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Libertarians

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dank69 said:
... I've even seen libertarians arguing against abortion ffs, lots of them. ...
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Well maybe it's because they believe the fetus is a baby human with rights as an individual.

Individual freedom and rights is what Libertarianism is about, you know?
 
I used to be more libertarian, but I grew up and realized humans by nature seem to be pretty shitty to each other. To me that is where government steps in to control people from taking advantage of other people. especially from a business aspect. Taxes are a necessary burden civilized society has to come to grips with.

now I’m more progressive and have realized thinking and doing things the old ways just won’t cut it going into the future. I’m a forward thinker now.
 
soulcougher73 said:
I used to be more libertarian, but I grew up and realized humans by nature seem to be pretty shitty to each other. To me that is where government steps in to control people from taking advantage of other people. especially from a business aspect. Taxes are a necessary burden civilized society has to come to grips with.

now I’m more progressive and have realized thinking and doing things the old ways just won’t cut it going into the future. I’m a forward thinker now.
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I went conservative > libertarian > progressive. Same reasoning as you for the most part. I'm socially liberal, IMO (was definitely not half my life ago), and less fiscally conservative if it seems short sighted. Like cutting off food supply but then spending money on prisons to throw all the criminal food thieves into, where were just gonna feed them anyways.
 
Ichinisan said:
Well maybe it's because they believe the fetus is a baby human with rights as an individual.

Individual freedom and rights is what Libertarianism is about, you know?
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I know that is the logic they like to use but no individual has the right to live inside another individual.
 
soulcougher73 said:
I used to be more libertarian, but I grew up and realized humans by nature seem to be pretty shitty to each other. To me that is where government steps in to control people from taking advantage of other people. especially from a business aspect. Taxes are a necessary burden civilized society has to come to grips with.

now I’m more progressive and have realized thinking and doing things the old ways just won’t cut it going into the future. I’m a forward thinker now.
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It should not be the government's responsibility to protect me from being taken advantage of. Why don't I just leave aaaaaall my personal responsibilities on the government and keep no responsibilities or rights for myself?
 
dank69 said:
Yeah that is more of an anarchist than just libertarian. Most libertarians these days are just conservatives that are fed up with GOP warmongering. I've even seen libertarians arguing against abortion ffs, lots of them. Basically it's just an excuse to shit on any part of government they disagree with, but that logic flies right out the window when it comes to people doing things they don't agree with.
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That's not even close to being correct. A libertarian is just as likely to be a former liberal who has become more successful and is wondering why his tax burden is now so high. Or a former union zealot who now operates his own business and wants the government to stay out of how he runs it. Or any of a a trillion more scenarios. A Libertarian is pretty much any person of any status and any former political leaning who has butted head with a bloated, overly powerful government whose purpose seems more and more to be to protect itself and to grant itself more power.
 
Ichinisan said:
It should not be the government's responsibility to protect me from being taken advantage of. Why don't I just leave aaaaaall my personal responsibilities on the government and keep no responsibilities or rights for myself?
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Haha, all or nothing. This is how we end up where we are today, no middle ground.
 
dank69 said:
I know that is the logic they like to use but no individual has the right to live inside another individual.
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In nearly all cases, they had the ability to prevent that dilemma from ever happening. Perhaps only the exceptions should even be debated.

[edit]

Or cases where birth could harm the mother, obviously.
 
OccamsToothbrush said:
That's not even close to being correct. A libertarian is just as likely to be a former liberal who has become more successful and is wondering why his tax burden is now so high. Or a former union zealot who now operates his own business and wants the government to stay out of how he runs it. Or any of a a trillion more scenarios. A Libertarian is pretty much any person of any status and any former political leaning who has butted head with a bloated, overly powerful government whose purpose seems more and more to be to protect itself and to grant itself more power.
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As a libertarian leaning liberal, I know what libertarian is supposed to mean. I am speaking about what I have seen from many people claiming to be libertarians.
 
Ichinisan said:
In nearly all cases, they had the ability to prevent that dilemma from ever happening. Perhaps only the exceptions should even be debated.
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Okay so how would a libertarian go about verifying that all preventative measures were taken to prevent pregnancy?
 
Ichinisan said:
It should not be the government's responsibility to protect me from being taken advantage of. Why don't I just leave aaaaaall my personal responsibilities on the government and keep no responsibilities or rights for myself?
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Because the smart people of the world have realized the world works better when working together with a shared sense of purpose. And then the others, like you, prefer wild Wild West anarchy, which we had for awhile but moved past, as it tended not to work out so well for many people.

