Although it doesn't swing me in their direction, I appreciate how strong folks feel because I know the depth of my own positions. I even learn more about my own feelings by being aware of others' in fascinating, mostly adult conversations.

So I really appreciate AT because otherwise I wouldn't hear those voices since I tune out that side of the media.

All this brings me greater respect for those who disagree with me. The only thing I have trouble with here are all the insults. It feels like the 5th grade sometimes, and they only seem to hurt one's argument. I'm likely to tune out those bent on animosity.

Do you check out the other side outside of this forum? Do conversations with people who disagree with you peak your interest, or get you riled up? I'm somewhere in between and moving toward interest.

Considering where I have worked in the past I know a pretty large number of conservative people. We have perfectly reasonable and fun conversations. One of my oldest friends is a very conservative hedge fund manager and I love the guy.

With I'm sure some intemperate exceptions the people I insult on here are those who are bringing nothing to the conversation. I am in no way a conservative, but what I really hate is stupidity. Dmcowen is one of my least liked posters on here and he is very liberal, for example.

 

[LunarRay]

Exactly my point.

The liberal mindset is based on avoiding and/or denying responsibility

You've attributed abortion to avoidance and/or denial... You forget that the woman has her life course which includes pregnancy and if desired, abortion (within the parameters set by law). Abortion is a decision enabled by her Right to choose to carry to term or not.

It appears that you wish to determine for another what they should or should not do. You, if a woman, could carry to term or have a baby... that would be YOUR choice if pregnant. Why wouldn't you extend to others the Right you'd demand for yourself?

It would seem quite intelligent for a woman who understood her capacity to care for a child to make the decision best suited for her situation. Since men don't have babies why do they even get to opine in the matter. We've already determined what is moral within our society regarding abortion regardless of any religious moral concept or any other for that matter.

 

[Greenman]

I'll read or listen to any point of view, from almost anyone. With that said, there are a few people here who's point of view/position is always based in the notion that anyone who disagrees with them is not simply wrong, but that they're wrong and have to be stopped. From there it degenerates into the totalitarian view that differing opinions represent a brain defect or sickness. Those are the folks you either ignore or poke at.

 

[Greenman]

You've attributed abortion to avoidance and/or denial... You forget that the woman has her life course which includes pregnancy and if desired, abortion (within the parameters set by law). Abortion is a decision enabled by her Right to choose to carry to term or not.

It appears that you wish to determine for another what they should or should not do. You, if a woman, could carry to term or have a baby... that would be YOUR choice if pregnant. Why wouldn't you extend to others the Right you'd demand for yourself?

It would seem quite intelligent for a woman who understood her capacity to care for a child to make the decision best suited for her situation. Since men don't have babies why do they even get to opine in the matter. We've already determined what is moral within our society regarding abortion regardless of any religious moral concept or any other for that matter.

That's only half of the discussion. You are correct that only the mother can decide if she's ready to raise a child, and while this leaves men out in the cold, I don't see a better answer. But what about the rights of the unborn child? As it stands now, that child has rights depending on the whim of the mother. If she chooses to terminate the fetus, it's nothing but a clump of cells of no greater value than a skin tab. If anyone else makes that choice for her, it becomes capital murder. I don't like the idea of assigning human rights based on how someone feels at the moment.

 

[blankslate]

Woman gets pregnant, she should not be able to get an abortion to avoid responsibility.

Like it or not it's her body, it's ironic that people who say keep government out of business are fine with Government in people's bedrooms (or bodies) not that you fit into that mold but they are out there.

How's this in order for some guy to go around having sex without a condom they should get snipped. Makes sure they don't have to pay child support.

Illegal immigrants sneak across the border. They should not be granted amnesty to avoid taking responsibility for their actions.

There is another side of the equation... the people who hire them. People who hired immigrants under the table should be subject to fines that make it painful for them to employ illegal workers. If there are is no under the table employment for illegal immigrants there is less of an incentive for them to cross the border.

Murderers should not be granted life in prison with free healthcare, free room, and free meals for life. they should be put to death.

The problem with that is that there is a demonstrable bias in terms of sentencing based on the race of the victim. However, if in some magical land it was almost virtually certain that only people who actually killed another person in a murder was put on death row I wouldn't object.

Today the justice system is imperfect enough that I don't trust it enough to not execute people who didn't commit murder.

