Question List of DRAM-less SSD controllers?

[cbn]

Besides the Silicon Motion SM2246XT, Jmicron JMF608, Jmicron JMF60F, Phison S9 what other DRAM-less SSD controllers exist today? And what drives are they found in?

Link to info on Silicon Motion SM2246XT and Phison S9:

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=37470777&postcount=25

Link to info on Jmicron JMF608 and JMF60F:

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=37476310&postcount=27

 

[Soulkeeper]

toshiba Q series were one
I believe many controllers have the option, It's more a board/bios thing in many cases.

 

[Essence_of_War]

Genuinely curious, why is this a useful or interesting metric to sort by?

 

[dave_the_nerd]

Genuinely curious, why is this a useful or interesting metric to sort by?

Because DRAM-less SSD designs are usually a bit cheaper. (Fewer chips, short BoM.)

They are also slower, though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ll3uipTO-4A

 

[zir_blazer]

And for that purpose, this could be better.

 

[cbn]

The four controllers (Silicon Motion SM2246XT, Phison S9, Jmicron JMF608 and JMF60F) I listed in the OP don't list TLC NAND support.

Any existing or upcoming DRAM less SSD controllers that support TLC NAND?

 

[cbn]

I did find the following Dec. 2014 announcement of two DRAM-less Marvell controllers that support TLC NAND :

http://www.storagereview.com/marvell_88nv1140_and_88nv1120_dramless_nvme_ssd_controllers_announced

Marvell 88NV1140 and 88NV1120 DRAM-less NVMe SSD Controllers Announced

Marvell has announced the 88NV1140 and 88NV1120, the first DRAM-less NVMe SSD controllers for mass market mobile computing solutions with NANDEdge low-density parity check (LDPC) technology supporting TLC and 3D NAND. Marvell’s new performance-heavy controllers allow for small form factor SSD solutions, which can integrate into low-z-height tablets, Chrome devices, and the upcoming new 2-in-1 hybrid/detachable mobile PC platforms.

The small 8x8mm per package form factor of Marvell’s 88NV1140 and 88NV1120 allows for SSD drives as small as M.2 2230 (30 mm in length). In addition, the new controllers make way for the development of an NVMe BGA or SATA BGA SSD running on embedded SRAM through multiple-chip-package (MCP) integration with NAND. The 88NV1140 and 88NV1120 controllers also use 28 nm low-power CMOS process node technology, which enable Marvell to claim best-in-class active power, all the while supporting the low power modes (L1.2 for PCIe and DevSlp for SATA devices). Both new controllers use Marvell’s third-generation NANDEdge error-correction technology.

By developing single code for NANDEdge, SSD firmware developers have the ability to leverage one code to the other for advanced error-correcting technology in data integrity, endurance and reliability. Additionally, with Marvell’s use of NANDEdge LDPC technology, the controllers can support 15/16nm TLC and 3D NAND, which results in low enabling cost of TLC and 3D NAND. The NVMe design has also passed in-house SSD validation as well as third-party operating system and platform compatibility testing.

Marvell 88NV1140 and 88NV1120 features include:

88NV1140:
AHCI and NVMe support over PCIe Gen3x1
Fully hardware automated NVMe 1.1b support
Low power management (L1.2) design
88NV1120:
SATA 6Gb/s support
TA DevSlp support
88NV1140 and 88NV1120:
Powerful Dual core Cortex R5 CPU’s
Embedded SRAM with hardware accelerators to optimize IOPS performance
ONFI3 and Toggle2 NAND support
NANDEdge error-correction: 15nm TLC and 3D NAND support using LDPC technology to boost endurance and reliability
BGA SSD and M.2/2.5 slim form factor support with thermal optimization and small package size
28nm low power CMOS process

https://origin-www.marvell.com/storage/ssd/88NV1140-88NV1120/

In addition to Value-line SSD enabling, the 88NV1140/88NV1120 design is also optimized for Small Form Factor applications. By using 28nm CMOS process node technology, the controller is perfect for multiple-chip-package (MCP) integration running on embedded SRAM without external memory. It’s perfect for low-z-height or compact mobile devices looking for SSD performance, like premium tablet or 2-in-1 notebook. The standalone packed version also help enable modules as small as M.2 2230(3cm in length).

