Let me bounce something philosophical off you guys for just a minute here...

[UglyCasanova]

Originally posted by: Zakath15

Originally posted by: Beast1284

i was trying to prove that you cant really invent something new, just modify it... i am not saying that what i have said is 100% truth, but until you talk about something like this with a bunch of people, how can your views mature?

Everything we do, in some form or fashion, is influenced by our upbringing, our culture, and the people we associate with. Surrealist art is unique, yes, but it is still influenced by every day occurrences.

If one is isolated from the rest of society, placed on a remote island or something, what then? If they have no other people or culture to go off of, they are forced to find their own way to survive. Granted they would only amount to a very primative person, but everything they did wouldn't be based on culture but rather what they had learned. Their thoughts and actions truely are theirs, in a sense a truely free will. None of this changes the fact that they are a human being though.

 

[Orsorum]

Originally posted by: dparker

If one is isolated from the rest of society, placed on a remote island or something, what then? If they have no other people or culture to go off of, they are forced to find their own way to survive. Granted they would only amount to a very primative person, but everything they did wouldn't be based on culture but rather what they had learned. Their thoughts and actions truely are theirs, in a sense a truely free will. None of this changes the fact that they are a human being though.

Depends on when you isolate that person. A young child, a baby, will inevitably die on its own. I believe it's been proven that a human being will die after a certain amount of physical and emotional isolation.

 

[Pastore]

Originally posted by: dparker

Originally posted by: Zakath15

Originally posted by: Beast1284

i was trying to prove that you cant really invent something new, just modify it... i am not saying that what i have said is 100% truth, but until you talk about something like this with a bunch of people, how can your views mature?

Everything we do, in some form or fashion, is influenced by our upbringing, our culture, and the people we associate with. Surrealist art is unique, yes, but it is still influenced by every day occurrences.

If one is isolated from the rest of society, placed on a remote island or something, what then? If they have no other people or culture to go off of, they are forced to find their own way to survive. Granted they would only amount to a very primative person, but everything they did wouldn't be based on culture but rather what they had learned. Their thoughts and actions truely are theirs, in a sense a truely free will. None of this changes the fact that they are a human being though.

the point is, they won't survive. without being taught, how are they going to know that that thing over there is food. they dont know what hunger is, so they can not eat something to cure their hunger.

im assuming you are speaking of infants

 

[Skyclad1uhm1]

Originally posted by: Zakath15

Originally posted by: Skyclad1uhm1

Considering the percentage of dumb people that is not surprising.

What was the poll taken? That the percentage of people who believe the earth is less than 6000 years old increases as overall education level decreases?

Just look at the number of people still stupid enough to need religion.

 

[UglyCasanova]

i think of it as the theory of evolution, but with our knowledge. one generation, you can see that a bird has a particular bone structure, the next generation will not be completely different (a completely new idea). it will have changed a little bit. and what do evolutionists believe? that our whole world stemmed from one little thing, big bang, whatever you want to call it. i can view this as one little thought, that grew into what we know today.

For example, the beginnings of a thought might be in the mind of a person in one generation. but it might take some more generations for the thought do develop more. make sense?

So all of our thoughts and actions are the result of one original thought that has evolved over time? Where does this original though come from, and without the ability to think how does it evolve?

 

[Moonbeam]

How did Einstien imagine relativity or doubt Heisenberg.

uncJIGGA, thanks for the interesting stuff on Jains. I knew and old man who fought in ww2 and saw terrible stuff that maybe put him a bit around the bend. I was doing some work with addresses and started picturing the actual houses out of boordom. He was around a corner behind some cases and suddenly came roaring around the corner demanding to know what I was doing, that he saw pictures comming off of me. That kind of freaked me out, but after I got to know him better he told me that one day he was watching a bird fly by and all of a sudden he was the bird. He could see everything just as if he were looking out of it's eyes. He told me that later on he began to leave his body at different moments, like when he was sitting in church, he would fly right out the window and be able to look around. He said that one time he did that and it was raining and when he came back there were raindrops on his shirt. He told me that one time he met somebody out there somewhere and they asked him if he was one of them. He said it scared the crap out of him because he didn't know who one of them was. If all that stuff was true I can't say but I know I was intentionally just for fun picturing houses when he came round the corner demanding to know why there were pictures comming off of me.

