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Liberal reasons not to celebrate Christmas.
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glenn1
Lifer
You can call me a moron if you want, doesn't bother me in the least. I doubt you can call me anything I wasn't already called in the military once upon a time 😉 We just have a difference of opinion on this. Mine is that I find it unlikely that the truly pious Christian types out there took a look at things and said, "hey, how can we commericalize these Holy Days and make some money off it?" For example, while I'm not Catholic I don't ever remember seeing Pope John Paul II announcing naming rights to the Vatican or giving mass and seeing a big sign under his balcony saying "sponsored by Nextel."
Tattle tale...you printed it on this site in black and white for all to see-I am merely drawing attention to a few specific words quoted from YOUR post which clearly violate forum rules...
also I don't notice him calling anyone a "moron"....mind pointing out what you find offensive or are you just a big baby 🙂
What a bunch of loaded BS, first of all your quoting/internet skills suck..secondly where does "killing" people have any mention at ALL in the OP, instead it was something the biased nutjob of a thread starter interjected a few threads down.....
with re. to your somewhat valid questions, as to celebrating pagan ritual..nope as long as people enjoy it.
The only thing I agree with is the fixation on getting stuff but as I said before shouldn't the Jews then be accosted for Hanukkah as I have known more than a few who look forward to eight days of gifts.... Jesus wouldn't be against having a good time in celebration of his life.... and IMHO Christmas is a good time.
I spend more on others at christmas than I do on myself all year round. The problem becomes that I set an expectation for whether I need something throughout the year. "Do I need this? Well I'd like it, but I don't need it, pass". But then christmas comes around and you feel obligated to get every person exactly what they want regardless of whether they actually need it.
Then there are the christmas parties and work crap that goes on. I would deffinitely agree that christmas is the most stressfull time of the year.
Personally, I think christmas would be a better holiday if you took the gift giving out of it. Get away from the materialistic theme and just have a holiday like Thanksgiving, which is a much more relaxed and fun holiday, IMO.
Then there are the christmas parties and work crap that goes on. I would deffinitely agree that christmas is the most stressfull time of the year.
Personally, I think christmas would be a better holiday if you took the gift giving out of it. Get away from the materialistic theme and just have a holiday like Thanksgiving, which is a much more relaxed and fun holiday, IMO.
Pliablemoose
Lifer
😀
imported_Condor
Diamond Member
So I tolerate listening to RAP music on TV and in the malls. If you don't like Christmas, just ignore it like I do the RAP music and for Santa's sake: STOP WHINING!
I had an aunt who was Russian Orthodox IIRC. She celebrated Christmas on January 6, the Feast of the Epiphany. She really did prepare a feast (and that woman could cook), and gifts were exchanged on that date.
This seems to me to be a reasonable alternative for people who don't want to the shop 'till they drop in the Christmas crowds and spend a forutne. After Christmas bargains are everywhere and the crowds are generally long gone. That combination might entice the bah humbugs to join in the festivities even if it is 12 days late.
Or at least it might stop their complaining and spoiling the Christmas spirit.
Merry Christmas everyone, no matter how you choose to celebrate or not celebrate. Happy Hannukah, Kwansa, or Ramadan (if the moon is right) too. If I left anything out have a happy whatever it is your religion or custom or pagan ritual dictates.
This seems to me to be a reasonable alternative for people who don't want to the shop 'till they drop in the Christmas crowds and spend a forutne. After Christmas bargains are everywhere and the crowds are generally long gone. That combination might entice the bah humbugs to join in the festivities even if it is 12 days late.
Or at least it might stop their complaining and spoiling the Christmas spirit.
Merry Christmas everyone, no matter how you choose to celebrate or not celebrate. Happy Hannukah, Kwansa, or Ramadan (if the moon is right) too. If I left anything out have a happy whatever it is your religion or custom or pagan ritual dictates.
Question:
How many of you people that think christmas is stupid, pointless, all about selfish "getting" etc would willingly give up your christmas holidy?
