Let's all play the latest Republican game of chance

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: Termagant If the immigrants were legal these WASPs would still oppose their presence. This mentality is what leads to the cries of racism.

That might well be true--if they were legal, people might still oppose it. Would you oppose legal immigration if it meant that 50 million people were allowed to immigrate every year? The real issue is not one of legal or illegal immigration, but rather mass immigration. Aside from global labor arbitrage, another issue is whether or not the people entering the country will end up consuming more money in government services than they pay in in tax dollars. (Another issue is the increase in the costs of land and real state as a result of an increased demand resulting from having an increased popluation.) It's not necessarily all baseless xenophobia and racism.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie
Illegal aliens are breaking the law (one law) by being in America, but it's a stretch to call them criminals because of this.

ok smart guy, how is someone who breaks a law NOT a "criminal," by the very definition of the word?

Criminal = someone who commits a crime. period.

The severity of the crime, or the nature of the offense are irrelevant; therefore, the term "criminal" does apply quite accurately.

illegal immigrant = criminal.

 

[BoomerD]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie
Illegal aliens are breaking the law (one law) by being in America, but it's a stretch to call them criminals because of this.

ok smart guy, how is someone who breaks a law NOT a "criminal," by the very definition of the word?

Criminal = someone who commits a crime. period.

The severity of the crime, or the nature of the offense are irrelevant; therefore, the term "criminal" does apply quite accurately.

Wow...there may not be many places where we agree, but this is one of them.
Living in Kahleeforneeya, I get to see first hand the results of the "Illegal Invasion". They bring crime with them in mass quantities. Car thefts, drugs, assaults, murder, etc. My daily newspaper posts pics of everyone arrested in the past week for car theft. USUALLY, over half of them are Mexicans, generally gang-bangers. How many are illegal? Don't know, but the odds are that many are.
There's a story almost weekly about someone suspected of a serious crime who's believed to have run back to Mexico. VERY rare that they are caught once they skip.

 

[3chordcharlie]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie
Illegal aliens are breaking the law (one law) by being in America, but it's a stretch to call them criminals because of this.

ok smart guy, how is someone who breaks a law NOT a "criminal," by the very definition of the word?

Criminal = someone who commits a crime. period.

The severity of the crime, or the nature of the offense are irrelevant; therefore, the term "criminal" does apply quite accurately.

illegal immigrant = criminal.

You may have missed out on what 'begging the question' means.

An illegal immigrant who commits some other crime is a criminal, one who is simply here illegally is subject to what? Being sent home.

What is the statue and civil penalty or jail term that applies to illegal immigrants? Can you get a criminal record just for overstaying your visa?

As far as I can tell, being an illegal immigrant is not a crime.

 

[BoomerD]

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie
Illegal aliens are breaking the law (one law) by being in America, but it's a stretch to call them criminals because of this.

ok smart guy, how is someone who breaks a law NOT a "criminal," by the very definition of the word?

Criminal = someone who commits a crime. period.

The severity of the crime, or the nature of the offense are irrelevant; therefore, the term "criminal" does apply quite accurately.

illegal immigrant = criminal.

You may have missed out on what 'begging the question' means.

An illegal immigrant who commits some other crime is a criminal, one who is simply here illegally is subject to what? Being sent home.

What is the statue and civil penalty or jail term that applies to illegal immigrants? Can you get a criminal record just for overstaying your visa?

As far as I can tell, being an illegal immigrant is not a crime.

Since, according to US Law, they have to provide the proper identification to be employed here, so if they ARE holding a job, what documentation do they give? All too often, it's stolen, forged or otherwise fraudulent. ANY of those makes it a crime punishable by law, NOT just deportation...

 

[JD50]

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie
Illegal aliens are breaking the law (one law) by being in America, but it's a stretch to call them criminals because of this.

ok smart guy, how is someone who breaks a law NOT a "criminal," by the very definition of the word?

Criminal = someone who commits a crime. period.

The severity of the crime, or the nature of the offense are irrelevant; therefore, the term "criminal" does apply quite accurately.

illegal immigrant = criminal.

You may have missed out on what 'begging the question' means.

