Let's play "what if...."

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shortylickens

No Lifer
Jul 15, 2003
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forget the copying argument. just accept that iOS has pretty much DEFINED what a touchscreen OS is.

Everyone else is really a copycat. What's worse is Android doesn't bring a complete experience either. Copy, but at least do it right!

It defined what a MODERN touchscreen OS is with the current gen of phones. Touchscreen devices were around long before the first iPhone.

Make no mistake about it: Apple never does anything original. Everything they put out is a rip-off of dozens of other ideas. Their only real skill is melding the best elements they steal into one nice, final product. And it sells well. So the competition steps up their game.
So then Apple sues them for ripping off "their" ideas.
And people like me laugh.
 

akugami

Diamond Member
Feb 14, 2005
6,210
2,552
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The claim is that android blatantly copied iOS after it was released. What I'm saying is that the major aspects of the android OS (the desktops, widgets, notifications) are completely different from iOS and thus could not have been a copy of it. In addition many of these aspects were already present in the prototype android OS that you claim google ditched to copy iOS.

I'll concede the widget and notification but no one except you has made any type of claim that Android copied Apple on those two features. As I said in my previous post, this is a strawman argumen. They're very useful features. Desirable features. But that's not what Android copied from iOS. It is almost everything in the rest of the OS that Android copied.

Did you not see how different the so called "desktop" looked on the 2007 demo as compared to Android on release in 2008? They looked nothing alike. It is obvious Google copied Apple's desktop metaphor and the swipable pages of icons. Granted they added to it by having an app drawer, which is really nice. If you can't see that Android's desktop metaphor is a direct copy of iOS's then I don't know what to tell you because no one except the most hardcore biased person will tell you that Android as it was released in 2008 was not in any way "influenced" by Apple's iOS.

As per my previous post, it is laughable for anyone to claim otherwise. But you can keep on claiming it if you wish. I've posted a link with video to back up my claim and anyone can watch the video to see for himself how different the UI is from 2007 and upon release in 2008. Having posted proof of what I'm saying, if you still don't want to believe visual evidence, then I don't know what to tell you except that you can keep on believing what you wish.
 

Doboji

Diamond Member
May 18, 2001
7,912
0
76
forget the copying argument. just accept that iOS has pretty much DEFINED what a touchscreen OS is.

Everyone else is really a copycat. What's worse is Android doesn't bring a complete experience either. Copy, but at least do it right!

What does "complete experience" mean? Explain.

The iPhone absolutely ushered in a new era of smartphones, and yes on some level every OS involving a touchscreen is "copying" the concepts on some level. But why is this an issue? This is normal. Every technology is stealing concepts from other technologies... and everytime someone happens upon a winner it changes the face of that technology forcing the entire industry to follow suit.

This is how innovation advances... Android SHOULD copy some concepts from Apple... Apple SHOULD copy some concepts from Palm... this is all good. What is bad is how every tech company and their mom is trying to lock down these concepts and prevent the advancement of innovation. Unless you're able to invent something truly new, and not just build on the back of a hundred other innovations, you really shouldn't be able to lock the concept down. You still get the advantage of being first to market... and you can still do everything you can to hide the details of how you did it.

But beyond that, patenting incremental concepts is ridiculous.
 

makken

Golden Member
Aug 28, 2004
1,476
0
76
I'll concede the widget and notification but no one except you has made any type of claim that Android copied Apple on those two features. As I said in my previous post, this is a strawman argumen. They're very useful features. Desirable features. But that's not what Android copied from iOS. It is almost everything in the rest of the OS that Android copied.

Did you not see how different the so called "desktop" looked on the 2007 demo as compared to Android on release in 2008? They looked nothing alike. It is obvious Google copied Apple's desktop metaphor and the swipable pages of icons. Granted they added to it by having an app drawer, which is really nice. If you can't see that Android's desktop metaphor is a direct copy of iOS's then I don't know what to tell you because no one except the most hardcore biased person will tell you that Android as it was released in 2008 was not in any way "influenced" by Apple's iOS.

As per my previous post, it is laughable for anyone to claim otherwise. But you can keep on claiming it if you wish. I've posted a link with video to back up my claim and anyone can watch the video to see for himself how different the UI is from 2007 and upon release in 2008. Having posted proof of what I'm saying, if you still don't want to believe visual evidence, then I don't know what to tell you except that you can keep on believing what you wish.

The post I quoted stated that the android OS was "miraculously" transformed after the release of the iPhone. No he did not explicitly state that android copied iOS' features, but that was he was implying.

