Lets get ready for some Debating Cage Fights Round 1,2, and 3

[Starbuck1975]

Spreading the FUD, huh? The only maneuvering lately has been from the usual conspiracy theorists.

I spread some FUD on my bagel this morning. It's healthier than butter, and tastes better than the denial you're serving.

 

[Jhhnn]

I sincerely doubt it. The 2012 race was exceptionally stable and Obama had a clear and consistent advantage for almost the whole time. Romney was very unlikely to win from almost the start, the rest was just people who didn't want to believe it lying to themselves.

Both McCain & Romney were necessary sacrifices by Repubs in the wake of the financial & diplomatic disasters their own policy wrought. Whatever chagrin they may have felt in 2008 (remember the notable absence of Dub & Dick at the RNC convention?) has been set aside in pursuit of the same old policy, same old top down class warfare wrapped in the misguided culture war they love so dearly.

 

[Starbuck1975]

Both McCain & Romney were necessary sacrifices by Repubs in the wake of the financial & diplomatic disasters their own policy wrought. Whatever chagrin they may have felt in 2008 (remember the notable absence of Dub & Dick at the RNC convention?) has been set aside in pursuit of the same old policy, same old top down class warfare wrapped in the misguided culture war they love so dearly.

I am curious. Who do you think is behind the curtain of the vast right wing conspiracy? You often suggest there is some driving force or agenda that is guiding the hand of Republicans. By who and to what ends?

 

[agent00f]

The contemporary gop is mainly a confluence of the gentry and evangelicals and racists, a somewhat circular venn diagram of groups which commanded some power but of overall diminishing influence in merica. They do what they need to keep it together, and this perhaps justifiable paranoia modernity is out to get them is merely part of those mechanics. Their only play as of late is appealing to lower class whites to keep the outsiders beneath them to stay above water.

They lost in 2008 on due to demographics, and once that demographic shift overpowers gerrymandering & such they're done for.

 

[nageov3t]

They lost in 2008 on due to demographics, and once that demographic shift overpowers gerrymandering & such they're done for.

I think they could squeeze out a couple elections via untapped white voters with no college education who aren't voting... Trump's trying to rely on that, but he's also doing it without having any kind of traditional ground game or get out the vote operation, which is really bad if you're trying to ferret out voters who don't even appear on the voter registration rolls.

 

[Jhhnn]

I am curious. Who do you think is behind the curtain of the vast right wing conspiracy? You often suggest there is some driving force or agenda that is guiding the hand of Republicans. By who and to what ends?

What is the Repub agenda? Continuation & expansion of trickle down Reaganomics that fail to serve the interests of working people. No matter what wedge issue they're using to get votes it always comes with policy that serves unfathomable greed at the top. That's beyond obvious.

What drives that agenda? The money of some of America's wealthiest-

http://www.forbes.com/2010/10/21/bi...rs-republicans-koch-murdoch-trump-wealth.html

That's no secret, and no conspiracy, either.

 

[agent00f]

Keeping minorities and women down is in the interest of white working people. The gist of conservatism is keeping things the way they are, which generally benefits those with some advantage.

 

[Jhhnn]

Keeping minorities and women down is in the interest of white working people. The gist of conservatism is keeping things the way they are, which generally benefits those with some advantage.

Which really is at odds with the radical agenda of those financing the Repub party. They want a Capitalist utopia where the plutocracy dictates govt policy & action rather than the Will of the People.

 

[agent00f]

Which really is at odds with the radical agenda of those financing the Repub party. They want a Capitalist utopia where the plutocracy dictates govt policy & action rather than the Will of the People.

What I'm trying to say is that there's a notion the GOP faithful are too dumb to know what's good for them. But racists, misogynists and so on do know what's good for them, as do the literally faithful whose priorities are not of this life. Not everyone's priorities are necessarily economic. They are therefore providing votes in a transactional exchange for what they consider goodness. If we strip it down to basic desires it makes a lot more sense.

 

[Jhhnn]

What I'm trying to say is that there's a notion the GOP faithful are too dumb to know what's good for them. But racists, misogynists and so on do know what's good for them, as do the literally faithful whose priorities are not of this life. Not everyone's priorities are necessarily economic. They are therefore providing votes in a transactional exchange for what they consider goodness. If we strip it down to basic desires it makes a lot more sense.