An illegal immigrant who commits some other crime is a criminal, one who is simply here illegally is subject to what? Being sent home.

What is the statue and civil penalty or jail term that applies to illegal immigrants? Can you get a criminal record just for overstaying your visa?

As far as I can tell, being an illegal immigrant is not a crime.

What are you smoking?

Edit - Title 8 Section 1325 of the U.S. Code

Under Title 8 Section 1325 of the U.S. Code, "Improper Entry by Alien," any citizen of any country other than the United States who:

Enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers; or

Eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers; or

Attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact;
has committed a federal crime.

Violations are punishable by criminal fines and imprisonment for up to six months. Repeat offenses can bring up to two years in prison. Additional civil fines may be imposed at the discretion of immigration judges, but civil fines do not negate the criminal sanctions or nature of the offense

 

[palehorse]

*crickets*

 

[3chordcharlie]

Originally posted by: JD50

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie
Illegal aliens are breaking the law (one law) by being in America, but it's a stretch to call them criminals because of this.

ok smart guy, how is someone who breaks a law NOT a "criminal," by the very definition of the word?

Criminal = someone who commits a crime. period.

The severity of the crime, or the nature of the offense are irrelevant; therefore, the term "criminal" does apply quite accurately.

illegal immigrant = criminal.

You may have missed out on what 'begging the question' means.

An illegal immigrant who commits some other crime is a criminal, one who is simply here illegally is subject to what? Being sent home.

What is the statue and civil penalty or jail term that applies to illegal immigrants? Can you get a criminal record just for overstaying your visa?

As far as I can tell, being an illegal immigrant is not a crime.

What are you smoking?

Edit - Title 8 Section 1325 of the U.S. Code

Under Title 8 Section 1325 of the U.S. Code, "Improper Entry by Alien," any citizen of any country other than the United States who:

Enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers; or

Eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers; or

Attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact;
has committed a federal crime.

Violations are punishable by criminal fines and imprisonment for up to six months. Repeat offenses can bring up to two years in prison. Additional civil fines may be imposed at the discretion of immigration judges, but civil fines do not negate the criminal sanctions or nature of the offense

While I still don't agree with the characterization, I stand corrected - the closest I could find looking was a specific statute making it a crime both to smuggle immigrants into Arizona, and to be smuggled.

I've gone on record many times saying that the flow of illegal immigrants needs to be stopped, and replaced with a somewhat smaller amount of planned immigration.

Equating all illegals with the real crimes commited by some is common, and ridiculous, but I suppose calling all of them criminals is at least nominally accurate.

Originally posted by: palehorse74
*crickets*

I was gone for an hour.

 

[OrByte]

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper
The difference is that in principle the problem with illegal immigration is easy to fix--throw them out. In contrast, we can't throw out the drug and the gang problems. Whereas I don't think drugs should be illegal, I agree that we need to deal with the problem of lawbreaking gangs. So, speaking for myself, there isn't any contradiction or hypocracy on my position on illegal immigration, at least in these regards.

You think it is easy to just throw out all the illegals?! uhh huh. You might have a problem with that. The rest of your comment is best left for another thread.

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper
What's real sad is that appologists for illegal and mass immigration trivialize all of the economic and social problems that illegal immigration and mass immigration cause and all of the damage it inflicts on the American people, especially the lower classes.

Hmmmm I wouldn't call it trivialization as much as rationalization. I think there are people willing to weigh the economic and social problems that illegals represent against the economic and social benefits that illegals present. The issue just isn't as horrible as people make it out to be.

Well, when looking at what those college kids did, even though it is harmless it certainly seems in bad taste. Everyday you have people dying out in deserts trying to get into this country, I just don't think it is something that can be treated so flippantly. Would you feel comfortable turning something like that into a game? Would you participate?

 

[OrByte]

Originally posted by: BoomerD

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie
Illegal aliens are breaking the law (one law) by being in America, but it's a stretch to call them criminals because of this.

ok smart guy, how is someone who breaks a law NOT a "criminal," by the very definition of the word?

Criminal = someone who commits a crime. period.

The severity of the crime, or the nature of the offense are irrelevant; therefore, the term "criminal" does apply quite accurately.

