Discussion Leading Edge Foundry Node advances (TSMC, Samsung Foundry, Intel) - [2020 - 2025]

[DisEnchantment]

TSMC's N7 EUV is now in its second year of production and N5 is contributing to revenue for TSMC this quarter. N3 is scheduled for 2022 and I believe they have a good chance to reach that target.


N7 performance is more or less understood.


This year and next year TSMC is mainly increasing capacity to meet demands.

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For Samsung the nodes are basically the same from 7LPP to 4 LPE, they just add incremental scaling boosters while the bulk of the tech is the same.

Samsung is already shipping 7LPP and will ship 6LPP in H2. Hopefully they fix any issues if at all.
They have two more intermediate nodes in between before going to 3GAE, most likely 5LPE will ship next year but for 4LPE it will probably be back to back with 3GAA since 3GAA is a parallel development with 7LPP enhancements.

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Samsung's 3GAA will go for HVM in 2022 most likely, similar timeframe to TSMC's N3.
There are major differences in how the transistor will be fabricated due to the GAA but density for sure Samsung will be behind N3.
But there might be advantages for Samsung with regards to power and performance, so it may be better suited for some applications.
But for now we don't know how much of this is true and we can only rely on the marketing material.

This year there should be a lot more available wafers due to lack of demand from Smartphone vendors and increased capacity from TSMC and Samsung.
Lots of SoCs which dont need to be top end will be fabbed with N7 or 7LPP/6LPP instead of N5, so there will be lots of wafers around.

Most of the current 7nm designs are far from the advertized density from TSMC and Samsung. There is still potential for density increase compared to currently shipping products.
N5 is going to be the leading foundry node for the next couple of years.

For a lot of fabless companies out there, the processes and capacity available are quite good.

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FEEL FREE TO CREATE A NEW THREAD FOR 2025+ OUTLOOK, I WILL LINK IT HERE

 

[DrMrLordX]

Power10 was built on Samsung 7LPE. Power11 stays on 7nm (based on feedback from clients), so there was a focus on speed instead of density. As a result, it’s built on a newer iteration of Samsung’s 7nm technology.

That is uh

that's certainly something. It's sad that they aren't even trying any more-recent node families from Samsung, not even a variant of 4LPP/SF4P?

 

[511]

What was the die size ?

 

[Josh128]

That is uh

that's certainly something. It's sad that they aren't even trying any more-recent node families from Samsung, not even a variant of 4LPP/SF4P?

Is Samsung 7 another refinement of Samsung 8, or is it actually an N7 equivalent node??

 

[511]

Is Samsung 7 another refinement of Samsung 8, or is it actually an N7 equivalent node??

7 nm process - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

looks like a 7nm class processor 8nm is 10nm refinement

 

[marees]

7 nm process - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

looks like a 7nm class processor 8nm is 10nm refinement

AFAIK every number above 4 derives from 8 which in turn might derive from something like 12.

Edit: Samsung 8nm seems to from 10nm
Samsung's 8nm Low Power Plus (8LPP) was put into production in Q4 2018. As an optimized version of the 10nm process, it uses DUV multiple patterning technology.

Why Are They All Targeting the 12nm Process?

Semiconductor Industry Watch: Why the 12 - nanometer process node, mass - produced a decade ago, has become the focus of the current chip industry?

eu.36kr.com

7, 6, 5, etc are all refinements of 8nm to the best of my knowledge

 

[jpiniero]

It'd be nice if the Switch 2 used SF7...

 

[Josh128]

7, 6, 5, etc are all refinements of 8nm to the best of my knowledge

This is what I was thinking. In other words, its cheap commodity shat. Good for IBM Power series, I guess. What are the PowerPC CPUs even used in these days?

 

[511]

AFAIK every number above 4 derives from 8 which in turn might derive from something like 12.

not really everything became haywire after TSMC Jumped to 12nm which was pure marketing as TSMC 12nm still lags behind Intel 14nm. Than TSMC and Samsung jumped to 10nm which was actually better than 14nm from Intel Samsung made another marketing 8nm(10nm++) .