 

[Orsorum]

Originally posted by: Skyclad1uhm1

Originally posted by: Zakath15

Originally posted by: Skyclad1uhm1

Considering the percentage of dumb people that is not surprising.

What was the poll taken? That the percentage of people who believe the earth is less than 6000 years old increases as overall education level decreases?

Just look at the number of people still stupid enough to need religion.

I don't necessarily find religion to be a sign of a stupid person. One of my informal literary mentors (CS Lewis) found something in Christianity. However, unwarranted belief is, IMO, foolish.

The unexamined life is not worth living.

 

[Pastore]

So all of our thoughts and actions are the result of one original thought that has evolved over time?

maybe, i dunno... but I really hope you don't believe in the theory of evolution if you are asking me that. and i have no idea where to start with your other questions, havent thought about it deep enough...

anyways, this is enough talk about this for the night, ill check it in the morning

 

[UglyCasanova]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
How did Einstien imagine relativity or doubt Heisenberg.

uncJIGGA, thanks for the interesting stuff on Jains. I knew and old man who fought in ww2 and saw terrible stuff that maybe put him a bit around the bend. I was doing some work with addresses and started picturing the actual houses out of boordom. He was around a corner behind some cases and suddenly came roaring around the corner demanding to know what I was doing, that he saw pictures comming off of me. That kind of freaked me out, but after I got to know him better he told me that one day he was watching a bird fly by and all of a sudden he was the bird. He could see everything just as if he were looking out of it's eyes. He told me that later on he began to leave his body at different moments, like when he was sitting in church, he would fly right out the window and be able to look around. He said that one time he did that and it was raining and when he came back there were raindrops on his shirt. He told me that one time he met somebody out there somewhere and they asked him if he was one of them. He said it scared the crap out of him because he didn't know who one of them was. If all that stuff was true I can't say but I know I was intentionally just for fun picturing houses when he came round the corner demanding to know why there were pictures comming off of me.

Lol. WTF are you talking about?

I really hope you don't believe in the theory of evolution if you are asking me that. and i have no idea where to start with your other questions, havent thought about it deep enough...

I'm just seeing if that is your stance.

 

[diskop]

Originally posted by: Beast1284

Originally posted by: dparker

Originally posted by: Zakath15

Originally posted by: Beast1284

i was trying to prove that you cant really invent something new, just modify it... i am not saying that what i have said is 100% truth, but until you talk about something like this with a bunch of people, how can your views mature?

Everything we do, in some form or fashion, is influenced by our upbringing, our culture, and the people we associate with. Surrealist art is unique, yes, but it is still influenced by every day occurrences.

If one is isolated from the rest of society, placed on a remote island or something, what then? If they have no other people or culture to go off of, they are forced to find their own way to survive. Granted they would only amount to a very primative person, but everything they did wouldn't be based on culture but rather what they had learned. Their thoughts and actions truely are theirs, in a sense a truely free will. None of this changes the fact that they are a human being though.

the point is, they won't survive. without being taught, how are they going to know that that thing over there is food. they dont know what hunger is, so they can not eat something to cure their hunger.

im assuming you are speaking of infants

Wait, where are you getting this information. I'll list an example. In a scienfic lab study, a group of children, about 3 to 5 years old, were placed in a room all by themselves given an assortment of food to eat. Those foods included candy, ice cream, lots of other junk food, vegetables, and other more nutricious foods. The kids went for the junk food first, and for the first few days they ate nothing but. Then, their bodies realized they needed other nourishment, so they went for the healthy foods, even though it tasted awful.

My point is, babies and infants put stuff in their mouths because it's instinctual, they want to eat things. They don't know that thing over there is NOT food, not the other way around. They would want to eat everything, and learn what to eat and what not to eat. You're not accounting for instinctual behavior. When they get hungry, they will put stuff into their mouths because it will cure the hunger.