Wow...there may not be many places where we agree, but this is one of them.
Living in Kahleeforneeya, I get to see first hand the results of the "Illegal Invasion". They bring crime with them in mass quantities. Car thefts, drugs, assaults, murder, etc. My daily newspaper posts pics of everyone arrested in the past week for car theft. USUALLY, over half of them are Mexicans, generally gang-bangers. How many are illegal? Don't know, but the odds are that many are.
There's a story almost weekly about someone suspected of a serious crime who's believed to have run back to Mexico. VERY rare that they are caught once they skip.

but like you said, you DON'T know.

These people commit a crime when they enter into this country illegally that much is certain. And some of them are bad and act like criminals, your everyday thugs. But I refuse to believe that all illegals act in criminal ways, especially when you have millions here working and spending money just like you and I every day. So when I hear the rhetoric about an "invasion" or "war on illegals" I really hope people keep some perspective that not all illegals deserve to be treated like criminals and "hunted down" or "shot on sight" or all the other Rambo BS people like to spew.

 

[BoomerD]

Nope, I don't advocate hunting them down and shooting them, but I WOULD support sending them ALL back to their country of origin...as I've often posted before...

 

[judasmachine]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Immigrants are like Iraq. We f@cked ourselves and now there's no good way out.

You just nailed just about every problem we face. It's just sad that solutions are never pursued, just bickering.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: OrByte
You think it is easy to just throw out all the illegals?! uhh huh. You might have a problem with that. The rest of your comment is best left for another thread.

It wouldn't be easy but it has to be easier than paying for their health care, education, incarceration, costs of crimes committed, and increased population costs.

Well, when looking at what those college kids did, even though it is harmless it certainly seems in bad taste. Everyday you have people dying out in deserts trying to get into this country, I just don't think it is something that can be treated so flippantly. Would you feel comfortable turning something like that into a game? Would you participate?

I feel badly for these folks and I don't blame for breaking into the United States, but at the same time I think that we need to take care of ourselves and our fellow Americans first. Tens of millions of Americans live in poverty and need the assistance of their fellow Americans, so why should we spend resources on the poor from other countries? As for the Mexicans, they need to reform their country and figure out how to eliminate government corruption and turn it into a market economy.

The College Republicans didn't turn anything into a game; they merely used a silly game of hide-and-seek as a way to increase awareness about a political issue (much to the chagrin of the Republican Party itself).

 

[catnap1972]

Originally posted by: BoomerD
Nope, I don't advocate hunting them down and shooting them, but I WOULD support sending them ALL back to their country of origin...as I've often posted before...

So do you also support jailing (or deporting) the companies that are employing them?

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: BoomerD
Nope, I don't advocate hunting them down and shooting them, but I WOULD support sending them ALL back to their country of origin...as I've often posted before...

I like Carlos Mencia's idea of sending them back to different countries... much funnier!

 

[BoomerD]

Originally posted by: catnap1972

Originally posted by: BoomerD
Nope, I don't advocate hunting them down and shooting them, but I WOULD support sending them ALL back to their country of origin...as I've often posted before...

So do you also support jailing (or deporting) the companies that are employing them?

Heavy fines for hiring them, maybe even jail time for multiple/blatant offenses.


It's amazing to me, that in this predominantly english speaking country, that plants of all kinds have to post everything in (at least) 2 languages, governments have to print/post things in NUMEROUS languages, even driving tests & election ballots.
As a kid, I grew up in western Mass., in a neighborhood that was divided between Italian and Polish. Learning & speaking english was a must for new immigrants, and they were PROUD to do so. Did they occasionally revert to their native tongues from time to time? Absolutely, but in public, ENGLISH ONLY was the unwritten rule...

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: Fern
This whole "KKK" is exploding due to immigration etc is a pile of crap. A fake story.

If you drill down to the underlaying data, compiled by the Souther Poverty Law center (IRC), you'll find that the KKK chapters/members actually shrank in '06.

Of course, because that's not really interesting it's left out of the story. They actually try instead to make the case that immigration is causing a rise in KKK chapters, contrary to the actual data.
Fern

Sure thing, why don't you post a link to the data and we'll all take a look.