Yes, the desktop had much added functionality in 2008; but how is it completely different than the UI from 2007? the status bar and notification bar are pretty much unchanged. The launcher and app drawer are still present at the bottom. The main thing that changed, widgets, I find hard to believe that android copied from iOS considering iOS doesn't even have widgets.

Multiple desktops existed way before iOS, and considering android's roots in linux, I don't find it surprising that they added this feature.

Again, you claim that there is obvious visual evidence, yet all the defining aspects of the android desktop were either already present in the 2007 UI (eg. notification and status bar, launcher and app drawer) or have no equivalent in iOS (widgets).

And as for the video, I'll address the first one since that actually shows the UI: the desktop I already talked about. The call screen is largely unchanged from 2007 to 2008, minus a few additional options on the bottom. The notifications are handled EXACTLY the same from 2007 to 2008, with it appearing in the status bar then sliding up with just the icon remaining. Everything else is app specific. Oh, and on the browser, if you hit the menu button on any modern android device, you still get that same menu. the specific options and some of the styling has changed, but that menu system is still there.
 

ChAoTiCpInOy

Diamond Member
Jun 24, 2006
6,442
1
81
nielsen-smartphone-share-7-11.jpg


Look at HTC, if Apple could get a cut of that then no problem.
 

Mopetar

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2011
8,496
7,753
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I really don't see why Apple would want to completely block sales, either though. Even if they did, it's not likely that it would dramatically increase the number of iPhones that they're going to sell. For the first few months, they're not going to be able to make enough to satisfy the demand, and even when they do, they won't be able to significantly extend their manufacturing ability in the timeframe that they can capitalize on the reduced number of Android devices available.

If anything, it's more likely to increase sales of WP7 or WebOS phones more than it does iPhones. Then again, that could be their intent anyways so who knows.
 

theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,197
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DOJ is investigating the Rockstar Patent cartel. As I was saying, don't expect the government to stand by. People are paying attention.

WASHINGTON—The Justice Department is intensifying an investigation into whether tech giants including Apple Inc., Microsoft Corp. and Research in Motion Ltd. could use a recently acquired trove of patents to unfairly hobble competing smartphones using Google Inc.'s Android software, according to people familiar with the matter.

Read more: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111903635604576476430510833852.html#ixzz1Td1V0HU9
 

theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,197
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BTW, IBM and Google are in bed for one reason and one reason only, to put the hurt on Oracle. Enemy of my enemy is my friend. IBM doesn't want to start open patent war with Oracle, that would cause too much disruption for both of their clients, but they are willing to help another one of Oracle's enemies, kind of like US helping Afghanistan mujahadeen against USSR.
 

Pliablemoose

Lifer
Oct 11, 1999
25,195
0
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Gotta love Google, the flipping company is based on patented software, and screams about software patents :D
 

Mopetar

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2011
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7,753
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DOJ is investigating the Rockstar Patent cartel. As I was saying, don't expect the government to stand by. People are paying attention.

I've already said several times that it's unlikely that these patents can be used to hurt Android. Most of the third party manufacturers are already licensing them so it's unlikely that they can be used offensively. It's more likely that the companies involved did not want to pay licensing costs for 4G technology. For companies like Apple and RIM who make tens of millions (likely hundreds of millions soon) of devices each year using these technologies, the cost certainly adds up over time.
 

Pliablemoose

Lifer
Oct 11, 1999
25,195
0
56
The DOJ may enforce licensing, but that will drive up the costs of using Android....

I see MS as the big winner here, and Apple will have a bushel of patents to horse trade with...
 

badb0y

Diamond Member
Feb 22, 2010
4,015
30
91
WASHINGTON—The Justice Department is intensifying an investigation into whether tech giants including Apple Inc., Microsoft Corp. and Research in Motion Ltd. could use a recently acquired trove of patents to unfairly hobble competing smartphones using Google Inc.'s Android software, according to people familiar with the matter.

Read more: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...#ixzz1Td1V0HU9
How is it unfair if they paid for it.
 

Mopetar

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2011
8,496
7,753
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How is it unfair if they paid for it.

