Leaked ATI S.I. 6870 benchmark

[RussianSensation]

I too agree with 3DVagabond. Every Nvidia fan thought the release prices for GTX460 were fantastic when compared to AMD. Now we have about a 25-30 % sale price drop and these guys are saying, things are cool.

Yes guys, everything is A OK in Nvidia land. They dropped the price because they love you.

Let's assume 5850 sells for $260 with a $130 profit margin (50%). Let's assume GTX460 sells for $200 with a $100 profit margin (since it's similar in size and also has 1GB of ram, manufactured on same 40nm process, assume 50% profit margin). So ATI sells 10 5850s, while NV would need to sell 13 GTX460s at $200 to make the same gross profit. The difference is, while the absolute gross profit is the same for both ATI and NV ($1300), NV just sold 30% more cards (i.e. increased market share by 30%).

This is just a simplified example. But you can see how NV can sell 2x as many GTX460s and get the same gross profit as ATI (for example, if you increase your inventory turnover 2x while reducing gross margin by 50%, you arrive at the same gross profit --> Sell 100% inventory at 100% gross margin = 2x 100% inventory *50% gross margin).

Maybe NV is fine with lower gross margins than ATI if they can still make the same gross profit in absolute terms, while increasing market share at the cost of lower gross margins (Revenue - COGS). It could very well be that they are trying to increase market share at the cost of losing profitability per each card sold, however, maintaining overall gross profits through larger volume of sales.

Remember guys, Total Gross Profit = Profitability per card x Number of cards sold

So if I can sell 3x as many cards by lowering profitability 20%, I am going to take that because my Total Gross Profit is going to rise by 300% * 0.8 (reduced gross margins due to lower prices by 20%) = 240%.

To assume that NV can't sell GTX460s at higher margins is too simplistic. They probably can, but it may not maximize Gross Profits or market share gains. I think there is a confusion between Gross Margin per each card sold vs. Total Gross Profits which are tied to both margins and volumes of inventory sold.

Bottom line is, it's too complicated to know for sure why NV is pricing their cards lower - we don't know if their motivation is gaining back market share, if 58xx are still outselling 4xx series forcing NV to lower prices, or if the resellers have purchased large stocks of cards beforehand and now have excess inventory they need to clear out. We don't know if the resellers/retailers/wholesalers are taking a hit with lower prices or if NV is sponsoring these price cuts either. Not enough info.

 

[3DVagabond]

I was thinking it more likely they'd EOL the 58** series. It's not particularly overwhelming against the 460 and would likely not get better against newer nVidia releases as time goes on.

 

[maddie]

As an observation, I would suggest that some members here belong to a marketing machine.

Many before me might have also suggested this, but the uselessness of their posts are amusing. I would argue that almost everyone here can appreciate technology articles and will come to their own decision on what card to buy, based on his or her unique needs.

As a positive note. If anyone is getting paid to scream on the forums, then I'm glad, as we need all the jobs we can get.

 

[bryanW1995]

huh, what do you mean? do you think that amd (gasp) has their own focus group now??? creig got banned a few years ago for having the balls to suggest that rollo was a focus group member. tread wisely in that area.

 

[tincart]

Yes guys, everything is A OK in Nvidia land. They dropped the price because they love you.

Sales, at least up to the latest quarter have probably been poor. The Days Sales in Inventory (DSI) ratio for nV has increased 82% over the last four quarters and was up to 75 days for the latest quarter.

In brief, DSI tells us how much inventory nV is holding, on average, over a given year and how long it takes to sell that inventory. If you take the average sales for last quarter, it would have taken nV 75 days to turn its inventory on hand into sales.

AMD's DSI was actually terrible as well, but I don't know how to get a number just for ATi products. I imagine graphics inventory is moving more quickly than AMD CPU's.

If this is still true, nV is dropping prices to clear out a build-up of inventory.

 

[OCGuy]

^
The "market share" numbers that came out a couple weeks back were for units shipped. And AMD was barely ahead. So nV is still moving units.

And this was before 460 was taken into account.

 

[Skurge]

How did this turn into why the GTX460 is so cheap?

I want more HD6000 series talk!

 

[Silverforce11]

ATI is mass producing the 6K series now with TSMC, at the same 40nm node as the current 5K series. So i think the EOL for the 5K after a few months of 6K release sounds solid. There's really no point in making old stuff when new stuff fits the price range and performs better.

This week there's an expected announcement of a big price drop for the 5800 cards.. so in a fortnight, there should be official 6K series release info.

As per the gtx460 768mb price drop.. nobody wants it, they can't push it in any quantities as they thought. My local IT warehouse has heaps of 768mb cards in stock but few 1gb, that speaks volume.

 

[Dark Shroud]

As per the gtx460 768mb price drop.. nobody wants it, they can't push it in any quantities as they thought. My local IT warehouse has heaps of 768mb cards in stock but few 1gb, that speaks volume.

I think a large part of that has to do with the smaller bus compared to the 1GB. Most forums tell people to pay the extra few bucks and get the 1GB models only.

