"Liberty and Justice for all" - not so, says 10yo

[shadow9d9]

A 10 year old can not possibly understand sexual orientation or anything like that yet. He's basically just parroting the nonsense that his parents have fed him for years. He's well within his rights though, so more power to him if he wants to be an outcast.

Typical underestimating of youth from those so far removed from youth that their perceptions are completely skewed. PROTECT THE CHILDREN! THEY ARE ALL BRAINDEAD!

 

[shadow9d9]

Baloney. This kid supposedly is so bothered by the discrimination against gays, but the fact is he can't possibly understand the nature of the supposed discrimination. It's just the stuff his parents fed him. The reality is that the same liberty and justice for all in the pledge that he refuses to stand up for also gives him the right to do so. No problem there, but lets not be naive enough to think that this is the kid thinking this crap up -- it's his idiot parents.

A 10 year old cannot understand that gay people are not allowed to marry other gay people? It is as simple as that.. no other understanding is needed.

Idiot parents? AHAHAHAHAHA. Teaching the idea of equal rights to their kids!?!?!? What IDIOTS!

 

[shadow9d9]

I know that kids don't always get their ideology from their parents, I said so explicitly in my previous posts. While your mileage may vary, when we are talking about society as a whole it is about as close to a proven fact as you get in social science. I would also wager that you share more ideology with your parents than you might think as people tend to focus on the things they disagree with and forget the large amount of things that they do.

Kids rebel from their parents all the time, but you guys really don't have to take my word for this. There has been a LOT of research done on partisan ID transmission over the years.

The only proven fact is that humans are weak minded and tend to follow rather than think for themselves.

THAT is why you find partisan ID transmissions...

 

[fskimospy]

The only proven fact is that humans are weak minded and tend to follow rather than think for themselves.

THAT is why you find partisan ID transmissions...

Well actually if you read some of the more recent research there appears to be a strong heritable link as well. People get their values from their parents and generally that's not a bad thing. I believe most people like to think they are far freer thinkers than they really are.

 

[fskimospy]

Don't fool yourself...evolution does not preclude the existence of a Creator.

Well nothing precludes the existence of the Creator, such a thing would not be possible. What evolution does is for the first time provide an effective and robust framework for understanding human existence that does not require a creator, and that was the point of his post.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Well nothing precludes the existence of the Creator, such a thing would not be possible. What evolution does is for the first time provide an effective and robust framework for understanding human existence that does not require a creator, and that was the point of his post.

Evolution gives people a way to rationalize a world view they want to believe...it does absolutely NOTHING to prove or disprove the existence of a Creator. Human beings are very creative and resourceful creatures...never underestimate their ability to rationalize fiction from fact.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

Oh, he can't see the discrimination?

Ask Atomic Playboy about that.

That you can't comprehend how a ten year old child can understand such simple concepts as right and wrong says a lot about you... Well mostly it says "i can't understand that so how can he?"

When I was ten, I was in an after school program. One day, one of the other boys taught us a new game he had just learned; smear the queer. I told him he shouldn't say things like that; I had gay parents, and the idea of "smear the queer" being a game was reprehensible. He said it was just a game, and I should get over it. We got into a heated argument about it, in which I called him an idiot and a homophobe, and was subsequently placed in time-out while the other kids went and played the game. Damned if it didn't look like a lot of fun, too... but I was too busy fuming that the daycare worker would take his side when he was obviously being a bigot with his "queer smearing" game.

To say that 10-year-olds are incapable of arriving at these conclusions on their own is ridiculous. Yes, my lesbian mothers made me aware of the discrimination that people may face for being gay. But they didn't tell me there was a game called "smear the queer." They didn't tell me to stand up against bigotry. They told me to try and get along with people regardless of our differences. I didn't listen particularly well at that age. But regardless of their influence, I knew that a game called "smear the queer" was inherently wrong, not just because it attacked my family, but because it spoke to the basest of human actions; the desire to harm people who are different.

Kudos to this kid for standing up for what he believes in.

 

[SirStev0]

When I was ten, I was in an after school program. One day, one of the other boys taught us a new game he had just learned; smear the queer. I told him he shouldn't say things like that; I had gay parents, and the idea of "smear the queer" being a game was reprehensible. He said it was just a game, and I should get over it. We got into a heated argument about it, in which I called him an idiot and a homophobe, and was subsequently placed in time-out while the other kids went and played the game. Damned if it didn't look like a lot of fun, too... but I was too busy fuming that the daycare worker would take his side when he was obviously being a bigot with his "queer smearing" game.