Ooops, sorry I didn't se this until now. I'll see if I can hunt up (yah search function) the older thread about the story and give you the link.

EDIT: Couldn't find the exact same data but this should do it.

The Link

WASHINGTON (AFP) - The white supremacist Ku Klux Klan, long associated with lynchings and burning crosses, is staging a comeback in the US by exploiting the volatile issue of immigration, experts and rights groups say.

According to a report released this month by the Anti-Defamation League (ADL), the Klan has experienced a "surprising and troubling resurgence" in the last year, mainly because of the debate raging over the 11 million, mostly Hispanic, illegal immigrants now living in the United States...........

Mark Potok of the Southern Poverty Law Center........ said the number of Klan chapters rose from 110 in 2000 to 179 in 2005 but fell to about 150 last year.

I think it's a crappy article. They go on to talk about (specifically) the Klan "staging a comeback", experiencing a "surprising and troubling resurgence in the last year", but then further down Mark Potok of the Southern Poverty Law Center (the group that actually tracks the KKK) reports a DECLINE in KKK chapters during 2006?

Seems reporters these days won't let the facts get in the way of their story. I felt they chose to use the "klan" to generate more interest in the story. They should have used "anti-immigration" groups, and then explained what is meant by "anti-immigration group" and why those are lumped in together with the KKK in the story.

"We have seen more than 250 new anti-immigration groups formed in this country since April 2005," said Mark Potok of the Southern Poverty Law Center

Fern

 

[DealMonkey]

I don't know Fern, it sounds like overall, hate group membership appears to be up and they expect the 2006 numbers to be even higher.

 

[DealMonkey]

"We have seen more than 250 new anti-immigration groups formed in this country since April 2005," said Mark Potok of the Southern Poverty Law Center, which tracks hate groups. "It's a movement that has spread like a prairie fire."

He said the number of Klan chapters rose from 110 in 2000 to 179 in 2005 but fell to about 150 last year.

Overall, there were 803 hate groups in the US in 2005 but the 2006 figures are expected to show an increase, Potok said.

 

[piasabird]

So what if you accuse someone of being the illegal immigrant and it is just some honest person who came here legally? This is kind of like inciting a riot. I dont really think it is a very good idea. However, it may point out a reason why we need a national ID Card system.

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
I don't know Fern, it sounds like overall, hate group membership appears to be up and they expect the 2006 numbers to be even higher.

My objection to the article is that they make a concious effort to lead the reader to the conclusion that the KLAN is growing because of this issue, when their underlying "factional" data is the opposite.

Had they left the Klan out of it, I would not complain. I prolly wouldn't even had posted. But, for me anyway, I am keenly interested in what they refer to as "hate groups"?

You see, for "pro-immigration" people those like me who oppose illegal immigration are "haters" & racists.

Are these so-called hate groups they refer to merely the Minute Men thingy that watches the border? I don't know how they define "hate groups", and they don't say. Personally, I don't think of the Minute men etc as hate groups.

If, OTOH they are refering to "skinheads" and NeoNazi's I would agree with the term hate Group. Unfortunely, the article doesn't provide that data. I just think it's a crappily written article.

Fern

 

[JD50]

Originally posted by: Fern

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
I don't know Fern, it sounds like overall, hate group membership appears to be up and they expect the 2006 numbers to be even higher.

My objection to the article is that they make a concious effort to lead the reader to the conclusion that the KLAN is growing because of this issue, when their underlying "factional" data is the opposite.

Had they left the Klan out of it, I would not complain. I prolly wouldn't even had posted. But, for me anyway, I am keenly interested in what they refer to as "hate groups"?

You see, for "pro-immigration" people those like me who oppose illegal immigration are "haters" & racists.

Are these so-called hate groups they refer to merely the Minute Men thingy that watches the border? I don't know how they define "hate groups", and they don't say. Personally, I don't think of the Minute men etc as hate groups.

If, OTOH they are refering to "skinheads" and NeoNazi's I would agree with the term hate Group. Unfortunely, the article doesn't provide that data. I just think it's a crappily written article.

Fern

I find it funny how in that article they use the terms "hate-group" and "anti-immigration group" interchangeably.