Liberalism is about avoiding responsibility for poor life choices. My personal beliefs state that people either take responsibility, or be forced by law to take responsibility.

Liberalism is not about that. classical Liberalism is about laissez faire policies. I gather you're talking about the social model that much of Europe follows if so then it's about this....

What do our opponents mean when they apply to us the label "Liberal?" If by "Liberal" they mean, as they want people to believe, someone who is soft in his policies abroad, who is against local government, and who is unconcerned with the taxpayer's dollar, then the record of this party and its members demonstrate that we are not that kind of "Liberal."

But if by a "Liberal" they mean someone who looks ahead and not behind, someone who welcomes new ideas without rigid reactions, someone who cares about the welfare of the people -- their health, their housing, their schools, their jobs, their civil rights, and their civil liberties -- someone who believes we can break through the stalemate and suspicions that grip us in our policies abroad, if that is what they mean by a "Liberal," then I'm proud to say I'm a "Liberal."

.....

 

[LunarRay]

That's only half of the discussion. You are correct that only the mother can decide if she's ready to raise a child, and while this leaves men out in the cold, I don't see a better answer. But what about the rights of the unborn child? As it stands now, that child has rights depending on the whim of the mother. If she chooses to terminate the fetus, it's nothing but a clump of cells of no greater value than a skin tab. If anyone else makes that choice for her, it becomes capital murder. I don't like the idea of assigning human rights based on how someone feels at the moment.

That is the rub....

Personally, If I were a woman I can't imagine me aborting a child no matter the causation. But, that is me...
As to the unborn child it seems reasonable for a society to weigh the Rights on a scale that considers factors like... but for the mother the fetus would die anyhow. IOW, when a fetus can survive without the mother abortion should be unattainable... That would vary with some standard applied but with unbiased medical opinion heavily weighted in the equation.

When do Rights of Personhood apply will be debated forever, it seems.

 

[Texashiker]

It appears that you wish to determine for another what they should or should not do.

Yes, people should take responsibility for their actions.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

The "other side" is a concept I have trouble relating to in the sense that most here seem to mean.

To me there appears a division between people who are fundamentally identical in how they think. A thing is "liberal" or "conservative", but there's little difference. One side has a box of "us" and "not us" and stuffs things into them based on what are often pointless and arbitrary distinctions. Then they defend that little patch of self against all comers. I get it at an intellectual level because people are herd animals and follow without much thinking as to their real destination so long as the path is trod by their recognized alphas. At that point it does not matter if the interpretation of some thing is correct. It doesn't matter if it's functionally best. It doesn't matter. What does is that everything obey dogma, but I say be not conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.

 

[Moonbeam]

The "other side" is a concept I have trouble relating to in the sense that most here seem to mean.

To me there appears a division between people who are fundamentally identical in how they think. A thing is "liberal" or "conservative", but there's little difference. One side has a box of "us" and "not us" and stuffs things into them based on what are often pointless and arbitrary distinctions. Then they defend that little patch of self against all comers. I get it at an intellectual level because people are herd animals and follow without much thinking as to their real destination so long as the path is trod by their recognized alphas. At that point it does not matter if the interpretation of some thing is correct. It doesn't matter if it's functionally best. It doesn't matter. What does is that everything obey dogma, but I say be not conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.

That is not possible for the person who has substituted group identity for self respect because he was told as a child to join or die, that he would be worthless as a person if he were real.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

That is not possible for the person who has substituted group identity for self respect because he was told as a child to join or die, that he would be worthless as a person if he were real.

Yet something must change because it is right and good that it does. This is a hard task, but perhaps it is in small things, small acts of genuine kindness which make a difference.

 

[Moonbeam]

Yet something must change because it is right and good that it does. This is a hard task, but perhaps it is in small things, small acts of genuine kindness which make a difference.

That sounds good to me. But because a bigot has been shamed into being a bigot by ridicule, perhaps it, ridicule that can dig him out. Otherwise, if the issue isn,t addresses, the go marching on. Creating more and more bigots. At the minimum they have to face what they dish out to others. We get I that way a somewhat more balanced equation. I hope you will try to see if you can see a film called Red Beard. I used to have one.

 

[DucatiMonster696]

When I need a good laugh I go to places like huffpost and motherjones.