I mean honestly why do you need the day off?
On another note, I'm not christian. I dont go to church. But I celebrate christmas. Why? to see the smile on my sister's face when she opens her gift. To be with my family who I dont see nearly enough each year. To be thankful for what I do have, instead of complaining about what I dont have or dont want to deal with.
The holidays for me are seeing everyone happy...in a festive spirit, whether they sing carols, light their Menorahs, or whatever festival they celebrate. Why take that away from people just because you personally dont like it? What gives you that right?
....but that's just me.
How many of you people that think christmas is stupid, pointless, all about selfish "getting" etc would willingly give up your christmas holidy?
I mean honestly why do you need the day off?
On another note, I'm not christian. I dont go to church. But I celebrate christmas. Why? to see the smile on my sister's face when she opens her gift. To be with my family who I dont see nearly enough each year. To be thankful for what I do have, instead of complaining about what I dont have or dont want to deal with.
The holidays for me are seeing everyone happy...in a festive spirit, whether they sing carols, light their Menorahs, or whatever festival they celebrate. Why take that away from people just because you personally dont like it? What gives you that right?
....but that's just me.
Wow, I thought liberals were supposed to be comprised of the intellectual elite; apparently not. Kangas needs to do his homework.
First, it seems that Kangas does not even know what the word liberal means. One major component of liberal ideology is that of free-trade or laizzez-faire. I really don?t see Wal-Mart doing anything other than practicing this prodigiously well with the government doing little to interfere. I agree that in modern society, corporations like Wal-Mart are examples of capitalism run amok, but also of traditional liberalism run amok. Therefore, Christmas shopping is an orgy of liberal practices.
Concerning Steve Kangas? comments about the Communist Christmas, perhaps he should lodge a complaint against his fellow liberal, former President Bill Clinton, who helped set up ?most favored nation? trade status with China at about the same time he set up the liberal NAFTA (North American FREE TRADE Association) which requires America to import these Chinese gifts. I agree with his comments about not supporting a corrupt totalitarian state but his argument shouldn?t go much further than that.
In regards to the above comment about Christians not being Christian by supporting the war in Iraq I was pretty sure that the head of the largest Christian denomination (the pope) denounced the invasion of Iraq. So are you talking about ?American? Christians or does simply the mention of ?liberal? and ?conservative? set off a jerk reflex that has you regurgitating issues about Iraq (JANEANE GAROFALO).
Kangas should also try to digest a few books on pagan history of some substance. For instance, his environmental complaint centered on the tradition of the Christmas tree which derives from a Roman pagan tradition. So are Christians being Christians or good or bad pagans? By the way, pagan is not a racial epithet; the word existed before the idea of racism even existed. It is archaic Latin that was used by the pagan patricians to describe ?country folk?. That is all it means, unless ?redneck? or ?hillbilly? are racial epithets; words liberals use to describe country people who are typically conservative in economics and politics.
Slurmsmackenzie ? I would check out some more books on pagan holidays as well,
?many of christmas' most notorious customs are shrouded in pagan origins. for instance date....
it's well known jesus wasn't born on dec 25. it was originally a celebration of the rebirth of the sun god saturnella (or something to that effect). ?
No, it was the celebration of Mithras, the sun-god in a mystery cult that was popular in Rome around the 3rd and 4th century. Saturn was the Roman god also known as Cronus and frequently depicted in modern culture as ?Father Time?. Further the date doesn?t really matter that much because the dating systems themselves were in flux transitioning from the Julian to the Gregorian. The date for Easter, for example, was not established until 597 at the Synod of Whitby due to a dispute between the Celtic and Roman churches. My point is that the reason that Christmas is celebrated in modern society has no other direct source but Christianity and errors in the dating does nothing to disprove that.