To say that 10-year-olds are incapable of arriving at these conclusions on their own is ridiculous. Yes, my lesbian mothers made me aware of the discrimination that people may face for being gay. But they didn't tell me there was a game called "smear the queer." They didn't tell me to stand up against bigotry. They told me to try and get along with people regardless of our differences. I didn't listen particularly well at that age. But regardless of their influence, I knew that a game called "smear the queer" was inherently wrong, not just because it attacked my family, but because it spoke to the basest of human actions; the desire to harm people who are different.

Kudos to this kid for standing up for what he believes in.

Just wait any sec a repugnant will come in to tell you that you were indoctrinated. Not their kids though, they get their bigot ideas on their own.

 

[jonks]

Evolution gives people a way to rationalize a world view they want to believe...it does absolutely NOTHING to prove or disprove the existence of a Creator. Human beings are very creative and resourceful creatures...never underestimate their ability to rationalize fiction from fact.

Evolution is a scientific theory. It is the (still evolving) result of pieced together evidence, not a concept conjured up first for which evidence is subsequently sought after in support. It doesn't rationalize a world view any more than the theory of gravity rationalizes why things seem to drop when you let go of them. Evolution doesn't address the question of a creator of the universe. Evolution does however disprove the asserttion of a young earth/ID creator in which all animals spontaneously popped into existence in their current form a few thousand years ago. Even the pope acknowledges that and doesn't seem to have a problem with it.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

When I was ten, I was in an after school program. One day, one of the other boys taught us a new game he had just learned; smear the queer. I told him he shouldn't say things like that; I had gay parents, and the idea of "smear the queer" being a game was reprehensible. He said it was just a game, and I should get over it. We got into a heated argument about it, in which I called him an idiot and a homophobe, and was subsequently placed in time-out while the other kids went and played the game. Damned if it didn't look like a lot of fun, too... but I was too busy fuming that the daycare worker would take his side when he was obviously being a bigot with his "queer smearing" game.

To say that 10-year-olds are incapable of arriving at these conclusions on their own is ridiculous. Yes, my lesbian mothers made me aware of the discrimination that people may face for being gay. But they didn't tell me there was a game called "smear the queer." They didn't tell me to stand up against bigotry. They told me to try and get along with people regardless of our differences. I didn't listen particularly well at that age. But regardless of their influence, I knew that a game called "smear the queer" was inherently wrong, not just because it attacked my family, but because it spoke to the basest of human actions; the desire to harm people who are different.

Kudos to this kid for standing up for what he believes in.

Nice post. The part bolded above struck a chord with me as a lot of that goes on here in this forum. There is little or no effort to understand those with different ideologies...just incessant regurgitation of strawman stereotypes and childish name calling. Not much different than 5th graders playing "smear the queer"...we haven't evolved very much have we?

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Evolution is a scientific theory. It is the (still evolving) result of pieced together evidence, not a concept conjured up first for which evidence is subsequently sought after in support. It doesn't rationalize a world view any more than the theory of gravity rationalizes why things seem to drop when you let go of them. Evolution doesn't address the question of a creator of the universe. Evolution does however disprove the asserttion of a young earth/ID creator in which all animals spontaneously popped into existence in their current form a few thousand years ago. Even the pope acknowledges that and doesn't seem to have a problem with it.

Isn't it nice to know that science and religion can coexist...thanks for pointing that out.

 

[jonks]

Isn't it nice to know that science and religion can coexist...thanks for pointing that out.

Where neither broaches the other's demesne, they can. Unfortunately, too often one of them stretches beyond its scope to impose upon the other to the detriment of both.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Where neither broaches the other's demesne, they can. Unfortunately, too often one of them stretches beyond its scope to impose upon the other to the detriment of both.

And never lose sight of what we sometimes regard as 'fact'...possibly isn't fact. Ardi being a recent example of this...I assume that you know what I'm talking about.

 

[fskimospy]

Evolution gives people a way to rationalize a world view they want to believe...it does absolutely NOTHING to prove or disprove the existence of a Creator. Human beings are very creative and resourceful creatures...never underestimate their ability to rationalize fiction from fact.