 

[cbn]

Genuinely curious, why is this a useful or interesting metric to sort by?

It is a form of cost cutting and I am interested to see the price of SSDs (particularly low capacity ones) fall. This with the caveat that these lower cost SSDs maintain good performance.

However at this point all consumer SSDs with DRAM-less controllers use MLC NAND.

Meanwhile, at the other end of the inexpensive spectrum are consumer SSDs with DRAM buffer, but use TLC NAND.

So we either get a pick of DRAM-less (cheaper) with more expensive NAND or DRAM-buffer (more expensive) controller with cheaper NAND.

This until DRAM-less SSD controllers and TLC come together, which would be the overall lowest cost option.

P.S. That Marvell DRAM-less controller with TLC support from the previous post is a just two channel device, so besides lacking DRAM it is probably also cheaper to make than controllers with four or more channels.

 

[cbn]

Another use for DRAM-less SSD controllers:

Hybrid drives like the Western Digital Blue 4TB SSHD with 8GB MLC NAND and DRAM-less JMF608 SSD controller.

(Thanks to Virtual Larry for pointing out the existence of this drive in the forum)

Here is a review at StorageReview:

http://www.storagereview.com/wd_blue_sshd_4tb_review

Here is the back of the PCB showing the chips, including the DRAM-less JMF608 SSD controller:

 

[cbn]

Phison S11 DRAM-less two channel SSD controller supporting TLC NAND due out 2H 2016:

http://www.custompcreview.com/news/...-nvme-1-2-s11-dram-less-ssd-controller/25854/

Phison also displayed the PS3111-S11 which is a new SATA controller designed for the low cost, entry level market. As an entry level product, the Phison S11 features a two channel, DRAM-less design. It’ll also support more advanced LDPC ECC algorithms. This should allow vendors to very cost effectively implement TLC NAND based solutions.

Rated performance on the Phison PS3111-S11 is up to 550 MB/s sequential reads and 500 MB/s sequential writes. Random read/write performance is rated at up to 100,000/90,000 IOPS. Maximum storage capacity is up to 1TB.

The Phison PS3111-S11 is expected to enter mass production in 2H2016.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Looks pretty good, hopefully we'll see 1TB TLC SSDs for $250 or less by 2016. (I'm hoping for $200.)

 

[cbn]

Looks pretty good, hopefully we'll see 1TB TLC SSDs for $250 or less by 2016. (I'm hoping for $200.)

Something else to think about:

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2443388

Manufacturer refurbished/recertified 960 GB Crucial M500 (uses Marvell SSD controller + DRAM cache + 2xnm planar MLC NAND) for $179.99.

That is kinda cheap and MLC NAND is known to be pretty tough.

So at some point the new upcoming drives with DRAM-less controllers and TLC V-NAND will probably have to compete (at some level) with stuff from the past (that is durable enough to survive).

For that reason, I actually like the idea of the price floor for SSDs dropping instead.

P.S. Worst cases scenario for a $20 64GB (or 32GB) TLC V-NAND with DRAM-less controller would be use as an Intel SRT cache drive (due to the potential high number of writes). So if the price floor drops I would hope whatever drives get produced could survive that test.

 

[Essence_of_War]

Thought this might be relevant for people interested in this thread:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/9942/...y-buffer-for-dramless-88nv1140-ssd-controller

The Host Memory Buffer (HMB) feature in NVMe 1.2 allows a drive to request exclusive access to a portion of the host system's RAM for the drive's private use. This kind of capability has been around forever in the GPU space under names like HyperMemory and TurboCache, where it served a similar purpose: to reduce or eliminate the dedicated RAM that needs to be included on peripheral devices.

...

At the low end of the SSD market, recent controller configurations have chosen instead to cut costs by not including any external DRAM. There are combined savings of die size and pin count for the controller in this configuration, as well as reduced PCB complexity for the drive and eliminating the DRAM chip from the bill of materials, which can add up to a competitive advantage in the product segments where performance is a secondary concern and every cent counts. Silicon Motion's DRAM-less SM2246XT controller has stolen some market share from their own already cheap SM2246EN, and in the TLC space almost everybody is moving toward DRAM-less options.