As for "listening to and considering the other side", yes I read the liberal articles. But I in no way consider liberalism as a way of life.

One of my main core values is people take responsibility for their actions. Regardless of what someone did they should take responsibility for their choices.

Liberalism goes against my core beliefs.

Few examples:

Woman gets pregnant, she should not be able to get an abortion to avoid responsibility.

Illegal immigrants sneak across the border. They should not be granted amnesty to avoid taking responsibility for their actions.

Murderers should not be granted life in prison with free healthcare, free room, and free meals for life. they should be put to death.

Companies should be required to pay a liveable wage. If they take money from the community they have a responsibility to put money back into the community.

Liberalism is about avoiding responsibility for poor life choices. My personal beliefs state that people either take responsibility, or be forced by law to take responsibility.

The problem I have with the abortion example you used here is that taking responsibility for getting pregnant can take on more then just the implied solution you leave us the reader to form, i.e. having the baby.

That is to say that you ignore the fact that getting an abortion is an example of being responsible for your actions/mistakes if you know you cannot take care of the potential child and elect to seek out an abortion clinic, etc. Hence you instead use your own personal views on abortion as the reason to denote that getting an abortion is not a form of responsibility which IMHO is inherently untrue in many cases where women seek an abortion.

Thus IMHO the real issue is not that a women should or should not be able to receive an abortion but whether or not she should be able to force other people to pay for her actions/mistakes via government funded abortions or welfare for the baby she would eventually have if she rejects electing to have an abortion.

That IMHO is where the real differences lie between both sides. That is this is the real issue at play here because whether or not a woman should or should not get an abortion is not and should not be up to you or me to decided if we live in a free society. However whether or not we should be forced to pay for it or not is the real crux of the problem here, if again we claim to live in a free society. Thus this is where the real conflict lays between both sides.

 

[Texashiker]

The problem I have with the abortion example you used here is that taking responsibility for getting pregnant can take on more then just the implied solution you leave us the reader to form, i.e. having the baby.

The solution is for the parents to take responsibility for the child they created.

Learn a skill, go to college, get a job, create a product,,, do something to get off public assistance and take responsibility for your actions.

 

[LunarRay]

That sounds good to me. But because a bigot has been shamed into being a bigot by ridicule, perhaps it, ridicule that can dig him out. Otherwise, if the issue isn,t addresses, the go marching on. Creating more and more bigots. At the minimum they have to face what they dish out to others. We get I that way a somewhat more balanced equation. I hope you will try to see if you can see a film called Red Beard. I used to have one.

You should still have it. You sent it to me and I watched it and returned it.... look in the garage :whiste:

 

[Greenman]

That sounds good to me. But because a bigot has been shamed into being a bigot by ridicule, perhaps it, ridicule that can dig him out. Otherwise, if the issue isn,t addresses, the go marching on. Creating more and more bigots. At the minimum they have to face what they dish out to others. We get I that way a somewhat more balanced equation. I hope you will try to see if you can see a film called Red Beard. I used to have one.

Again, as always, you place yourself in the position of being the sole arbiter of right and wrong. You decide what the standard is, and you decide who meets it. This isn't an enlightened point of view, it's almost everyone's point of view. You also think that by being inclusive of those that are sometimes ridiculed by other segments of society that you've somehow achieved the higher moral ground, when in fact you simply use those people as a vehicle to propel your own brand of intolerance. Bottom line is, you're no better than anyone else.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

This comment is directed toward policy makers or deal proposers, not AT posters. I want to know how we will tell if something is working or not working and what is the consequence or new plan if it fails.
Example pipeline from Canada tar sands:
How many jobs
How many long term jobs
What it will do to oil prices
What is the penalty if you're wrong

Or ACA:
how many will be covered
How much for coverage/what's covered
What is the plan if it doesn't work

Or tax breaks to businesses
How long until more are hired
How many for how much of a tax cut
When will results be seen
How does the lost revenue get recouped if it doesn't work

I believe everyone needs to have some commitment and accountability to whatever bill/deal is proposed

 

[alzan]

When I need a good laugh I go to places like huffpost and motherjones.

As for "listening to and considering the other side", yes I read the liberal articles. But I in no way consider liberalism as a way of life.

One of my main core values is people take responsibility for their actions. Regardless of what someone did they should take responsibility for their choices.

