Liberalism. Holding down standards in the name of diversity

[michal1980]

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/jan/30/nyc-school-cuts-popular-gifted-program-over-lack-d/

NYC schools are ending gifted programs, because they lack diversity.

They claim that all kids can be thought to the same high level in one class room.


Why am I not surprised? Liberals hate people that excel, they must be brought down, and held back so that everyone can get a 'fair' chance.

Instead of trying to challenge the smartest kids, we must put them in dumbed down classes, because its not fair there aren't enough, black or Hispanic kids that are also smart.

 

[Moonbeam]

You can stop this by voting for more taxes for education. We can get one teacher per child.

 

[Engineer]

Yes, I agree on certain aspects that everyone shouldn't be in the same classroom. To me, it's everyone held behind. On a side note, the damn liberal that signed 'No Child Left Behind' should be kicked in the nuts (heh).

Yes, I think that law is a huge downfall to US schools - see it every single day.

 

[theeedude]

I think kindergarten is too early to separate students into gifted and ungifted groups. It's a self fulfilling prophecy more than a reflection of the students' true potential at that point.

 

[TreVader]

As somebody who was placed in GATE in 2nd grade, I think it's ludicrous to separate kids based on a few test scores. You end up telling everybody in the class "These are the smart kids, the special kids, the talented kids. The rest of you, well, we hope for the best but we're not holding our breath".


If you just make the classes good enough, all the kids will get a good education and the best will still excel. But instead of spending money on improving schools, we give tax cuts to the 1%, let oil companies destroy the environment while making off like bandits, and throw countless billions into stealth fighters and other boondoggles that end up being totally useless for the pointless wars our military industrial complex starts.

 

[Engineer]

As somebody who was placed in GATE in 2nd grade, I think it's ludicrous to separate kids based on a few test scores. You end up telling everybody in the class "These are the smart kids, the special kids, the talented kids. The rest of you, well, we hope for the best but we're not holding our breath".

When you start placing every kid in the same class, with no exception, you're just asking to pull everyone backwards. When you have autistic kids, who have no idea where they are in the world, in with other kids and the autistic kids are jumping on the desks, throwing stuff and running out of the classroom, what are the other kids learning at that point? That it's OK to do the same thing? They certainly aren't learning anything of use in society. And yes, that's happening in schools across the US - don't kid yourself that it isn't.

Your one size fits all is a recipe for failure. Again, I see and hear about it every single day.

 

[Chaotic42]

I was in those special classes as a kid. I think they were called Spirit or something to that effect. Anyway, they were comfortable (we had couches, chairs, and snacks), informal (we had lots of discussion and group projects), and fun (we invested fake money in stocks, learned to throw cast nets as part of a physics lesson, "programmed" our teacher to make a sandwich to learn about algorithms).

I've maintained that if school was more like that for everyone, more kids would enjoy school and actually get something out of it. Of course that costs money and if you ask the voters in my state, the "damned lazy overpaid teachers" are the problem and we need to slash school funding like it's going out of style.

 

[Engineer]

if you ask the voters in my state, the "damned lazy overpaid teachers" are the problem and we need to slash school funding like it's going out of style.

I agree on that too. Teachers are being pushed from both ends - bitched at because they get EVERYONE to teach and have to teach them ALL to the same level and then are told that they (teachers) are lazy and not worth the money. Most people have no idea what a teacher goes through day in and day out, including foolish laws like no child left behind.

 

[theeedude]

The other problem is that if you separate kids into gifted and ungifted at age 5 and put them on different trajectories in life, that puts intense pressure on parents to make their child look "gifted" by the time they are 5. Fake it till you make it. Which means that these kids are going to be studying from age 3-4 and up, and never get to experience a real childhood at all. At the point of kindergarten, you'll simply be separating kids whose parents had the resources to hire tutors to make their kids look "gifted" from kids whose didn't.
It's far better to put kids into the same environment first, then see who rises to the top, before determining who is actually gifted and who isn't.

 

[theeedude]

When you start placing every kid in the same class, with no exception, you're just asking to pull everyone backwards. When you have autistic kids, who have no idea where they are in the world, in with other kids and the autistic kids are jumping on the desks, throwing stuff and running out of the classroom, what are the other kids learning at that point? That it's OK to do the same thing? They certainly aren't learning anything of use in society. And yes, that's happening in schools across the US - don't kid yourself that it isn't.

Your one size fits all is a recipe for failure. Again, I see and hear about it every single day.

If a kid has a diagnosed developmental disorder, that's different. He should be in a special environment for his specific needs. We are talking about segregating healthy kids at age 5 based on how supposedly "gifted" they are before they even get to preschool. At that age, their perceived "giftedness" is much more dependent on their pre-K education then their natural gifts.

 

[Engineer]

It's far better to put kids into the same environment first, then see who rises to the top, before determining who is actually gifted and who isn't.

I don't have a problem with that in 'most' cases, but when you clearly have children (such as autistic children) that cannot function at even the most basic level (even to the point of having the teachers/aids clean their bottoms because they use the bathroom on themselves), they need to be either in a separate program or at home, period.

If a kid has a diagnosed developmental disorder, that's different. He should be in a special environment for his specific needs. We are talking about segregating healthy kids at age 5 based on how supposedly "gifted" they are before they even get to preschool. At that age, their perceived "giftedness" is much more dependent on their pre-K education then their natural gifts.

You were typing this as I typed the above. Yes, what I typed is happening (at least here) and I see/hear about it year in/year out. As for what You typed, I can agree on on that.

 

[Thebobo]

Washington times is still around wow.

