Listen to what I say, not what I do

magomago

Lifer
Sep 28, 2002
10,973
14
76
How much longer do we go through this? There is no commitment to the peace plan from Israel - the longer they stall things, the better it is for them. I'm sure they are giddy at the Palestinian in fighting right now.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7542097.stm

From Gaza to the Jordan Valley via Beersheva, K'Dumim, Alon Shvot, and Hamdot.

With a wry smile and a shrug of the shoulders Yossi Hazut describes how he has moved from place to place across Israel and the Palestinian Territories for the last three years.

Now, sat under the welcoming shade of a tree, Yossi tells me he has finally found somewhere he and his young family can call home.

Yossi and fellow settlers from Shirat Hayam were among the last to be forcibly removed from the Jewish settlements in Gaza in 2005 as part of the controversial "disengagement" process instigated by then Prime Minister Ariel Sharon.

Twenty of those families, who have remained committed to their Zionist ideals, are now preparing to build a new Jewish community - not on the sand dunes of Gaza, but in the equally hot but fertile landscape of the Jordan Valley.


Like Gaza, this is recognised internationally as Palestinian land, something that Yossi challenges.

"As a law-abiding Israeli citizen, I accept my country's laws which allow me to build my home here," says Yossi.

He gestures towards a patch of land, now covered in wispy yellow grass, where they plan to build several new housing units.

"As a religious Jew I also have a duty to settle here," Yossi tells me. "This land was promised to us by God and that promise is now being fulfilled."

Hard to defend

If, as expected, it gets final Israeli government approval, this former military outpost known as Maskiot will be the first new, formal, Jewish settlement to be established in the Occupied West Bank for a decade.

Under the current Road Map - the basis for peace talks between Israel and the Palestinians - all settlement activity is meant to be frozen.

However, the approval or building of new Jewish homes in Arab East Jerusalem and in Occupied West Bank has actually increased this year.

UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon said he was "deeply concerned" over the new Maskiot plan, whereas the British government said it was "dismayed".

Even Israel's staunchest ally finds the policy hard to defend.

Settlement expansion was "not helpful" and was "inconsistent with Israel's commitment to the roadmap", said a spokesman for US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, referring to the international peace plan that is the basis for Israeli-Palestinian negotiations.

Demolition order

It is not finer points of the roadmap that worries Jasser Dargma - a Palestinian farmer a couple of kilometres down the valley from Maskiot.

He is more concerned by a tatty, torn piece of paper given to him by the Israeli military authorities.

It is a demolition order for his house, in reality a small shack in which Jasser, his wife and six children live.

Court papers
A demolition order for Jasser's house says he has no permission to build

Although the document acknowledges that Jasser owns the land (it has been in his family for several generations), it says he has no permission for the "wooden building" - his house.

Jasser shrugs and tells me there is absolutely no point applying for permission to build as Palestinians are rarely, if ever, allowed to build in the Jordan Valley area.

So while Jewish settlers prepare to establish homes, offices and school buildings, Jasser may well see his very modest home knocked down by a bulldozer.

It is not just the buildings. Jasser says he has been physically prevented by the Israeli military authorities from using natural springs in the area for drinking water and to irrigate his crops.

He says the settlers, though, are given as much water as they want from a pipeline which crosses over his land, but which he is not allowed to use.

Jasser says it is a similar story with an electricity supply, which is carried by an overhead line that passes right over his shack. It brings light, power and convenience to the settlers, but Jasser says he has no access to the power supply.

Movement restricted

Fathy Khadarat is a local Palestinian co-ordinator who has documented the steady movement of Palestinian villagers away from the Valley.

He also helps farmers like Jasser to mount legal challenges against demolition orders.

"I think the plan is to put pressure on him to leave this area", says Fathy. "If he can't build a simple house and is not allowed to use the water, he won't be able to grow crops and will have no income."

Despite many requests no-one from the Israeli authorities would be interviewed on the issue of the Maskiot settlement but, in a statement, the government said the settlement was Israeli land and that everyone in the area had the same legal rights and access to resources.

Israel says the Jordan Valley - the eastern flank of the occupied West Bank - is strategically important.

Not only does it form much of a long border with Jordan but Israel says many attacks by Palestinian militants have been launched from the area.


Neither man says he has any animosity towards the other, and both say they are prepared - in theory - to live side by side

So, movement for Palestinians is restricted with road-blocks and checkpoints.

Jasser says if the army demolishes his home, he will build a new one. He has no intention of leaving his land.

Yossi is equally adamant after being shunted around the region for the last three years.

Neither man says he has any animosity towards the other, and both say they are prepared - in theory - to live side by side.