Uhmm, I specifically stated it does nothing to prove or disprove a creator. It does not require one to work so it certainly does nothing to prove it, and a creator could never be disproven. (as such a concept is impossible by definition)

Evolution may give some people a way to rationalize a world view they want to believe, but that's irrelevant. Evolution is either true or it isn't, and all evidence points to that it is true. While a diminished capacity to believe in various creation myths may stem from the acceptance of this objective scientific fact, that is a rational response to evidence contradicting those myths.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Uhmm, I specifically stated it does nothing to prove or disprove a creator. It does not require one to work so it certainly does nothing to prove it, and a creator could never be disproven. (as such a concept is impossible by definition)

Evolution may give some people a way to rationalize a world view they want to believe, but that's irrelevant. Evolution is either true or it isn't, and all evidence points to that it is true. While a diminished capacity to believe in various creation myths may stem from the acceptance of this objective scientific fact, that is a rational response to evidence contradicting those myths.

My point is relevant....many people use evolution to rationalize their world view. Some would say that the creation 'myths' you perceive are in fact allegories. As allegories, I'm sure you can understand the implications and the folly of alleging 'contradictions'. As previously stated, nothing is proved or disproved by evolution...there are no contradictions...unless you want them to exist...which is exactly my point.

 

[fskimospy]

My point is relevant....many people use evolution to rationalize their world view. Some would say that the creation 'myths' you perceive are in fact allegories. As allegories, I'm sure you can understand the implications and the folly of alleging 'contradictions'. As previously stated, nothing is proved or disproved by evolution...there are no contradictions...unless you want them to exist...which is exactly my point.

Huh? I most certainly wouldn't say that at all. SOME people choose to interpret those stories are allegorical, but large minorities (about 35% according to Pew Research) view the bible as literal fact. So no, there is no folly in alleging contradictions to those people. (who by the way constitute the majority of evangelical Christians)

Your point is reliant upon the fact that everyone else takes your view of the bible as an allegory. (I assume) This is simply not the case... so while evolution may not have an effect on YOUR belief structure, it most certainly does on others. That's why so many people are against it.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Huh? I most certainly wouldn't say that at all. SOME people choose to interpret those stories are allegorical, but large minorities (about 35% according to Pew Research) view the bible as literal fact. So no, there is no folly in alleging contradictions to those people. (who by the way constitute the majority of evangelical Christians)

Your point is reliant upon the fact that everyone else takes your view of the bible as an allegory. (I assume) This is simply not the case... so while evolution may not have an effect on YOUR belief structure, it most certainly does on others. That's why so many people are against it.

Look…I'm not going to argue with you about what some minority groups think. How stupid is that? The vast majority view the creation story as allegory. I've derailed this thread enough…my apologies to the OP. Eskimospy, perhaps we can continue this discussion in a more appropriate thread at some point.

 

[shadow9d9]

How did this turn into a religious discussion?

 

[jonks]

bump for CNN video with the kid

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOcAWn7Rp9s

This kid is obviously very bright. His vocabulary is way above 10 year old standard. Malice? Solemn? Discriminatory? I think it's fairly clear at this point that this was his own idea, as he said he has gay friends/family and likely heard about the gay marriage discussion.

 

[Vic]

Nice to see parents exploit their kid for a political agenda.

I'm curious, how is it that you think we stop gays from marrying each other in the first place?

 

[brblx]

How did this turn into a religious discussion?

the concept of 'seperation of church and state' is lost on current repubs. they feel that their religious ideals should guide government policy.

marriage as known by the state != marriage as known by the church. you want to keep gays out of your church, so be it, i doubt many would want to attend, anyway. but this bullshit with believing their fairy tales influence the law needs to stop.

we have laws against murder for the good of society, not because god wrote it on a rock.

 

[Double Trouble]

the concept of 'seperation of church and state' is lost on current repubs. they feel that their religious ideals should guide government policy.

marriage as known by the state != marriage as known by the church. you want to keep gays out of your church, so be it, i doubt many would want to attend, anyway. but this bullshit with believing their fairy tales influence the law needs to stop.

we have laws against murder for the good of society, not because god wrote it on a rock.

You'd have more credibility if you could spell "separation" correctly

You seem to have trouble with the concept of the people deciding what the laws of the country should be. Fairy tale or not, if the people of the country want something to be the law, they have the right to do so. They can change the constitution if need be.