That is an odd “right” you want by the way.
 
soulcougher73 said:
Because the smart people of the world have realized the world works better when working together with a shared sense of purpose. And then the others, like you, prefer wild Wild West anarchy, which we had for awhile but moved past, as it tended not to work out so well for many people.

That is an odd “right” you want by the way.
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No. *I* would prefer to be the one working with others in my community.

Yes, there's a trade-off between safety and freedom. The government should protect us from foreign threats and otherwise allow us to be free (and unsafe). My personal health and safety is my personal responsibility, but that doesn't mean I won't be generous with those around me.
 
mikeymikec said:
I had a discussion on FB recently with a self-professed libertarian and I'm just wondering if his views were about average for libertarians in peoples' experiences here or not.

1 - All taxes = theft
2 - The state should not be able to require the people they work for to abide by any code of conduct whatsoever.
3 - Contributions to public services should be entirely voluntary and an individual not paying for specific services simply has those services withdrawn.

I think that was about it. This discussion was a couple of weeks ago and the guy blocked me on FB so I can't refer back to it. Any attempt to point any of a multitude of glaring flaws in his views was met with even more absurdity such as "most crimes are victimless crimes anyway" (in response to concerns about how public order is supposed to be maintained with a virtually non-existent budget).
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These sound like the political ideology of our original founding fathers, the primitive man in the Paleolithic.
 
Ichinisan said:
No. *I* would prefer to be the one working with others in my community.

Yes, there's a trade-off between safety and freedom. The government should protect us from foreign threats and otherwise allow us to be free (and unsafe). My personal health and safety is my personal responsibility, but that doesn't mean I won't be generous with those around me.
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So what about local threats and fraud, and not mentioned "Patent Medicines" and unsafe food for some examples?
en.wikipedia.org

Patent medicine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
en.wikipedia.org

Pure Food and Drug Act - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
 
Jaskalas said:
Don't know that we have many Libertarians on here, I myself identify closely with the... idea, but not the execution of it.

"Maximum extent of liberty as possible". Eh, I might change that to "as is safe and plausible". Because we do need government, we do need safe guards. And we do need a massive economic safety net to restore Capitalism and protect against a self cannibalizing free market. Though my approach to the market is Basic Income, with ZERO strings attached. No restrictions, no restraints on it. Just "Here is your monthly income, do what you will". IMO, that is a fairly Libertarian version of a social safety net, because my approach does not dictate to people and businesses with thousand page forms on how to conduct business or how to spend their money. Unlike examples of Europe, which "Moderates" around here tend to support as their half arsed solutions.

I want people to be largely free, but I note that freedom requires some effort to maintain. Economically, a person with slave wages is NOT free. If they lack the liquidity to act on their own agency in life. Foxcon workers in China do not need suicide nets because they are free. If people are poor enough, they are as trapped as slaves. I recognize this, and I seek to break those chains... via government "redistribution".

If granting freedom to the masses via the means of government means I am not "Libertarian", so be it, but I strive for the maximum liberty as is safe and plausible.

Come at me, Libertarians!
  1. Taxes are a necessary trade off.
  2. Employer code of conduct? Negotiable. I would only want what is deemed necessary, and drawing that line is ripe for interpretation and disagreement.
  3. If charity worked, people wouldn't face bankruptcy or need insurance. See #1, cause this sounds like a simple re-wording of taxation.
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I pretty closely identify with libertarian.

I don't live by the stupid statement "taxes are theft". It's a necessary evil for certain things in life. The libertarian aspect (IMHO) is to minimize taxes because government (as seen with TONS of industries in the past) run things horribly.

It's just simply a fact that when the free-market is able to compete, they do it more efficiently than the government ever will because they have something to fight for. They have a market to compete in. They have a reason to develop further and R&D more.

Libertarian also means no exemptions (or exceptions) for shit like religion. I don't care if you worship a flying spaghetti monster or some random dude that supposedly existed thousands of years ago, pay taxes just like everyone else.


Used to love what folks like Ron Paul stood for - but then his stupid son Rand had to fuck things up and look dumb on many issues.
 
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I’ve never met a libertarian who was actually a libertarian. In fact the only person I know of who was consistent in their beliefs and who could articulate libertarian values was Ron Paul. I wouldn’t even consider his son to be a libertarian.

Most people I’ve met who say they are libertarian fall into two camps; they are basically anarchists or they are republicans who support homosexuality and weed.
 
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