Kangan?s arguments for the celebration of the winter solstice are equally retarded. Virtually all Ind-European pagan societies celebrated the winter solstice because it was a visible re-occurring astronomical event. This was important because in pre-civilized societies there were no calendars or date-books so the solstice helped determine the date. There is nothing really enlightening or new about this insight. Secondly, most pagan society?s mythologies are directly connected to the crop cycle. Whether it was the Phoenician fertility god of Baal, the Egyptian?s Osiris and Isis, etc., etc, the same festivals were celebrated every year at the same time, just like the Catholic Church eventually established with the church calendar. Pagan societies believed in cyclical ideas of history, therefore their celebrations were cyclical. Therefore, of course Christianity selected an event that was already celebrated for their celebration. You don?t win many converts by presenting a religion that is radically different, and, no, this was not crammed down these people?s throats, certainly not until Theodosius? edict. So, one of the best surving vestiges of pagan practice is not you local Wiccan's club down the street but Christmas.
Anyway, my major point is that yes Christianity is an amalgamation of different pagan cultural practices that was adopted by Christianity. But Christianity itself is this. The fundamental difference is that Christians are celebrating a non-recurring event, Jesus' birth, cyclically based upon their belief system and that is the actual origin of Christmas. Its not called Mitrasmas for a reason. I would think that such an ethnically rich and diverse holiday would only appeal to a ?liberal? such as Kangas but apparently not.
I think people like Kangas? mostly mean well, but to use regurgitated facts that someone doubtlessly passed on to him to ?disprove? Christianity is stupid. Attacking the theological or ideological origins of Christmas is equally stupid. Modern Christmas exists outside of Christianity within the secular culture and has its own mythology to support it. Frosty, Santa, and Rudolph make up the new pantheon of gods and shopping is the new seasonal ritual. So whatever the original origins of Christmas, it is something incredible perverse and different today and has little to do with his points of attack. However, I agree totally that the commercialization of Christmas and the bizarre pseudo-traditions that accompany it are pretty much negative on society and individuals.
First, it seems that Kangas does not even know what the word liberal means. One major component of liberal ideology is that of free-trade or laizzez-faire. I really don?t see Wal-Mart doing anything other than practicing this prodigiously well with the government doing little to interfere. I agree that in modern society, corporations like Wal-Mart are examples of capitalism run amok, but also of traditional liberalism run amok. Therefore, Christmas shopping is an orgy of liberal practices.
Concerning Steve Kangas? comments about the Communist Christmas, perhaps he should lodge a complaint against his fellow liberal, former President Bill Clinton, who helped set up ?most favored nation? trade status with China at about the same time he set up the liberal NAFTA (North American FREE TRADE Association) which requires America to import these Chinese gifts. I agree with his comments about not supporting a corrupt totalitarian state but his argument shouldn?t go much further than that.
In regards to the above comment about Christians not being Christian by supporting the war in Iraq I was pretty sure that the head of the largest Christian denomination (the pope) denounced the invasion of Iraq. So are you talking about ?American? Christians or does simply the mention of ?liberal? and ?conservative? set off a jerk reflex that has you regurgitating issues about Iraq (JANEANE GAROFALO).
Kangas should also try to digest a few books on pagan history of some substance. For instance, his environmental complaint centered on the tradition of the Christmas tree which derives from a Roman pagan tradition. So are Christians being Christians or good or bad pagans? By the way, pagan is not a racial epithet; the word existed before the idea of racism even existed. It is archaic Latin that was used by the pagan patricians to describe ?country folk?. That is all it means, unless ?redneck? or ?hillbilly? are racial epithets; words liberals use to describe country people who are typically conservative in economics and politics.
Slurmsmackenzie ? I would check out some more books on pagan holidays as well,
?many of christmas' most notorious customs are shrouded in pagan origins. for instance date....
it's well known jesus wasn't born on dec 25. it was originally a celebration of the rebirth of the sun god saturnella (or something to that effect). ?
No, it was the celebration of Mithras, the sun-god in a mystery cult that was popular in Rome around the 3rd and 4th century. Saturn was the Roman god also known as Cronus and frequently depicted in modern culture as ?Father Time?. Further the date doesn?t really matter that much because the dating systems themselves were in flux transitioning from the Julian to the Gregorian. The date for Easter, for example, was not established until 597 at the Synod of Whitby due to a dispute between the Celtic and Roman churches. My point is that the reason that Christmas is celebrated in modern society has no other direct source but Christianity and errors in the dating does nothing to disprove that.