 

[PliotronX]

Does inclusion of the DRAM increase risk of data loss in a power cut (with or without caps)? More or less like cache on a spinner?

 

[Essence_of_War]

Does inclusion of the DRAM increase risk of data loss in a power cut (with or without caps)? More or less like cache on a spinner?

Certainly could be. A lot depends on exactly how the controller is utilizing main memory. If the FTL is being held in system RAM, that could be a debacle in a power-loss. I'd assume that controllers would be designed to avoid that, but who knows.

 

[redzo]

Because DRAM-less SSD designs are usually a bit cheaper. (Fewer chips, short BoM.)

They are also slower, though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ll3uipTO-4A

not cheap enough => zero reason to praise DRAM-less SSD God.

NAND is the main cost contributor. The reduction in cost/price has to come from the NAND itself.

 

[cbn]

Some new info on the Phison S11 (mentioned in post #10) from the manufacturer website:

http://www.phison.com/English/newProductView.asp?ID=259&SortID=63

Single core design and built on 40nm process technology.(Current Phison controllers, including the S10, are built on 55nm process technology)

The link also lists support for 1z nm MLC (in addition to 1z nm TLC and 3D Flash).

 

[cbn]

Here is one the drives that will use the Phison S11:

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/patriot-hellfire-viper-ssds,30963.html

Patriot's other new SSD is a bit of a mystery, but we will have more information later. The Viper SSD will feature a new Phison two-channel controller called S11. The controller is said to deliver up to 550 MB/s sequential read and 500 MB/s sequential write speeds. We should know more about the new drive in the coming months, but for now, Phison and Patriot are holding the details close to the vest in Vegas. You gotta know when to hold em and know when to fold em...

 

[cbn]

Another drive (Patriot Spark) that will use the Phison S11 controller:

https://www.pcper.com/news/Memory/Patriot-Computex-new-SODIMM-and-SSD

Patriot Announces New Spark SSD

TAIPEI, Taiwan – May 31, 2016 – Patriot, a leading manufacturer of high performance computer memory, SSDs, gaming peripherals, consumer flash storage solutions and mobile accessories, today announced its latest budget solid state drive (SSD), the Spark, aimed at offering consumers reliable performance at a price that won’t break the bank.

The Spark SSD will be available in capacities of 128GB, 256GB and 512GB to fulfill the needs of serious PC gamers storing large capacity games, content creators and everyday computer users. Utilizing the Phison S11 controller and TLC NAND, for a more budget friendly price, the Spark delivers on performance. With impressive read and write speeds for such an affordable drive, the Spark will reach sequential speeds of up to 555MB/s read and 500MB/s write to meet the standards of consumers looking to optimize screen time.

“The Spark is a perfect entry level drive for those users looking to add a boost to their system,“ said Les Henry, Patriot’s VP of Engineering. “As many companies are just now coming out with their first generation TLC SSDs, the Spark is Patriot’s second generation TLC SSD Line.”

The Spark SSD is Compatible with Windows® XP, Windows Vista®, Windows, 7, Windows® 8, Windows® 8.1, Windows® 10, Mac OS X, and Linux systems. Backed by Patriot’s award winning build quality and 3-year warranty; the Patriot Ignite will deliver one of the most reliable choices in SSDs.

Availability
The Spark SSD will be available for purchase, worldwide, starting in the 3rd Quarter of 2016 for a starting MSRP of $34.99USD for the 128GB, $56.99 for the 256GB and $104.99 for the 512GB. For more details on the Spark and other Patriot products visit: https://patriotmemory.com.

If that is planar TLC NAND (and I think it probably is) combining with a dram-less controller will be the first time this has ever happened.

 

[hojnikb]

Hopefully those won't die on a massive scale like blast.

 

[cbn]

Hopefully those won't die on a massive scale like blast.