Imagine if AMD had put out a 5770/5790 with a 256bit bus. We've seen how 5770s scale and how high they OC.

Lastly I'm damn glad I didn't blow a chunk of my PC budget on an HD 5970 with the HD 6870 coming out in a month or two.

 

[bryanW1995]

ATI is mass producing the 6K series now with TSMC, at the same 40nm node as the current 5K series. So i think the EOL for the 5K after a few months of 6K release sounds solid. There's really no point in making old stuff when new stuff fits the price range and performs better.

This week there's an expected announcement of a big price drop for the 5800 cards.. so in a fortnight, there should be official 6K series release info.

As per the gtx460 768mb price drop.. nobody wants it, they can't push it in any quantities as they thought. My local IT warehouse has heaps of 768mb cards in stock but few 1gb, that speaks volume.

I think the 1gb SELLS in volume instead of speaking in it, but that could just be me.

 

[Keysplayr]

ATI is mass producing the 6K series now with TSMC, at the same 40nm node as the current 5K series. So i think the EOL for the 5K after a few months of 6K release sounds solid. There's really no point in making old stuff when new stuff fits the price range and performs better.

This week there's an expected announcement of a big price drop for the 5800 cards.. so in a fortnight, there should be official 6K series release info.

As per the gtx460 768mb price drop.. nobody wants it, they can't push it in any quantities as they thought. My local IT warehouse has heaps of 768mb cards in stock but few 1gb, that speaks volume.

Hey dude. Just in case you missed it, I've asked you a question a few pages back. Here it is again.

"Silverforce, this is great info, but some would like to know the sources you are quoting for reference. Me included. Do you know someone who works at AMD?
Are you a beta tester? That kind of stuff. It doesn't appear you are under any sort of NDA because you're giving the kind of info that normally would be prohibited by said NDA. Just curious. I see others are as well."

-Thanks! If you did see it, and just don't want to answer, that's fine but just let us know you saw it.

-Keys

 

[Grooveriding]

I was thinking it more likely they'd EOL the 58** series. It's not particularly overwhelming against the 460 and would likely not get better against newer nVidia releases as time goes on.

This is probably the case. When the 5XXX series came out, a lot of the 48XX parts dried up really fast. You can still find 4870s and so on, but nowhere near the number of different brands anymore.

How cheap are the 5XXX series parts going to go when these new 6XXX series come out in a couple months ? 5870 is still a really fast card, if they dropped to the sub $300 mark, it would be an amazing deal.

 

[3DVagabond]

This is probably the case. When the 5XXX series came out, a lot of the 48XX parts dried up really fast. You can still find 4870s and so on, but nowhere near the number of different brands anymore.

How cheap are the 5XXX series parts going to go when these new 6XXX series come out in a couple months ? 5870 is still a really fast card, if they dropped to the sub $300 mark, it would be an amazing deal.

There might be parts available for a while. The 6*** doesn't offer a new feature set. The 5*** series won't be "obsolete", by comparison. Price would have to come down though and I'm not too sure how profitable they'd become.

If yields are low on NI(?), and/or 7GHz GDDR5 is real expensive, maybe can't make a dual chip model right away, etc... It might still be worthwhile to continue a couple of the stronger Evergreen SKUs. I hope they can just roll out a complete and competitively priced NI lineup though.

 

[Skurge]

Hey dude. Just in case you missed it, I've asked you a question a few pages back. Here it is again.

"Silverforce, this is great info, but some would like to know the sources you are quoting for reference. Me included. Do you know someone who works at AMD?
Are you a beta tester? That kind of stuff. It doesn't appear you are under any sort of NDA because you're giving the kind of info that normally would be prohibited by said NDA. Just curious. I see others are as well."

-Thanks! If you did see it, and just don't want to answer, that's fine but just let us know you saw it.

-Keys

Yeah, im waiting for that too.

 

[bryanW1995]

well, he's made a prediction of more info to follow next week, will be very easy to see if he's right. more likely he's just read a bunch of articles at SA & BSN and maybe a few forum threads here and at XS. If he had any sort of credentials he'd be extremely anxious to prove to us that he was on the up and up.

 

[tincart]

^
The "market share" numbers that came out a couple weeks back were for units shipped. And AMD was barely ahead. So nV is still moving units.

And this was before 460 was taken into account.

Different issue. DSI calculates based on cost of sales relative to inventory on hand.

Market share and DSI are two different issues. No one wants a huge turnaround time on their stock of inventory. If the problem continues, future quarters will see more write downs, especially considering the downward price pressure that may come from ATi.

High production relative to sales suggests nV anticipated much higher demand and over-produced, thus prices are dropping in order to clear the channel and get the inventory moving again.

 

[MrK6]

This week there's an expected announcement of a big price drop for the 5800 cards.. so in a fortnight, there should be official 6K series release info.

Interesting, I'd like to see how much they drop them (if they do).

well, he's made a prediction of more info to follow next week, will be very easy to see if he's right. more likely he's just read a bunch of articles at SA & BSN and maybe a few forum threads here and at XS. If he had any sort of credentials he'd be extremely anxious to prove to us that he was on the up and up.