 

[Orsorum]

Originally posted by: diskop

Wait, where are you getting this information. I'll list an example. In a scienfic lab study, a group of children, about 3 to 5 years old, were placed in a room all by themselves given an assortment of food to eat. Those foods included candy, ice cream, lots of other junk food, vegetables, and other more nutricious foods. The kids went for the junk food first, and for the first few days they ate nothing but. Then, their bodies realized they needed other nourishment, so they went for the healthy foods, even though it tasted awful.

My point is, babies and infants put stuff in their mouths because it's instinctual, they want to eat things. They don't know that thing over there is NOT food, not the other way around. They would want to eat everything, and learn what to eat and what not to eat. You're not accounting for instinctual behavior. When they get hungry, they will put stuff into their mouths because it will cure the hunger.

They will survive so long as they can satisfy their basic physical needs. Without culture, without other people, they most likely will not develop any further. At least that's my understanding.

 

[B00ne]

Originally posted by: Beast1284
then explain that to me. how can a person come up with something like that that he hasn't learned? we imagine things by comparing them to things we already know.

AFAIK, it was proven a long time ago that the only human instinct was the sucking on a mothers breast, everything else is learned.

Simple example: The general theory of relativity did not exsist before Einsteins mind came up with that concept also it is a very weird concept to grasp and even today only very few ppl are able to understand. Now nothing comparable exsisted before. Now u tell me where he learned all that - in heaven???
No he just thaught it up with his brain - human phantasy has no limits.

Anyway, newer brain studies found out/believe that god (religion) is a concept that our brain seems to infuse into us so we dont get to confused. (this is a very simplified version, as I dont remember what the article exactly said but it was pretty recently (couple months ago) that might be all wrong off course)

 

[diskop]

Originally posted by: Zakath15

Originally posted by: diskop

Wait, where are you getting this information. I'll list an example. In a scienfic lab study, a group of children, about 3 to 5 years old, were placed in a room all by themselves given an assortment of food to eat. Those foods included candy, ice cream, lots of other junk food, vegetables, and other more nutricious foods. The kids went for the junk food first, and for the first few days they ate nothing but. Then, their bodies realized they needed other nourishment, so they went for the healthy foods, even though it tasted awful.

My point is, babies and infants put stuff in their mouths because it's instinctual, they want to eat things. They don't know that thing over there is NOT food, not the other way around. They would want to eat everything, and learn what to eat and what not to eat. You're not accounting for instinctual behavior. When they get hungry, they will put stuff into their mouths because it will cure the hunger.

They will survive so long as they can satisfy their basic physical needs. Without culture, without other people, they most likely will not develop any further. At least that's my understanding.

Wait, I rescind my earlier statement I just remembered that human babies, like marsupials, are completely defenseless and cannot feed or care for themselves at birth. So yes, they will die. However, culture doesn't develop in one generation, it takes a long time for it to evolve. If a man were to live 1000 years, or maybe 10,000 years, I do believe he would develop some kind of culture. Primitive, yes, but it should be there nonetheless. Not verbal or written, as he doesn't have any need to communicate, but something

 

[Moonbeam]

dparker quote: Lol. WTF are you talking about?
---------------------------------------------------------------

I thought you were going to tell me.

Who is 'them' and where were they?

Maybe they were Jains but as for where, well 'out there' is all I know.

 

[UglyCasanova]

I thought you were going to tell me.

Who is 'them' and where were they?

Maybe they were Jains but as for where, well 'out there' is all I know.

I'm still lost. Do you actually mean anything, or are you just typing?

 

[broon]

There are plenty of unbiased FACTs that indicate the person known as Jesus existed. There are facts that indicate he existed and was in the locations the bible says he was. There have been scientist and historians that can substantiate the New Testament. It's also interesting that Christianity is the oldest religion (Edit still practiced by more than three people)other than Judeism.

 

[UglyCasanova]

Originally posted by: broon
There are plenty of unbiased FACTs that indicate the person known as Jesus existed. There are facts that indicate he existed and was in the locations the bible says he was. There have been scientist and historians that can substantiate the New Testament. It's also interesting that Christianity is the oldest religion other than Judeism.