Google probably complained to them about it, which is kind of funny since they were bidding and could have won. Additionally, a consortium of companies won, so from a purely objective point of view, it puts those patents in a larger number of hands than if Google had won.
 

theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,197
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The problem is when companies like Apple, Microsoft, and RIM, who are supposed to be competing against each other, are getting in bed together, that creates a strong impression of collusion, exactly the type of behavior anti-trust authorities are created to prevent.
 

akugami

Diamond Member
Feb 14, 2005
6,210
2,552
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I've already said several times that it's unlikely that these patents can be used to hurt Android. Most of the third party manufacturers are already licensing them so it's unlikely that they can be used offensively. It's more likely that the companies involved did not want to pay licensing costs for 4G technology. For companies like Apple and RIM who make tens of millions (likely hundreds of millions soon) of devices each year using these technologies, the cost certainly adds up over time.

No. The Nortel patents won't be used offensively. They will be used defensively. It's more of a "keep away" strategy so that existing patent claims may be brought on Android OEM's who will then have little in the way of a patent portfolio with which to defend themselves.

So MS sued HTC and won. MS is suing others, over the same patents they licensed to HTC. If Google had obtained the Nortel patents, they could have used it those patents to help defend any Android OEM's from further claims by MS or Apple. As it stands, there's not a whole lot the Android OEM's can do in defense of existing patent claims. HTC tried to defend itself by purchasing S3 (sounded like a great move at the time) but that strategy has since backfired since the announcement that the ITC ruling states that Apple's only infringing products are not iPhones.

The problem is when companies like Apple, Microsoft, and RIM, who are supposed to be competing against each other, are getting in bed together, that creates a strong impression of collusion, exactly the type of behavior anti-trust authorities are created to prevent.

They're splitting the actual patent portfolio. The actual Rockstart consortium originally lost and Apple approached Rockstar at the last minute to pool their resources to buy the patents. Which means that unless some major evidence shows up to counter that, it was a spur of the moment alliance between Apple, and the rest of the Rockstar group. There is also no proof that they are collaborating to deny these patents to any one company or platform.

A strong impression of collusion is not proof positive. I know you keep harping on the collusion theory. But I think you're wrong because from all appearances, MS & some of the other patent winners seem open to licensing their patents. Apple is a different story but that's only one member of the Rockstar consortium. So let's look at some of the winners in the group.

We have MS, who was able to force HTC into licensing their patents prior to winning the Nortel patents. From all appearances, they're just as likely to keep on licensing their patents to anyone who wants them. More likely, MS will set the patent license fees high enough to make Windows Phone 7 as an attractive alternative to Android in terms of base cost for the OS. But there is no proof of collusion. They have their own personal agenda.

Next up, Sony and Ericsson (SE). I'm lumping them together since they've collaborated on their phones in forever. SE used to use Symbian for their smartphones but have since switched over to Android. Even the Sony flagship gaming phone product, the Xperia Play is based on Android. So SE makes use of Google's Android can't be colluding against Android can it?

Then we have RIM. No indication that they're using these patents in a litigious fashion. They've been burned by patents before so it's understandable why they'd want a bigger patent portfolio. But I don't see any evidence they are colluding with anyone to crush Android. They've got their hands full trying to make Blackberry back into the "sexy" corporate product it once was.

Not sure who EMC is I'm sorry to say. No comment here.

Finally we have Apple. Ok. The case can be made that Apple is litigious even though they've been sued as much as they have sued (we're not counting countersuits). In my opinion, this is the only company in the Rockstar group that can be said to be using patents in a purely offensive fashion.

MS's agenda is to make Android from a "free" OS to one that costs as much to license as their WP7. Yes, MS has an agenda but aside from trying to further their own mobile OS, there's not much proof of collusion there. Apple is trying to stunt the growth of Android so their own mobile OS remains relevant. This can help MS because OEM's like HTC will likely turn to WP7 but there's no proof that Apple is in bed with MS to kill Android. Possibility yes, proof no. Sony Ericsson makes specializes in Android devices. Clearly they're colluding against Android. RIM's just trying to make their brand "sexy" again. I'm not saying there isn't some sort of "gentleman's" agreement said behind closed doors, I'm just saying it's unlikely in this case with a major Android OEM in the winning group and Apple and MS having different agendas.
 
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Mopetar

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2011
8,496
7,753
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The DOJ always looks into these deals, but never does anything about it. You're kidding yourself if you think that they're going to step in and stop it. Courts in both the US and Canada have already approved the sale, so if there were any actual impediments to the deal, we would have seen them already.
 

Mopetar

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2011
8,496
7,753
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The argument presented in the article is fairly specious and based on many poor assumptions. It also assumes that Apple is interested in settling, when it's more likely that Google or their third party manufacturers will just make changes to Android to get around the Apple patents, many of which aren't critical to the core functionality of Android.