Liberalism goes against my core beliefs.

Few examples:

Woman gets pregnant, she should not be able to get an abortion to avoid responsibility.

Illegal immigrants sneak across the border. They should not be granted amnesty to avoid taking responsibility for their actions.

Murderers should not be granted life in prison with free healthcare, free room, and free meals for life. they should be put to death.

Companies should be required to pay a liveable wage. If they take money from the community they have a responsibility to put money back into the community.

Liberalism is about avoiding responsibility for poor life choices. My personal beliefs state that people either take responsibility, or be forced by law to take responsibility.

So liberals don't believe people should be held accountable for their actions?

How absolutely fascinating. Please tell me more about what I believe.

Come on, I know you can do it.

 

[Moonbeam]

Again, as always, you place yourself in the position of being the sole arbiter of right and wrong. You decide what the standard is, and you decide who meets it. This isn't an enlightened point of view, it's almost everyone's point of view. You also think that by being inclusive of those that are sometimes ridiculed by other segments of society that you've somehow achieved the higher moral ground, when in fact you simply use those people as a vehicle to propel your own brand of intolerance. Bottom line is, you're no better than anyone else.

I have my own answers to what you say here and they are hard word to express, but one thing is easy to pick up on. When you point out that I am no better than anybody else, it tells me that you are focused on that, that you are competitive and want to prevent me from taking some station above you. But none of that is of the slightest importance for me. I am not in a competition because I won that race long ago. I defeated the Nothing by dying to winning. The result of that was that I was stripped of everything which I thought had value and found a deeper reality, that being nothing is everything. I am the sole arbitrator of right and wrong because I lost everything in my head but opened my heart. It's not very hard to tell the difference, when you are empty of shit, to know who is also empty and who if full of it. You know it as sure as you know you won the battle of ego that never existed.

The truth about what we hide from ourselves in our feelings is terrible and ugly and you don't want to see it. I was forced to see it, lucky me. You just can't know anything as long as you cling to your stupid hideous ego. But don't forget that beneath all that is a wonderful person like me, and for you maybe even much better because bits and pieces of the ego self cling tight and are difficult to eradicate. I'm pretty much a nobody, really.

 

[hans030390]

One of my main core values is people take responsibility for their actions. Regardless of what someone did they should take responsibility for their choices.

So, when conservatives try to break down existing regulations or block potential regulations that hold others accountable/responsible for their actions under the guise of it being a limitation of freedom or stifling the creation of jobs (a position that is difficult to defend from an objective standpoint), how is that any different? Let's use, say, environmental regulations, because our well-being is tied to the well-being of the environment we all share.

You could also argue that abortion is a responsible action to take. Because trying to get people to not have sex is just stupid and impossible, and no form of protection is perfect. What if you are not ready to have a child? (You can have a college degree and a well-paying, full time job, be married, etc. and still not be ready for a child!) What if there's no way you'd be able to raise the child without some sort of assistance? Thus, others involved in assisting you (which, given our social system, is often tax payers) now become at least partially responsible for raising your child, even if indirectly. Perhaps one doesn't want to have to rely on assistance from anyone, especially governmental, so they decide to take the abortion route. Is that not some form of personal responsibility?

On top of that, the world's currently population and growth rate is discouraging (not so much in the US, though there are more people than jobs available), so you could argue it's more responsible to NOT have children at this point. And, as mentioned, pregnancy can happen despite any measures taken (besides trying to stop people from sexing it up).

In these regards, one can argue that abortion is often a responsible action to take (maybe even the most responsible action in some situations).

Your points and argument instead seems like a poor attempt to thinly veil the fact that this is more about your personal views on morality than an issue of personal responsibility or freedom. (No surprise, as everyone does this on any side.)

If anything, you have your views backwards. Liberals/progressives are more about making sure regulations and rules are in place to make sure people and groups are held accountable for their actions, because their actions can negatively impact the lives of others and infringe on their freedoms (even indirectly). Doing your own thing with your own body/property and nothing messing up the lives of others in the process? Go about your business. It's all about maximizing freedom but still having enough boundaries in place to make sure folks are held responsible when they infringe on someone else's personal freedoms.

I encourage you to expand the realm of your thinking, because you have such a simplistic and incorrect worldview that it is almost baffling.