The future of the Jordan Valley, its Jewish settlements and Palestinian villages, will be decided in a Palestinian-Israeli peace deal.

If and when that happens, might there be a way of accommodating both Jasser and Yossi in this stunningly beautiful but often hostile strip of land?

Lord...we talk about being wary of religious extremists - someone who invokes the mandate of God to justify their actions is the spitting image of an extremist....of course he can rely on the Israeli military for violence instead of having to engage in it himself.

And the response from our government is equally bullshit. We call for isolating areas like Gaza because of the people they elect, allow the destruction of the economy and creation of a humanitarian crisis...ignore it while still emphasizing that Palestinians need to be committed to peace. On the other hand if Israel's government strays from peace we simply call it "inconsistent" even though they are directly trying to use physical and legal pressure to get rid of people on land in which they have lived on for generations.

All of this really just feed my animosity for those in the Israeli government that are deliberately trying to push the Arabs into the sea, as well as those settlers. Time to wake up people about the myths that Israel is just trying to defend itself - a lot of it is pure bullshit.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,894
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: magomago
Topic Title: Listen to what I say, not what I do
Topic Summary: ...more proof that Israel only wants to take all the land


How much longer do we go through this? There is no commitment to the peace plan from Israel - the longer they stall things, the better it is for them. I'm sure they are giddy at the Palestinian in fighting right now.

Lord...we talk about being wary of religious extremists - someone who invokes the mandate of God to justify their actions is the spitting image of an extremist....of course he can rely on the Israeli military for violence instead of having to engage in it himself.

And the response from our government is equally bullshit. We call for isolating areas like Gaza because of the people they elect, allow the destruction of the economy and creation of a humanitarian crisis...ignore it while still emphasizing that Palestinians need to be committed to peace. On the other hand if Israel's government strays from peace we simply call it "inconsistent" even though they are directly trying to use physical and legal pressure to get rid of people on land in which they have lived on for generations.

All of this really just feed my animosity for those in the Israeli government that are deliberately trying to push the Arabs into the sea, as well as those settlers. Time to wake up people about the myths that Israel is just trying to defend itself - a lot of it is pure bullshit.

Good, I hope they take it all.

What have the others done with it?
 
Oct 30, 2004
11,442
32
91
Israel should take all of the land. As the only government that advocates individual rights for its citizens, it's the only one in the region morally entitled to govern any land anyway. Why should primitive mystic Muslims have any of the land at all? Do they even acknowledge women as full-fledged human beings or as chattel? Why did they attempt to attack the Israelis in the first place, decades ago? Israel should have just kept all of the land it had taken in its many (self-defense) wars in the first place.

All things considered, Israel has been amazingly altruistic and gentle with the Arabs. Can you imagine what the Soviets or the Chinese would have done in Israel's place? They might have just conquered the entire Middle East and then exterminated the Arabs while thinking nothing of it. They would have at least eradicated the Palestinians.
 
Oct 30, 2004
11,442
32
91
Originally posted by: ChunkiMunki
Why does the BBC always bash Israel? To appease their new Islamic citizens?

Perhaps the BBC stands for the suicide of Western Civilization?
 

magomago

Lifer
Sep 28, 2002
10,973
14
76
So let us see...if any of you ever claim or bitch at problems in the peace process I'm going to call you out because it is absolutely clear that each of you are part of the FUD that tries to purposely obfuscate the situation.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,894
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper
Israel should take all of the land. As the only government that advocates individual rights for its citizens, it's the only one in the region morally entitled to govern any land anyway. Why should primitive mystic Muslims have any of the land at all? Do they even acknowledge women as full-fledged human beings or as chattel? Why did they attempt to attack the Israelis in the first place, decades ago? Israel should have just kept all of the land it had taken in its many (self-defense) wars in the first place.

All things considered, Israel has been amazingly altruistic and gentle with the Arabs. Can you imagine what the Soviets or the Chinese would have done in Israel's place? They might have just conquered the entire Middle East and then exterminated the Arabs while thinking nothing of it. They would have at least eradicated the Palestinians.

You don't quite have it right but not a bad attempt for an American.
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
0
0
Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper
Israel should take all of the land. As the only government that advocates individual rights for its citizens, it's the only one in the region morally entitled to govern any land anyway. Why should primitive mystic Muslims have any of the land at all? Do they even acknowledge women as full-fledged human beings or as chattel? Why did they attempt to attack the Israelis in the first place, decades ago? Israel should have just kept all of the land it had taken in its many (self-defense) wars in the first place.