Microsoft will maneuver to get a larger number of WP7 phones out in the market. Apple will continue it's little holy war even if it leaves a large pile of money on the table. Oracle would be incredibly happy with less than half of what Microsoft gets per device. RIM, HP, and Nokia seem unlikely to become overly involved.

At absolute worst, it would probably come out to $20 per Android device and while that might be make or break for some manufacturers, there are some that will just write it off as the cost of doing business and keep moving on. The notion that any of these disputes will kill Android is merely sensationalism or idiocy.
 

Pliablemoose

Lifer
Oct 11, 1999
25,195
0
56
Agreed, the article is pretty sensational.

It'll be interesting to watch this play out.

Even if the DOJ forces Apple to license the patents, it's a huge wad of cash for Apple.
 

Mopetar

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2011
8,496
7,753
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Agreed, the article is pretty sensational.

It'll be interesting to watch this play out.

Even if the DOJ forces Apple to license the patents, it's a huge wad of cash for Apple.

Anyone who wanted a license most likely already has one. The carriers needed those licenses to build their networks. The manufacturers needed them to make their phones. The courts already ruled that these existing licenses would not be affected by the patent acquisition. Apple may well likely receive some of the money from these licenses now, but that's about it.
 

akugami

Diamond Member
Feb 14, 2005
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It's likely enough for DOJ to investigate and make sure it doesn't happen.

As Mopetar says, the DOJ investigates a lot of stuff, unless the companies being investigated are really really stupid, the DOJ rarely busts anyone's nuts. This is the same DOJ that gave Apple the green light to bid for the whole Nortel patent portfolio which Apple now only gets a share of.

Either way, you still haven't presented any evidence to back up why you feel there is collusion going on. The reason why I made the previous post is because I've seen the collusion theory being floated multiple times in these forums.

That's not to say there isn't any collusion going on, just that the proof is not really there and that there is actually some proof to the contrary considering that the Rockstar consortium has a couple of strong Android backers.

...At absolute worst, it would probably come out to $20 per Android device and while that might be make or break for some manufacturers, there are some that will just write it off as the cost of doing business and keep moving on. The notion that any of these disputes will kill Android is merely sensationalism or idiocy.

Also keep in mind that each OEM has to do QA testing regardless of whether they get the OS free or not. Basically a "free" OS is not completely free. Especially considering all of the custom UI's every Android OEM likes to implement.
 

smartpatrol

Senior member
Mar 8, 2006
870
0
0
Lobbying. Lots of it. The patent system is ultimately a political creation and it needs to be handled politically. The hundreds of millions that it costs to buy patents or hire patent lawyers are much better spent buying political influence. Google needs to run ads along the lines of "call your congressman and tell them to reform the patent system, or you will not be able to buy an Android phone in the near future." There are enough Android fans to flip elections.

http://fosspatents.blogspot.com/2011/07/googles-new-anti-patent-stance-has-four.html

This is an excellent post about how Google has some serious credibility issues now that they are all of a sudden against software patents. He makes a good case that:

1. Google's entire business was built on a software patent (their page ranking method).

and

2. Google has been asked to comment on software patents multiple times in the past, and has either chosen to remain silent or else actually supported software patents.

So it seems pretty obvious that Google is only against software patents when they're used against Google or their partners. Google is a company out to protect their profits just like any other, they aren't some righteous warriors of justice. I find it very far-fetched to think that they could bring about the type of reform you're talking about.
 

poofyhairguy

Lifer
Nov 20, 2005
14,612
318
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I can see the DOJ coming down on Apple's side, but I can't see the EU allowing Apple to snuff out Android. American justice is by the books, down to what the contracts say. The EU seems to come down on the side that benefits consumers the most, which would be NOT banning or otherwise killing the most popular smartphone OS.
 

theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,197
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http://fosspatents.blogspot.com/2011/07/googles-new-anti-patent-stance-has-four.html

This is an excellent post about how Google has some serious credibility issues now that they are all of a sudden against software patents. He makes a good case that:

1. Google's entire business was built on a software patent (their page ranking method).

and

2. Google has been asked to comment on software patents multiple times in the past, and has either chosen to remain silent or else actually supported software patents.

So it seems pretty obvious that Google is only against software patents when they're used against Google or their partners. Google is a company out to protect their profits just like any other, they aren't some righteous warriors of justice. I find it very far-fetched to think that they could bring about the type of reform you're talking about.

So what? That doesn't change the fact that hundreds of millions in lobbying dollars can buy a lot of influence. Politicians don't care about this fosspatents blog.
P.S. Obama mentioned patent reform in his speech today.
 
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