Kangan?s arguments for the celebration of the winter solstice are equally retarded. Virtually all Ind-European pagan societies celebrated the winter solstice because it was a visible re-occurring astronomical event. This was important because in pre-civilized societies there were no calendars or date-books so the solstice helped determine the date. There is nothing really enlightening or new about this insight. Secondly, most pagan society?s mythologies are directly connected to the crop cycle. Whether it was the Phoenician fertility god of Baal, the Egyptian?s Osiris and Isis, etc., etc, the same festivals were celebrated every year at the same time, just like the Catholic Church eventually established with the church calendar. Pagan societies believed in cyclical ideas of history, therefore their celebrations were cyclical. Therefore, of course Christianity selected an event that was already celebrated for their celebration. You don?t win many converts by presenting a religion that is radically different, and, no, this was not crammed down these people?s throats, certainly not until Theodosius? edict. So, one of the best surving vestiges of pagan practice is not you local Wiccan's club down the street but Christmas.
Anyway, my major point is that yes Christianity is an amalgamation of different pagan cultural practices that was adopted by Christianity. But Christianity itself is this. The fundamental difference is that Christians are celebrating a non-recurring event, Jesus' birth, cyclically based upon their belief system and that is the actual origin of Christmas. Its not called Mitrasmas for a reason. I would think that such an ethnically rich and diverse holiday would only appeal to a ?liberal? such as Kangas but apparently not.
I think people like Kangas? mostly mean well, but to use regurgitated facts that someone doubtlessly passed on to him to ?disprove? Christianity is stupid. Attacking the theological or ideological origins of Christmas is equally stupid. Modern Christmas exists outside of Christianity within the secular culture and has its own mythology to support it. Frosty, Santa, and Rudolph make up the new pantheon of gods and shopping is the new seasonal ritual. So whatever the original origins of Christmas, it is something incredible perverse and different today and has little to do with his points of attack. However, I agree totally that the commercialization of Christmas and the bizarre pseudo-traditions that accompany it are pretty much negative on society and individuals.
slurmsmackenzie
Golden Member
?Most of the Christmas customs now prevailing in Europe, or recorded from former times, are not genuine Christian customs, but heathen customs which have been absorbed or tolerated by the Church. . . . The Saturnalia in Rome provided the model for most of the merry customs of the Christmas time.??Encyclopædia of Religion and Ethics (Edinburgh, 1910), edited by James Hastings, Volume III, pages 608-9.
"In the course of time, the prominent Greek gods found their way into the Roman pantheon, although they were known by different names. Also, deities of still other lands were adopted by the Romans, including the Persian Mithras (whose birthday was celebrated on December 25) and the Phrygian fertility goddess Cybele and the Egyptian Isis, both of whom have been identified with the Babylonian Ishtar"
does that count as a book, know it all? mithras was adopted by the romans. another religion added to the melting pot in order to "rally the troops" and make everyone happy. careful how you step, son.
" My point is that the reason that Christmas is celebrated in modern society has no other direct source but Christianity" that's stupid.... christmas is not a christian celebration. it is a perversion of christianity and should be viewed as seperate from "christian beliefs". jesus said be no part of this world, just as i am no part of this world. and seeing how 1) christmas' roots are seen in almost every culture in some way and 2) there is no record of the early apostles/christians celebrating jesus' birth, it's obviously something that jesus had not intended. so to call it a christian celebration is false.
slurmsmackenzie
Golden Member
"In an effort to gain pagan converts the Roman Catholic clergy, in the fourth century after Christ, took in this pagan Saturnalia on December 25 and sponsored it as the ?mass of Christ? or ?Christ-mass.? Christmas, therefore, is nothing more than a carbon copy of the pagan Saturnalia. This is generally admitted by historical and religious scholars. Says a world history, On the Road to Civilization, page 164: ?The feast of Saturn, the Saturnalia, was a winter festival which lasted a week beginning on the twenty-fifth day of December, and was celebrated with dancing, the exchanging of gifts, and the burning of candles. The Saturnalia was later taken over by the Christians as their Christmas, and given a new significance.?
there's another book.... did you have books, also? or am i just waiting in vain?
there's another book.... did you have books, also? or am i just waiting in vain?