Here is the Newegg listing for Patriot Blast:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?item=N82E16820220937

It does appear to have a good number of failures just like the Silicon Power S55:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820301256

(Both drives use Phison S10 controller which has a DRAM buffer but no LDPC error checking)

Not sure what TLC NAND Silicon Power S55 uses, but Patriot Blast has Micron 16nm 128 Gbit planar TLC

I wonder what is happening? Maybe Phison S10 and Micron TLC was not a good match? (Phison drives with Toshiba NAND have good survival rates as do drives like the Crucial BX200 which use SM2256 and Micron 16nm 128 Gbit planar TLC)

 

[cbn]

Another new DRAM-less controller from a new company called "Maxiotek" with the model number "MK8115". This will be used in the ADATA SU700 SSD which has Micron 3D TLC NAND.

http://techreport.com/news/30213/adata-shows-nvme-and-tlc-ssds-at-computex

Meanwhile, the company is also launching a new series of SSDs branded "Ultimate" that includes SU700, SU800, and SU900 models. Of these, the most interesting are the low-end SU700 models which Adata calls "HDD replacement" drives. They use Micron 3D TLC flash and a MK8115 controller from newcomer Maxiotek in a design that entirely lacks DRAM cache. Sequential performance is good, at 554MB/sec read and 529MB/sec write, while Adata's own numbers put random read performance at around 7,000 IOPS. Still, that's much faster than a hard disk. The SU700 should be the most affordable of Adata's line, too.

EDIT: According to SSDReview this Maxiotek controller is actually a rebranded Jmicron--> http://www.thessdreview.com/daily-n...marvell-based-nvme-ssds-computex-2016-update/

The Maxiotek MK 8115 is actually a JMicron controller branded under Maxiotek. Performance is very similar whether utilizing DRAM cache memory or not. This SSD should be seen as a very value oriented entry to the SSD scene, possibly even with the best prices available for any base level SSD sought by those migrating from the hard drive

 

[hojnikb]

Here is the Newegg listing for Patriot Blast:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?item=N82E16820220937

It does appear to have a good number of failures just like the Silicon Power S55:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820301256

(Both drives use Phison S10 controller which has a DRAM buffer but no LDPC error checking)

Not sure what TLC NAND Silicon Power S55 uses, but Patriot Blast has Micron 16nm 128 Gbit planar TLC

I wonder what is happening? Maybe Phison S10 and Micron TLC was not a good match? (Phison drives with Toshiba NAND have good survival rates as do drives like the Crucial BX200 which use SM2256 and Micron 16nm 128 Gbit planar TLC)

I believe firmware was to blame... :thumbsup:

 

[cbn]

I believe firmware was to blame... :thumbsup:

That makes sense, but do we have any examples of Phison S10 and Micron 16nm 128Gbit planar TLC where this didn't happen?

EDIT: The product page for Patriot Blast does list new firmware prominently.

From the 12/29/2016 Newegg review:

This review is from: Patriot Blast 2.5" 240GB SATA III Internal Solid State Drive (SSD) PBT240GS25SSDBK

Pros: I would say price, but that only refers to the initial output of cash as this thing will cost you time, frustration and return shipping expenses, So realistically NONE.

Cons: After a few minutes of researching via grooglie (you know what I mean), reviews on other e-retailers forums showed this to be a future brick. This model uses inferior nand technology (TLC) coupled with an SMI controller. Read other reviews..."Died after 2 Days", "Died after 2 months", etc...

Other Thoughts: The long and short of it is MLC>TLC Nand technologies as well as PhisonS10>SMI controllers. Save yourself future frustration and some money as this drive will eventually sit in a drawer or a landfill.

Manufacturer Response:

Dear Joseph S.

Thank you for your purchase and review of our Blast 240GB. It is unfortunate to hear that you had some issues with the drive no longer being detected. Please e-mail us: support@patriotmem.com and we'll be glad to setup a replacement for the drive. For future reference, we would also recommend flashing the firmware for the drive prior to using it. We have recently released a firmware which addresses drive stability.

Best Regards,
Jordan
Patriot Memory Support

 

[cbn]

Silicon Motion SM2258XT is a dram-less version of the SM2258 and according to the product brief in the link below it does support planar TLC NAND in addition to 3D NAND :

http://www.siliconmotion.com/A3.2_Partnumber_Detail.php?sn=7