Are you serious? Pick up a damn history book :disgust:

 

[B00ne]

Man it's Moonbeam...... what did u expect

 

[Orsorum]

Originally posted by: broon
There are plenty of unbiased FACTs that indicate the person known as Jesus existed. There are facts that indicate he existed and was in the locations the bible says he was. There have been scientist and historians that can substantiate the New Testament. It's also interesting that Christianity is the oldest religion other than Judeism.

Give me facts that say that Jesus existed other than a few side remarks about the "christians" from Roman governors and a misplaced, fraudulent quote from Josephus. EDIT: should read two quotes - both show signs of interpolation by later Christian scribes

What about Paganism, Buddhism, Taoism, Shintoism (not quite sure on that one), not to mention animistic and goddess-worship?

 

[broon]

Ok. I edited my previous post.

Zakath15 - If you are interested in this subject, I suggest reading the book "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel. It gives some arguments that Jesus existed. I am in now way trying to convince anyone that Christianity is the way to go or saying everyone else is wrong. I am merely trying to offer some information.

 

[Rainsford]

Interesting thought, but the question is flawed. Nothing in the bible breaks any kind of boundry at all. Gods existed for thousands of years before the bible, and despite claims to the contrary, the Christian God has a lot in common with earlier Gods. These Gods came from a feeling of "smallness" that humans get when we see what a fantastic world we are surrounded by. Early humans could not even come close to understanding the world, so they decided that there must be some powerful force behind it. This force gradually turned into one or more Gods. There is nothing mystical or spiritual about this, just a result of humans trying to make sense of the world around them.

 

[broon]

I think it's completely possible that the Christian God and other gods in single god religions could be the same...previous to the New Testament.

 

[AznMaverick]

well, i believe that a higher being gave us the wisdom/understanding/knowledge to think up these things. without the help of this higher being i don't think all these things could be made possible, at all.

Originally posted by: dparker
Using your logic society could not possibly exist as we know it today. Technology and innovation would be at a stand-still because we would be incapable of going out on a limb and discovering new things. How did we invent the wheel. Who taught it to us? What about domesticating animals? Just because something hasn't been thought of before doesn't mean that it can't be thought of. Hell, look at Einstein. He changed the way we viewed our universe. No one had ever thought of the things he had. By your logic, how did he do this?

 

[Moonbeam]

This idea reminds me of the notion of Platonic Forms, circles exist because there is the ideal pure idea of a circle that exists, I guess in idea land.

If you read the whole thread, dparker, you might see that I was talking to uncJIGGA regarding his post and if you didn't read his post mine wouldn't make any sense at all. In fact, the reason I addressed it to him was because it related specifically to his post and only his post.

You, several of you, act as though I were strange, and yet you blow by a post like uncJIGGA's containing the most astonishing information, like it wasn't even there. Not that I'm surprised.

I don't want to rain on anybody's parade, but the thing that piques my curiosity here more than anything else is exactly what he's seen that makes him think some of the stuff he listed he doesn't believe may still be true. I want to know what he's seem. I'm interested because my beliefs seem to correspond to a lot of what he said:

The reason that man could think up the notion of God is because God is what man is, the fully functional, unconditioned, man that is. God is a projection of our potential, the potential that was fully realized by and in Christ, for example.

 

[Turkey]

So here's what I'm reading... in Beast1284's world, nothing "new" has ever been created or ever will be created. All knowledge has been present since the beginning of time, and only different combinations of this knowledge has resulted in advancement. Is this correct?

So I'll just term the combining of ideas the creative process... who's to say that these writers didn't use the creative process to come up with God?

Also by your thinking, the human mind cannot understand the type of being that is God. Yet we write about it all the time. Bringing up another fundamental flaw in this situation: a person doesn't have to understand an entity to write about it. The person doesn't even have to understand what they're writing (or that they're writing at all).

Also, your situation assumes there is a world that is separate from your interpretation of it. IE, if other people don't exist and the world exists only in your brain, where does all knowledge come from now?

There's more, but yeah... this situation doesn't completely rule out the belief that God does not exist.