They're not dumb. They've just been blinded to the fact that they've been cruelly exploited for decades to serve the economic agenda of right wing Plutarchs. All of their best qualities are turned against them..

 

[agent00f]

They're not dumb. They've just been blinded to the fact that they've been cruelly exploited for decades to serve the economic agenda of right wing Plutarchs. All of their best qualities are turned against them..

If they're voluntarily exchanging votes in a quid pro quo for policy they want, I wouldn't consider that exploitation. It might well be the case that it's sometimes not in their strict economic interest, but the good book for example tells of greater concerns for this life and the GOP provides it. Similarly for white/male social standing and such, a source of pride that some extra cash can't buy.

 

[Starbuck1975]

What is the Repub agenda? Continuation & expansion of trickle down Reaganomics that fail to serve the interests of working people. No matter what wedge issue they're using to get votes it always comes with policy that serves unfathomable greed at the top. That's beyond obvious.

What drives that agenda? The money of some of America's wealthiest-

http://www.forbes.com/2010/10/21/bi...rs-republicans-koch-murdoch-trump-wealth.html

That's no secret, and no conspiracy, either.

Yet despite all their billions of dollars and influence, they couldn't stop the frankenstein monster that is Trump from obliterating the Republican presidential field. You give the Koch brothers and those like them far more credit than they deserve, similar to how the right knee jerks to Soros.

As for Reaganomics, it has its flaws, but it is easy to sell. To a certain extent, many voters are simply to politically disengaged to understand what is being sold to them. On the other hand, Democrats are horrible at pitching their economic alternative, most likely because it lacks coherence.

 

[agent00f]

It's worth pointing out trump fans have an average household income of >70k. So clearly the draw isn't quite money. Hard to say, but they themselves claim it's racial resentment and it must be a coincidence has the older white male vote on lockdown.

 

[Jhhnn]

Yet despite all their billions of dollars and influence, they couldn't stop the frankenstein monster that is Trump from obliterating the Republican presidential field. You give the Koch brothers and those like them far more credit than they deserve, similar to how the right knee jerks to Soros.

As for Reaganomics, it has its flaws, but it is easy to sell. To a certain extent, many voters are simply to politically disengaged to understand what is being sold to them. On the other hand, Democrats are horrible at pitching their economic alternative, most likely because it lacks coherence.

Repub leaders have fanned the flames of bigotry & fear for decades, just a lot more quietly than Trump. At the same time they've enabled the looting of the economy & blamed de gubmint for what their free market ideology has accomplished. The cognitive dissonance that causes in their followers is huge. They can only compartmentalize just so much before they reconsider or burst out in fits of rage & frustration. That's what Trump has brought out, a great venting of conservative angst. They know they're getting screwed. They don't know that what they believe in is what's screwing them.

The people at the top of Republicanism got arrogant & complacent, thought they could control these poor propagandized people forever w/o delivering on anything. And why not? It worked for 30 years. That was until Trump saw it for what it is, an opportunity for demagoguery, believers desperately seeking leadership, seeking someone to believe in. The base has been primed & ready for a long time, yearning to hear what Trump knows they want to hear so he gives it to them.

I hope you don't think that Donald believes a word of it, because he doesn't. It's all weaponized insincerity.

 

[MongGrel]

Plunk.

We'll see how the next one goes.

Why seeing Trump’s tax returns really matters

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9be1oMCBOk

 

[agent00f]

Repub leaders have fanned the flames of bigotry & fear for decades, just a lot more quietly than Trump. At the same time they've enabled the looting of the economy & blamed de gubmint for what their free market ideology has accomplished. The cognitive dissonance that causes in their followers is huge. They can only compartmentalize just so much before they reconsider or burst out in fits of rage & frustration. That's what Trump has brought out, a great venting of conservative angst. They know they're getting screwed. They don't know that what they believe in is what's screwing them.

The people at the top of Republicanism got arrogant & complacent, thought they could control these poor propagandized people forever w/o delivering on anything. And why not? It worked for 30 years. That was until Trump saw it for what it is, an opportunity for demagoguery, believers desperately seeking leadership, seeking someone to believe in. The base has been primed & ready for a long time, yearning to hear what Trump knows they want to hear so he gives it to them.

I hope you don't think that Donald believes a word of it, because he doesn't. It's all weaponized insincerity.