All things considered, Israel has been amazingly altruistic and gentle with the Arabs. Can you imagine what the Soviets or the Chinese would have done in Israel's place? They might have just conquered the entire Middle East and then exterminated the Arabs while thinking nothing of it. They would have at least eradicated the Palestinians.
Here is an interview with Hanan Ashrawi, a Palestinian woman from a Christian family, who has long served in Palestinian legislature:

http://video.google.com/videos...&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=iv#

She answers all the questions you asked and explains quite a bit more about situation as well.
 

Auric

Diamond Member
Oct 11, 1999
9,596
2
71
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: vhx
Why exactly should we care about Israel again?
They owes us a lot of money??

US military contractors (and thus their predominantly elite shareholders) have about three billion little reasons to care as that is the sum of annual so-called foreign aid to Israel which must be spent on war materiel. Everyone else should care because it is a drain on the public treasury with no return for them and it creates bad will with the people of the entire region.

As to Israel's so-called claim to the land, well that is akin to a crazy homeless guy taking a fancy to your home and moving in against your wishes. Also, he occasionally beats you up.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,591
5
0
Originally posted by: Auric
As to Israel's so-called claim to the land, well that is akin to a crazy homeless guy taking a fancy to your home and moving in against your wishes. Also, he occasionally beats you up.

And that sounds exactly the way Israel saw it happening for her first 30+ years in the neighborhood.

And no one stood up for her, it was always the bullies that got preferential treatment because they cried everytime Israel kicked them in the balls.

 

RichardE

Banned
Dec 31, 2005
10,246
2
0
Originally posted by: magomago
So let us see...if any of you ever claim or bitch at problems in the peace process I'm going to call you out because it is absolutely clear that each of you are part of the FUD that tries to purposely obfuscate the situation.

Of course mr. terrorist sympathizer. Did you cheer when rockets were launched into Israel? I bet you did, its ok, others did too. I love how you kinda turn the current in fighting in palestine to be Israels fault, sad to see your own people getting sick of your pointless crusade. The faster you guys kill your own trash the better it is for everyone. So sit back and enjoy the ride. Since there is absolutly nothing you can do.
 

magomago

Lifer
Sep 28, 2002
10,973
14
76
Originally posted by: RichardE
Originally posted by: magomago
So let us see...if any of you ever claim or bitch at problems in the peace process I'm going to call you out because it is absolutely clear that each of you are part of the FUD that tries to purposely obfuscate the situation.

Of course mr. terrorist sympathizer. Did you cheer when rockets were launched into Israel? I bet you did, its ok, others did too. I love how you kinda turn the current in fighting in palestine to be Israels fault, sad to see your own people getting sick of your pointless crusade. The faster you guys kill your own trash the better it is for everyone. So sit back and enjoy the ride. Since there is absolutly nothing you can do.

Oh STFU calling me a terrorist sympathizer. Talk about generalizing me and turning this all the sudden into me cheering when missiles were launched by Hamas. Go look up my post history on that - I never cheered on those because I know it is bad PR and have made that clear.

You also JUMP to the conclusion that I claimed the current problems were due to Israel. I did not say that at all - I did not insinuate that. I claimed that Isreal is happy at the current infighting, because the Palestinians divide themselves. It makes the 'conquer' part easier when people have already divided themselves.

Notice what my post is about: physical and legal pressure to deny Palestinians land and resources that they have every right too. Israel just mutely says "Oh everyone has equal access" which is clearly false. Then I complained that the only response the US has is 'inconsistent' whereas with violations by the Palestinians we allow them to be collectively punished with impunity.

Instead you just rely on tough words to try to beat down on me and be little these important events, try to cast me as a terrorist sympathizer. That isn't going to work. Take your bullshit elsewhere.
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,007
572
126
Originally posted by: magomago
Originally posted by: RichardE
Originally posted by: magomago
So let us see...if any of you ever claim or bitch at problems in the peace process I'm going to call you out because it is absolutely clear that each of you are part of the FUD that tries to purposely obfuscate the situation.

Of course mr. terrorist sympathizer. Did you cheer when rockets were launched into Israel? I bet you did, its ok, others did too. I love how you kinda turn the current in fighting in palestine to be Israels fault, sad to see your own people getting sick of your pointless crusade. The faster you guys kill your own trash the better it is for everyone. So sit back and enjoy the ride. Since there is absolutly nothing you can do.

Oh STFU calling me a terrorist sympathizer. Talk about generalizing me and turning this all the sudden into me cheering when missiles were launched by Hamas. Go look up my post history on that - I never cheered on those because I know it is bad PR and have made that clear.