Hey what?s with all the animosity? I?m not looking for a flame war; I was just hoping I could help clear up a few misunderstandings. Secondly, I didn?t post any links because when it comes to paganism the net is inundated with cr@p on this topic. Third, those citations don?t refute anything that I stated; I think that the ?Christmas is not Christian? argument is thrown around as a pre-digested challenge to Christians by pseudo-intellectuals. Actual discussions about the origins of religion, Christmas, are fine by me, but ignorance challenging ignorance is, well, ignorant. Finally, I apologize if I come off as pretentious or snobbish but my master?s thesis is on Indo-European paganism, so yeah I think I do know a little. Anyway here are some books to helps start some research, these are mostly pretty good (the neo-paganism ones mostly suck, except for Hutton).
Aufheben. The Politics of Anti-Road Struggle and the Struggles of Anti-Road Politics: The Case of the No M11 Link Road Campaign, in McKay 1998: 100-28
Berend, Nora. At the Gate of Christendom.
Sandra Billington, Miranda Green. The Concept of the Goddess. Routledge; New Ed edition (February 1, 1999)
Blain, Jenny. Nine Worlds of Seid-Magic.
Buckland, Raymond. The Witch Book: The Encyclopedia of Witchcraft, Wicca and Neo Paganism
Chaney, William. The Cult of Kingship in Anglo-Saxon England: The Transition from Paganism to Christianity.
Cook, John Granger. The Interpretation of the New Testament in Greco-Roman Paganism.
Crawley, Vivianne. A Woman?s Guide to the Earth Traditions.
Dowden, Ken. European Paganism the Realities of Cult from Antiquity to the Middle Ages.
Willem De Blecourt, Ronald Hutton, Jean La Fontaine, Bengt Ankarloo, Stuart Clark. The Athlone History of Witchcraft and Magic in Europe: The Twentieth Century (The Athlone History of Witchcraft and Magic in Europe). Continuum International Publishing Group (September 16, 1999).
Gardell, Matthias. Gods of the Blood: The Pagan Revival and White Separatism.
Fletcher, Richard. The Barbarian Conversion from Paganism to Christianity.
Green, Miranda.The Celtic World. Routledge; Boxed edition (May 1, 1996)
Green, Miranda. The Gods of the Celts. Sutton Publishing; Revised edition (May 15, 2004)
Green, Miranda. Animals in Celtic Life and Myth. Routledge; New Ed edition (May 1, 1998)
Green, Miranda. Celtic Myths (Legendary Past). University of Texas Press; 1st Univer edition (January 1, 1994)
Green, Miranda. Dying for the Gods: Human Sacrifice in Iron Age & Roman Europe. Trafalgar Square (November 1, 2002)
Green, Miranda. Symbol and Image in Celtic Religious Art. Routledge; Reprint edition (August 1, 1992).
Miranda J. Green, Miranda J. Aldhouse-Green. The Gods of Roman Britain (Shire Archaeology). Shire Publications (June, 2003)
Miranda J. Green, Miranda J. Aldhouse-Green. Celtic Art: Reading the Messages (Law in Context). George Weidenfeld & Nicholson, Ltd. (January, 1996).
Green, Miranda. The Sun-Gods of Ancient Europe. Hippocrene Books (May 1, 1992).
Green, Miranda. The wheel as a cult-symbol in the Romano-Celtic world: With special reference to Gaul and Britain (Collection Latomus). Latomus Revue d'Etudes Latines (1984).