While it's true that trump kicked over that rock, what was under it has always been there and much worse in the past, just covered up with the liberal media/schools and political correctness. It's also hard to argue that his fans are economic losers when their average home income is >70k.

When someone complains about money and minorities, and they seem to be doing well on money, there's only thing to conclude.

 

[Starbuck1975]

Repub leaders have fanned the flames of bigotry & fear for decades, just a lot more quietly than Trump. At the same time they've enabled the looting of the economy & blamed de gubmint for what their free market ideology has accomplished. The cognitive dissonance that causes in their followers is huge. They can only compartmentalize just so much before they reconsider or burst out in fits of rage & frustration. That's what Trump has brought out, a great venting of conservative angst. They know they're getting screwed. They don't know that what they believe in is what's screwing them.

The people at the top of Republicanism got arrogant & complacent, thought they could control these poor propagandized people forever w/o delivering on anything. And why not? It worked for 30 years. That was until Trump saw it for what it is, an opportunity for demagoguery, believers desperately seeking leadership, seeking someone to believe in. The base has been primed & ready for a long time, yearning to hear what Trump knows they want to hear so he gives it to them.

I hope you don't think that Donald believes a word of it, because he doesn't. It's all weaponized insincerity.

You are simplifying something that is very complex to fit your worldview. The economy of today is far different from the economy of 35 years ago. The same can be said for the Democrats and Republicans in terms of their respective coalitions. Sure the base may be largely unchanged, but you need more than the base to win elections.

Trickle down in the form of venture capitalism is why we have a Silicon Valley and has been the driver of the Information Age.

Trickle down does not work so well for traditional machinery based manufacturing regions of the country.

There was a time when someone could enjoy a comfortable middle class life without a college degree. Now you have millions of people getting worthless degrees instead of learning trades or practical skills for the new economy.

A large swath of America got left behind. They were betrayed by both Republicans and Democrats. Trump capitalized on it.

 

[emperus]

You are simplifying something that is very complex to fit your worldview. The economy of today is far different from the economy of 35 years ago. The same can be said for the Democrats and Republicans in terms of their respective coalitions. Sure the base may be largely unchanged, but you need more than the base to win elections.

Trickle down in the form of venture capitalism is why we have a Silicon Valley and has been the driver of the Information Age.

Trickle down does not work so well for traditional machinery based manufacturing regions of the country.

There was a time when someone could enjoy a comfortable middle class life without a college degree. Now you have millions of people getting worthless degrees instead of learning trades or practical skills for the new economy.

A large swath of America got left behind. They were betrayed by both Republicans and Democrats. Trump capitalized on it.

Well since you want to argue a false equivalency, can you please list some of the things the Republican party has done for it's respective coalition in the last 20 years? I know for a fact the Democratic party has won a lot (including civil liberties) for parts of its respective coalition.

It's incredible, the way Republicans tell it, it hasn't been their party fighting against their financial interests for the last 10 years. It's almost comical hearing Republicans argue that the system is rigged and that they want more conservative Supreme court justices, yet the conservative Supreme court gave us Citizens United. The biggest F U to less money in politics in a long time.

 

[Jhhnn]

Well since you want to argue a false equivalency, can you please list some of the things the Republican party has done for it's respective coalition in the last 20 years? I know for a fact the Democratic party has won a lot (including civil liberties) for parts of its respective coalition.

It's incredible, the way Republicans tell it, it hasn't been their party fighting against their financial interests for the last 10 years. It's almost comical hearing Republicans argue that the system is rigged and that they want more conservative Supreme court justices, yet the conservative Supreme court gave us Citizens United. The biggest F U to less money in politics in a long time.

Dems haven't provided just for members of their coalition but for everybody. That's what the alphabet soup of federal agencies are designed to accomplish- FDA, EPA, CFPB & the rest.

Republicans? Tear all that down. Free market! Let the buyer beware! Why, when the wealthy look to their own interests it makes life better for everybody just like it was in the Gilded Age!

 

[Starbuck1975]

Dems haven't provided just for members of their coalition but for everybody. That's what the alphabet soup of federal agencies are designed to accomplish- FDA, EPA, CFPB & the rest.

Republicans? Tear all that down. Free market! Let the buyer beware! Why, when the wealthy look to their own interests it makes life better for everybody just like it was in the Gilded Age!