No, not at all. If he had any type of credentials at all he wouldn't say a thing about them. It's the peons with a friend of a friend who are the loudmouths about how important they are, and that's in any industry with NDAs.

 

[cliftonite]

Yeah, im waiting for that too.

What difference does it make?

 

[Kenmitch]

No, not at all. If he had any type of credentials at all he wouldn't say a thing about them. It's the peons with a friend of a friend who are the loudmouths about how important they are, and that's in any industry with NDAs.

I agree with this statement 100%

Seems like some members are GREEN with envy 🙂

It's possible that the info in question is coming from the top of the food chain....Not like you would expect the guy to say something like " Look dude I'm on the driver team I know for a fact these statements are true "

Maybe this is the new AMD way of doing biz....Kinda like if you can't beat them join them!

I can see how some members of the Green team would be demanding proof of the statements as they are hoping that it's just hype and viral marketing.

I guess for now it sucks to be nvidia as AMD/ATI looks to be on a roll with no signs of letting up! Good for all of us as only good things will come from it in the end. The tighter they turn the screws on nvidia the better....Sometimes it sucks to be the spoiled rich kid 🙂

 

[*kjm]

what difference does it make?

none🙂

 

[Keysplayr]

MrK6. So you and Kenmitch both fully support a dude just showing up that seems to have VERY detailed information, NDA information and aren't the least bit curious how he came across and just take all this in as gospel?
Well, that's your perogitive, but would you have reacted the same way had Silverforce11 came in here giving out NDA information for Nvidias next line of cards? Would you have received it just as well as you are now and even offer explanations for him?
Dude, you and I both know you'd be breaking out the cattle prods. So what gives?

 

[Janooo]

It seems Oct 12 is the date: http://news.ati-forum.de/index.php/...termin-und-weitere-details-der-hd6000er-serie

We have again information relating to AMD's upcoming graphics card series and can get them in addition to an initial launch date, more details call it.
So shall, according to an anonymous source, the introduction of the new graphics cards on time-series on October 12 this year, AMD plans. This year is no graphics card, however the upper fields first go to the starting line as this makes most times a pixel accelerator from the middle segment the beginning. Thus comes the first of the new series which we have already announced graphics card with the code name "Bart". AMD would so appear to the competition is no air to breathe, give, because that on that day is also planning the presentation of their middle-class nVIDIA graphics card GT430 on GF108 basis.
The following list you will see the new GPUs that graphics chip will replace the previous:

• Caicos: Low-end GPU replaced Cedar/RV810
• Turks: Mid-range GPU replaced Redwood/RV830
• Barts: High-Mid-Range GPU replaced Juniper/RV840
• Cayman: High-end GPU replaced Cypress/RV870
• Antilles: Dual-GPU top-model replaces Hemlock/R800

Furthermore, we could bring in experience that the series HD6000er probably the first to CHL a digital PWM control of the company will have CHIL. Next is the fact that "Bart Pro" in an expensive design comes from the cooler and heat pipes have is about 2x8mm. In addition, "the Chamber Barts XT technology to use" Vapor make in order to keep a cool head.
In addition, there are improvements in the rendering of 3D Blu-Ray, the introduction of UVD3 come with. Connections in the form of HDMI1.4 1.2, and DisplayPort are called.
We'll keep you posted!

 

[cliftonite]

MrK6. So you and Kenmitch both fully support a dude just showing up that seems to have VERY detailed information, NDA information and aren't the least bit curious how he came across and just take all this in as gospel?
Well, that's your perogitive, but would you have reacted the same way had Silverforce11 came in here giving out NDA information for Nvidias next line of cards? Would you have received it just as well as you are now and even offer explanations for him?
Dude, you and I both know you'd be breaking out the cattle prods. So what gives?

Nope wouldn't give a shit either way. We don't even know if his info is accurate or if he is FOS.

 

[bryanW1995]

MrK6. So you and Kenmitch both fully support a dude just showing up that seems to have VERY detailed information, NDA information and aren't the least bit curious how he came across and just take all this in as gospel?
Well, that's your perogitive, but would you have reacted the same way had Silverforce11 came in here giving out NDA information for Nvidias next line of cards? Would you have received it just as well as you are now and even offer explanations for him?
Dude, you and I both know you'd be breaking out the cattle prods. So what gives?

2 likely explanations:
1. as I mentioned earlier, he's a fraud.
2. a deliberate leak by amd gpu marketing. This would be counter to their usual ineptness, perhaps they have upgraded the staff.

I am actually leaning slightly towards #2 at this point, but as mentioned earlier we'll see soon enough. if his info is legit then hopefully we'll see more from him in the future.

edit: we'll know it's true when charlie starts quoting him... 😉

 

[Keysplayr]

Well yeah. That's kind of why some of us are asking for data sources. But we are being ignored. Without data sources, reliable ones at that, this is all quite a lot of nothing.