Hardman, Charlotte and Graham Harvey. Paganism Today.
Hawkins, Craig and Alan Gomes. Goddess Worship, Witchcraft and Neo-Paganism.
Hetherington, K. Expressions of Identity: Space, Performance, Politics (London: Sage 1998).
Higginbotham. Paganism: An introduction to Earth Centered Religions.
Hopkins, Keith. A World Full of Gods.
Howard, Michael. Angels and Goddesses: Celtic Christianity and Paganism in Ancient Britain.
Hutton, Ronald. The Pagan Religions of the Ancient British Isles: Their Nature and Legacy. Blackwell Publishers; Reprint edition (November 1, 1993).
Hutton, Ronald. The Triumph of the Moon: A History of Modern Pagan Witchcraft. Oxford University Press; New Ed edition (April 1, 2001).
Hutton, Ronald. Witches, Druids and King Arthur. Hambledon & London (December 19, 2003).
Hutton, Ronald. Stations of the Sun. Oxford Paperbacks; New Ed edition (February, 2001).
Jones, Prudence and Nigel Pennick. A History of Pagan Europe. London: Routledge, 1997.
Kieckhefer, Richard. Magic in the Middle Ages.
Klauck, Hans-Josef. Magic and Paganism in Early Christianity.
Lindow, John. Norse Mythology: A Guide to the Gods, Heroes, Rituals, and Beliefs. Oxford University Press (September 1, 2002)
Mckay, G. Senseless Acts of Beauty: Cultures of Resistance Since the Sixties (London: Verso 1996).
MacKenzie, Robert J. The Three Funerals of Beowulf: An Examination of Germanic Paganism in England.
Monbiot, G. ?Reclaim the Fields and Country Lanes! The Land is Ours Campaign?, in McKay 1998: 174-86.
Orion, Loretta. Never again the Burning Times.
Pearson, Joanne. Belief Beyond Boundaries.
Pennick, Nigel. The Pagan Book of Days: A Guide to the Festivals, Traditions, and Sacred Days of the Year. Destiny Books; 2nd Rev&Up edition (March 15, 2001).
Pennick, Nigel. Magical Alphabets. Weiser Books; 1st American ed edition (May 1, 1992)
Pennick, Nigel. Games of the Gods: The Origin of Board Games in Magic and Divination. Red Wheel Weiser; 1st American ed edition (April 1, 1989)
Pike, Sarah. Earthly Bodies, Magical Selves: Contemporary Pagans and the Search for Community.
Seel, B., M. Paterson and B. Doherty. Direct Action in British Environmentalism (London: Routledge 2000).
Stanley, Eric Gerald. The Search for Anglo-Saxon Paganism
Szerszynski, B. ?Performing Politics: The Dramatics of Environmental Protest?, in Ray and Sayer 1999: 211-28.
Vickroy, Timothy John. The God, the Word, and the Power.
Winterbourne, Anthony. When the Norns have Spoken: Time and Fate in Germanic Paganism.
Wodening, Swain. Hammer of the Gods: Anglo-Saxon Paganism in Modern Times.
York, Michael. Pagan Theology: Paganism as a World Religion.
Aufheben. The Politics of Anti-Road Struggle and the Struggles of Anti-Road Politics: The Case of the No M11 Link Road Campaign, in McKay 1998: 100-28
Berend, Nora. At the Gate of Christendom.
Sandra Billington, Miranda Green. The Concept of the Goddess. Routledge; New Ed edition (February 1, 1999)
Blain, Jenny. Nine Worlds of Seid-Magic.
Buckland, Raymond. The Witch Book: The Encyclopedia of Witchcraft, Wicca and Neo Paganism
Chaney, William. The Cult of Kingship in Anglo-Saxon England: The Transition from Paganism to Christianity.
Cook, John Granger. The Interpretation of the New Testament in Greco-Roman Paganism.
Crawley, Vivianne. A Woman?s Guide to the Earth Traditions.
Dowden, Ken. European Paganism the Realities of Cult from Antiquity to the Middle Ages.