Nixon proposed the EPA. Eisenhower launched one of the greatest New Deal infrastructure programs of the modern era. Reagan held the line during the Cold War. Bush demonstrated how to build international coalitions in a post Cold War world with the Gulf War.

You are free to throw darts at W all day. I wont defend his administration or the neo conservative movement.

 

[Starbuck1975]

Well since you want to argue a false equivalency, can you please list some of the things the Republican party has done for it's respective coalition in the last 20 years? I know for a fact the Democratic party has won a lot (including civil liberties) for parts of its respective coalition.

It's incredible, the way Republicans tell it, it hasn't been their party fighting against their financial interests for the last 10 years. It's almost comical hearing Republicans argue that the system is rigged and that they want more conservative Supreme court justices, yet the conservative Supreme court gave us Citizens United. The biggest F U to less money in politics in a long time.

Depends on what level of government you want to discuss. The people of Chicago, Oakland and Detroit are sure living in a liberal eutopia. NYC was a cesspool in the 70s until a string of republican mayors righted the ship. Obamacare was Romneycare prior, and Mitt was a fool to distance himself from it.

I dont care for neoconservatism, but you are painting in broad brushstrokes something that has a bit more nuance to it.

 

[nageov3t]

Depends on what level of government you want to discuss. The people of Chicago, Oakland and Detroit are sure living in a liberal eutopia. NYC was a cesspool in the 70s until a string of republican mayors righted the ship. Obamacare was Romneycare prior, and Mitt was a fool to distance himself from it.

I dont care for neoconservatism, but you are painting in broad brushstrokes something that has a bit more nuance to it.

does Rudy Guilini alone really count as a "string of Republican mayors"? because he's been the only one since 1969 (excluding Bloomberg, who was the literal definition of a RINO -- he nakedly only changed parties because he didn't want to be bothered competing in the Democratic mayoral primary)

his policies arguably had no impact on the city, really -- the crime decrease that NYC saw during his tenure was comparable to other major cities throughout the country that didn't resort to draconian and unconstitutional policies like stop and frisk.

 

[Starbuck1975]

does Rudy Guilini alone really count as a "string of Republican mayors"? because he's been the only one since 1969 (excluding Bloomberg, who was the literal definition of a RINO -- he nakedly only changed parties because he didn't want to be bothered competing in the Democratic mayoral primary)

his policies arguably had no impact on the city, really -- the crime decrease that NYC saw during his tenure was comparable to other major cities throughout the country that didn't resort to draconian and unconstitutional policies like stop and frisk.

It goes a lot farther than stop and frisk. Look at what Times Square and 42nd street were in the 70s and compare that to where the city is now. Giuliani and Bloomberg deserve credit for transforming NYC and it was not a transformation uniformly experienced across most cities in America.

As for Bloomberg being a RINO, I find that the most effective leaders tend to occupy the middle, where the distinction between one party or the other is more vague.

 

[fskimospy]

It goes a lot farther than stop and frisk. Look at what Times Square and 42nd street were in the 70s and compare that to where the city is now. Giuliani and Bloomberg deserve credit for transforming NYC and it was not a transformation uniformly experienced across most cities in America.

As for Bloomberg being a RINO, I find that the most effective leaders tend to occupy the middle, where the distinction between one party or the other is more vague.

It actually was a trend experienced across most cities in America and it was a trend that predated Giuliani by about 5 years. In fact, the national violent crime rate is about half what it was in 1990.

While New York is certainly much safer now than it was in 1990, it's very unclear if Giuliani or Bloomberg deserve literally any credit for the decline as cities across America saw similar declines during that time period. Stop and frisk certainly deserves basically no credit, as not only does empirical research show it is ineffective, the last few years of data in NYC show that it wasn't a factor in holding down crime.

 

[bshole]

It actually was a trend experienced across most cities in America and it was a trend that predated Giuliani by about 5 years. In fact, the national violent crime rate is about half what it was in 1990.

While New York is certainly much safer now than it was in 1990, it's very unclear if Giuliani or Bloomberg deserve literally any credit for the decline as cities across America saw similar declines during that time period. Stop and frisk certainly deserves basically no credit, as not only does empirical research show it is ineffective, the last few years of data in NYC show that it wasn't a factor in holding down crime.

Roe v Wade explains it quite well. This was dividend of removing unwanted children from the table. Check out 18 years after Roe V Wade because that is when the benefit really started kicking in in earnest.