You also JUMP to the conclusion that I claimed the current problems were due to Israel. I did not say that at all - I did not insinuate that. I claimed that Isreal is happy at the current infighting, because the Palestinians divide themselves. It makes the 'conquer' part easier when people have already divided themselves.

Notice what my post is about: physical and legal pressure to deny Palestinians land and resources that they have every right too. Israel just mutely says "Oh everyone has equal access" which is clearly false. Then I complained that the only response the US has is 'inconsistent' whereas with violations by the Palestinians we allow them to be collectively punished with impunity.

Instead you just rely on tough words to try to beat down on me and be little these important events, try to cast me as a terrorist sympathizer. That isn't going to work. Take your bullshit elsewhere.

Fact of the matter is that Palestine isn't helping the situation. They aren't the helpless victims of Israeli hatred that this article makes them out to be.
 

RightIsWrong

Diamond Member
Apr 29, 2005
5,649
0
0
Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper
Israel should take all of the land. As the only government that advocates individual rights for its citizens, it's the only one in the region morally entitled to govern any land anyway. Why should primitive mystic Muslims have any of the land at all?

Oh, the ironing.

I'll bet that you don't even realize that you are claiming that the Israelis are the only government with respect for its citizens while claiming that they have a moral right/obligation to trample on the rights of other citizens.

And then you have the gall to call them primitive.
 

Auric

Diamond Member
Oct 11, 1999
9,596
2
71
Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
Originally posted by: Auric
As to Israel's so-called claim to the land, well that is akin to a crazy homeless guy taking a fancy to your home and moving in against your wishes. Also, he occasionally beats you up.

And that sounds exactly the way Israel saw it happening for her first 30+ years in the neighborhood.

And no one stood up for her, it was always the bullies that got preferential treatment because they cried everytime Israel kicked them in the balls.

Oh yes, I forgot... the police came by and gave the crazy homeless guy a gun as well.

The point is the homeowner has a legitimate claim whereas the guy hearing voices saying it belongs to him does not. If the homeowner is magnanimous, he may allow the homeless guy to stay -perhaps in an outbuilding, but for the guy to take over is absurd.
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
0
0
Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
Originally posted by: Auric
As to Israel's so-called claim to the land, well that is akin to a crazy homeless guy taking a fancy to your home and moving in against your wishes. Also, he occasionally beats you up.

And that sounds exactly the way Israel saw it happening for her first 30+ years in the neighborhood.
With the difference being that Israel made those Palestinians homeless byrunning them out of their homelands, just as Israel contenues to do today.

Originally posted by: Atreus21
Fact of the matter is that Palestine isn't helping the situation. They aren't the helpless victims of Israeli hatred that this article makes them out to be.
What are you suggesting the man in the article and the countless Palestinians restricted from building homes on their own property by Israel doing to hurt the situation? How are they anything but helpless against Israelis continuing colonization of what little is left of Palestine?
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,591
5
0
Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
Originally posted by: Auric
As to Israel's so-called claim to the land, well that is akin to a crazy homeless guy taking a fancy to your home and moving in against your wishes. Also, he occasionally beats you up.

And that sounds exactly the way Israel saw it happening for her first 30+ years in the neighborhood.
With the difference being that Israel made those Palestinians homeless byrunning them out of their homelands, just as Israel contenues to do today.

Originally posted by: Atreus21
Fact of the matter is that Palestine isn't helping the situation. They aren't the helpless victims of Israeli hatred that this article makes them out to be.
What are you suggesting the man in the article and the countless Palestinians restricted from building homes on their own property by Israel doing to hurt the situation? How are they anything but helpless against Israelis continuing colonization of what little is left of Palestine?

Payback is hell - this happened in reverse 4 times

 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
0
0
What are you implying this Jasser Dargma and Palestinians like him have done to have such hell inflicted upon them?
 

brandonb

Diamond Member
Oct 17, 2006
3,731
2
0
Israel for the Jews. Palestinians not wanted there. They are filthy lesser human terrorist scum.
Germany for the Germans. Jews not wanted there. They are filthy lesser human scum.

I see a pattern.

Why am I not suprised? But then again, I must be anti-semite or a terrorist to not agree with Israeli's.

What has Israel done for you lately?
 

marincounty

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2005
3,227
5
76
Originally posted by: brandonb
Israel for the Jews. Palestinians not wanted there. They are filthy lesser human terrorist scum.
Germany for the Germans. Jews not wanted there. They are filthy lesser human scum.

I see a pattern.

Why am I not suprised? But then again, I must be anti-semite or a terrorist to not agree with Israeli's.

What has Israel done for you lately?


Uh, designed the cpu you are using to go online with?

And what have the Palestinians done for you lately?
Invented the suicide belt?