Willem De Blecourt, Ronald Hutton, Jean La Fontaine, Bengt Ankarloo, Stuart Clark. The Athlone History of Witchcraft and Magic in Europe: The Twentieth Century (The Athlone History of Witchcraft and Magic in Europe). Continuum International Publishing Group (September 16, 1999).
Gardell, Matthias. Gods of the Blood: The Pagan Revival and White Separatism.
Fletcher, Richard. The Barbarian Conversion from Paganism to Christianity.
Green, Miranda.The Celtic World. Routledge; Boxed edition (May 1, 1996)
Green, Miranda. The Gods of the Celts. Sutton Publishing; Revised edition (May 15, 2004)
Green, Miranda. Animals in Celtic Life and Myth. Routledge; New Ed edition (May 1, 1998)
Green, Miranda. Celtic Myths (Legendary Past). University of Texas Press; 1st Univer edition (January 1, 1994)
Green, Miranda. Dying for the Gods: Human Sacrifice in Iron Age & Roman Europe. Trafalgar Square (November 1, 2002)
Green, Miranda. Symbol and Image in Celtic Religious Art. Routledge; Reprint edition (August 1, 1992).
Miranda J. Green, Miranda J. Aldhouse-Green. The Gods of Roman Britain (Shire Archaeology). Shire Publications (June, 2003)
Miranda J. Green, Miranda J. Aldhouse-Green. Celtic Art: Reading the Messages (Law in Context). George Weidenfeld & Nicholson, Ltd. (January, 1996).
Green, Miranda. The Sun-Gods of Ancient Europe. Hippocrene Books (May 1, 1992).
Green, Miranda. The wheel as a cult-symbol in the Romano-Celtic world: With special reference to Gaul and Britain (Collection Latomus). Latomus Revue d'Etudes Latines (1984).
Hardman, Charlotte and Graham Harvey. Paganism Today.
Hawkins, Craig and Alan Gomes. Goddess Worship, Witchcraft and Neo-Paganism.
Hetherington, K. Expressions of Identity: Space, Performance, Politics (London: Sage 1998).
Higginbotham. Paganism: An introduction to Earth Centered Religions.
Hopkins, Keith. A World Full of Gods.
Howard, Michael. Angels and Goddesses: Celtic Christianity and Paganism in Ancient Britain.
Hutton, Ronald. The Pagan Religions of the Ancient British Isles: Their Nature and Legacy. Blackwell Publishers; Reprint edition (November 1, 1993).
Hutton, Ronald. The Triumph of the Moon: A History of Modern Pagan Witchcraft. Oxford University Press; New Ed edition (April 1, 2001).
Hutton, Ronald. Witches, Druids and King Arthur. Hambledon & London (December 19, 2003).
Hutton, Ronald. Stations of the Sun. Oxford Paperbacks; New Ed edition (February, 2001).
Jones, Prudence and Nigel Pennick. A History of Pagan Europe. London: Routledge, 1997.
Kieckhefer, Richard. Magic in the Middle Ages.
Klauck, Hans-Josef. Magic and Paganism in Early Christianity.
Lindow, John. Norse Mythology: A Guide to the Gods, Heroes, Rituals, and Beliefs. Oxford University Press (September 1, 2002)
Mckay, G. Senseless Acts of Beauty: Cultures of Resistance Since the Sixties (London: Verso 1996).
MacKenzie, Robert J. The Three Funerals of Beowulf: An Examination of Germanic Paganism in England.
Monbiot, G. ?Reclaim the Fields and Country Lanes! The Land is Ours Campaign?, in McKay 1998: 174-86.
Orion, Loretta. Never again the Burning Times.
Pearson, Joanne. Belief Beyond Boundaries.
Pennick, Nigel. The Pagan Book of Days: A Guide to the Festivals, Traditions, and Sacred Days of the Year. Destiny Books; 2nd Rev&Up edition (March 15, 2001).