 

[theeedude]

I don't have a problem with that in 'most' cases, but when you clearly have children (such as autistic children) that cannot function at even the most basic level (even to the point of having the teachers/aids clean their bottoms because they use the bathroom on themselves), they need to be either in a separate program or at home, period.



You were typing this as I typed the above. Yes, what I typed is happening (at least here) and I see/hear about it year in/year out. As for what You typed, I can agree on on that.

I think we are in agreement, special needs kids need special education. But let the other kids start on a level playing field and prove their "giftedness" before they get special treatment. If a child is truly gifted, it shouldn't be too difficult.

 

[theeedude]

Washington times is still around wow.

It's never made money, but Moonies keep it afloat.

 

[Matt1970]

They didn't start till 4th grade in our school. They only took one student from each classroom. I scored second in my classroom and a lot higher than some of the other ones that were selected but oh well. That's just another lesson. Life isn't fair. But lets just keep that lesson away from kids as long as we can huh? It has been working out so well lately.

 

[theeedude]

They didn't start till 4th grade in our school. They only took one student from each classroom. I scored second in my classroom and a lot higher than some of the other ones that were selected but oh well. That's just another lesson. Life isn't fair. But lets just keep that lesson away from kids as long as we can huh? It has been working out so well lately.

Interesting to see progression of conservative thinking. First they were claiming to believe in equal opportunity, but not equal results. Now it's fvck equal opportunity too, life isn't fair, let teach kids that in kindergarten.

 

[Jaskalas]

I was in those special classes as a kid. I think they were called Spirit or something to that effect. Anyway, they were comfortable (we had couches, chairs, and snacks), informal (we had lots of discussion and group projects), and fun (we invested fake money in stocks, learned to throw cast nets as part of a physics lesson, "programmed" our teacher to make a sandwich to learn about algorithms).

I've maintained that if school was more like that for everyone, more kids would enjoy school and actually get something out of it. Of course that costs money and if you ask the voters in my state, the "damned lazy overpaid teachers" are the problem and we need to slash school funding like it's going out of style.

It might be different if your suggestion was actually presented. Instead what we get is higher taxes for higher salaries to maintain the status quo.

 

[Jhhnn]

Interesting to see progression of conservative thinking. First they were claiming to believe in equal opportunity, but not equal results. Now it's fvck equal opportunity too, life isn't fair, let teach kids that in kindergarten.

Yeh, but they can't possibly see that, conditioning by propaganda being what it is.

 

[glenn1]

You can stop this by voting for more taxes for education. We can get one teacher per child.

Fuck that. Teachers oppose pay for performance, arguing they can't be held accountable for poor results due to lack of parental involvement and other factors. Yet when their kids do well, they claim credit for the out-performance. You can't have it both ways, and there's no reason to dump more money into an opaque system where its workers argue its impossible to evaluate their performance.

 

[1prophet]

We can run a race in a manner that allows us to win, but for various reasons most want to get rewarded for just going through the motions today.

When one is competing in a predominately semi closed economy like in the past you might be able to get away with practices such as this,

but in this Global economy be prepared to be run over by countries that will put up their best while Americans are trying to figure out how to make it fair for everyone while holding back those with the ability to excel.

 

[Matt1970]

Interesting to see progression of conservative thinking. First they were claiming to believe in equal opportunity, but not equal results. Now it's fvck equal opportunity too, life isn't fair, let teach kids that in kindergarten.

We always believe in equal opportunity. Opportunity is a chance. When you guarantee equal results, there is no chance involved. I love the liberal mentality though. Hold back those that could excel as it is unfair to those who can't.

 

[Moonbeam]

Fuck that. Teachers oppose pay for performance, arguing they can't be held accountable for poor results due to lack of parental involvement and other factors. Yet when their kids do well, they claim credit for the out-performance. You can't have it both ways, and there's no reason to dump more money into an opaque system where its workers argue its impossible to evaluate their performance.

I understand your point but neither can we allow somebody with your low level thinking be the type to evaluate what makes for a competent teacher. That is a huge and complex field that requires deep experience and expertise, basically liberal strengths.

 

[schmuckley]

That's a shame;The Gifted program is a good thing.I'm very glad most of the country is not as "progressive" :cough: "regressive" as NewYork.I do believe they take in enough taxes there.Maybe one less lavish Board of Education Administrative party or redecorating of their building would provide enough funds.

 

[Moonbeam]

We always believe in equal opportunity. Opportunity is a chance. When you guarantee equal results, there is no chance involved. I love the liberal mentality though. Hold back those that could excel as it is unfair to those who can't.

You hold yourself back by self imposed imbecility. When the chance of opportunity falls below the number seeking it you have failed society. You don't guarantee equal results, you open doors that limit people's thinking and make them afraid to fail. You guarantee there is opportunity by how you structure society. You are punching delusions you have in your head, not saying anything that means anything. You regurgitate doctrine, you don't think. If you have a market economy which requires work to succeed, there has to be work that needs doing. If not people are simply worthless in an economic sense. That's not a system that will survive the empty bellies of the poor.

 

[Matt1970]

You hold yourself back by self imposed imbecility. When the chance of opportunity falls below the number seeking it you have failed society. You don't guarantee equal results, you open doors that limit people's thinking and make them afraid to fail. You guarantee there is opportunity by how you structure society. You are punching delusions you have in your head, not saying anything that means anything. You regurgitate doctrine, you don't think. If you have a market economy which requires work to succeed, there has to be work that needs doing. If not people are simply worthless in an economic sense. That's not a system that will survive the empty bellies of the poor.

Blah Blah Blah, Blah Blah Blah Blah