Pennick, Nigel. Magical Alphabets. Weiser Books; 1st American ed edition (May 1, 1992)
Pennick, Nigel. Games of the Gods: The Origin of Board Games in Magic and Divination. Red Wheel Weiser; 1st American ed edition (April 1, 1989)
Pike, Sarah. Earthly Bodies, Magical Selves: Contemporary Pagans and the Search for Community.
Seel, B., M. Paterson and B. Doherty. Direct Action in British Environmentalism (London: Routledge 2000).
Stanley, Eric Gerald. The Search for Anglo-Saxon Paganism
Szerszynski, B. ?Performing Politics: The Dramatics of Environmental Protest?, in Ray and Sayer 1999: 211-28.
Vickroy, Timothy John. The God, the Word, and the Power.
Winterbourne, Anthony. When the Norns have Spoken: Time and Fate in Germanic Paganism.
Wodening, Swain. Hammer of the Gods: Anglo-Saxon Paganism in Modern Times.
York, Michael. Pagan Theology: Paganism as a World Religion.
slurmsmackenzie
Golden Member
?THE most familiar solstic celebration of ancient times was that of the Romans,? according to science writer Isaac Asimov. It was the week-long Saturnalia (December 17 to 24), held in honor of their agricultural god, Saturn. Dr. Asimov also comments:
?The Mithraists celebrated the birth of Mithra at the winter solstice, a natural time, and fixed on the day December 25 so that the popular Roman Saturnalia could build up to the Mithraist ?Day of the Sun? as a climax. . . . Sometime after A.D. 300, Christianity managed the final coup of absorbing the Saturnalia, and with that it scored its final victory over Mithraism. December 25 was established as the day of the birth of Jesus, and the great festival was made Christian. There is absolutely no biblical authority for December 25 as having been the day of the Nativity.?
anyone else ever heard of isaac asimov? so i'm not the only one then? good.
cuz that's another book. it's not your limited knowledge that bothers me, ubi. obviously you know something about mithra, but to offer your knowledge in a condescending manner and be wrong in the processes is inexcusable.
?The Mithraists celebrated the birth of Mithra at the winter solstice, a natural time, and fixed on the day December 25 so that the popular Roman Saturnalia could build up to the Mithraist ?Day of the Sun? as a climax. . . . Sometime after A.D. 300, Christianity managed the final coup of absorbing the Saturnalia, and with that it scored its final victory over Mithraism. December 25 was established as the day of the birth of Jesus, and the great festival was made Christian. There is absolutely no biblical authority for December 25 as having been the day of the Nativity.?
anyone else ever heard of isaac asimov? so i'm not the only one then? good.
cuz that's another book. it's not your limited knowledge that bothers me, ubi. obviously you know something about mithra, but to offer your knowledge in a condescending manner and be wrong in the processes is inexcusable.
slurmsmackenzie
Golden Member
you claimed i was wrong and continued into something that while true, doesn't encompass the entire background of christmans origins. the worship of saturnalia was a major roman custom. like christmas, the celebration of mathrias' birthday was a conglomeration with the roman catholics edging them out for who gets credit (i.e. funding) for their holiday. i apologize for my standoffish behavior, but your tone initially left a bad taste in my mouth. i have no college, no theological background other than my own zeal. but goshdarnit.... i know my sh!t.
Yeah, well the historiography on the topic is pretty complicated and while I don't at all think it is over you head, I would be writing all night simply to make one point. Foe example, it has changed completely since 1910 (Encyclopædia of Religion and Ethics (Edinburgh, 1910), edited by James Hastings, Volume III, pages 608-9.) In fact, one of the major shifts in historiography in general has been the application of sociology in studying paganism and that field didn't even exist then. That is just one small example of how fluid the discussion is. Point is, I pretty much cannot prove much of anything substantial for the continuity or discontinuity of paganism/christmas from ancient times until now. And the reverse holds true. And that would beif I was to provide a 30 page reply, and my hand hurts already, he he.
slurmsmackenzie
Golden Member
watchtower library 2003 english edition
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