7, 6, 5, etc are all refinements of 8nm to the best of my knowledge

6nm is a 7nm refinement and than 5nm is an actual shrink 4nm is a refinement of 5nm

 

[marees]

It'd be nice if the Switch 2 used SF7...

Eventually they'll revise it down upto 5

4nm is out of question I believe

 

[511]

This is what I was thinking. In other words, its cheap commodity shat. Good for IBM Power series, I guess. What are the PowerPC CPUs even used in these days?

keeping legacy infra cause banks and many agencies don't want a hassle they would pay a premium to not have the hassle of writing software again.

 

[Josh128]

Detail on SF7. Seems its first Sammy node to utilize EUV for less mask requirements, but also touts a 40% density increase, apparently compared to 8nm?? So maybe it can be considered a full node from 8nm.

 

[marees]

5nm is an actual shrink

But still 5nm designs are compatible with 7nm

it will be largely design-rule compatible with the existing design of 7nm. Therefore, it is essentially a recharacterization of the technology, not redesign

https://news.samsung.com/global/editorial-5nm-a-catalyst-of-the-fourth-industrial-revolution-and-what-it-means-for-semiconductor-innovations

 

[511]

No wonder Intel is such abad state financially

https://twitter.com/x/status/1960350574127546614

 

[MoistOintment]

This is what I was thinking. In other words, its cheap commodity shat. Good for IBM Power series, I guess. What are the PowerPC CPUs even used in these days?

IBM Power Systems.

I just installed a new one in our datacenter earlier this year. We use it for our ERP system. Pros are that there's basically no risk from malware because the OS / System is so unique and relatively obscure, there's nothing really out there. Downside is that because it's pretty unique and obscure, our dev team has to work with consultants to basically create integrations into other systems we use rather than using something more standard like SAP.

They're still pretty obscure.

 

[511]

IBM Power Systems.

I just installed a new one in our datacenter earlier this year. We use it for our ERP system. Pros are that there's basically no risk from malware because the OS / System is so unique and relatively obscure, there's nothing really out there. Downside is that because it's pretty unique and obscure, our dev team has to work with consultants to basically create integrations into other systems we use rather than using something more standard like SAP.

They're still pretty obscure.

Basically instead of cyber security professional you now have consultancy professional.

 

[Win2012R2]

I just installed a new one in our datacenter earlier this year.

Do you get Patch Tuesdays?

 

[DavidC1]

No wonder Intel is such abad state financially

https://twitter.com/x/status/1960350574127546614

Actually that part is a bit misleading as they were TSMC's top 5 customers for ever. At one point they were top 3. Nvidia and AMD overtaking them is a fairly recent thing, like less than 10 years. That's part of what IDM 2.0 is trying to change, because everything other than bleeding edge nodes were basically TSMC.

The problem is now even bleeding edge is no longer Intel.

 

[Doug S]

Samsung 7nm is cheap very cheap no wonder it was made their lol.

Samsung is IBM's research partner in their Albany labs, developing new transistor types like VTFET (similar to CFET) so there probably is some IBM flavoring in Samsung's processes. And maybe some contractual commitments to use them.

Given the size of IBM's chips and the problems Samsung had moving past 7nm it makes sense why IBM would want to stay away from Samsung's newer processes. If rumors are correct and they're getting themselves back on track with their 2nm process we might see POWER and Z take a big process jump in their next iteration.

 

[Josh128]

I guess it was common knowledge MI350/355X used N3P for compute? I must have missed that, thinking it was N4P. Does GB200 use N3P as well??

 

[Joe NYC]

I guess it was common knowledge MI350/355X used N3P for compute? I must have missed that, thinking it was N4P. Does GB200 use N3P as well??


View attachment 129289

Blackwell uses N4. And yes, Mi350 is using N3P

Next Gen, Rubin will use N3P and Mi400 will use N2 (or N2P)

 

[511]

Actually that part is a bit misleading as they were TSMC's top 5 customers for ever. At one point they were top 3. Nvidia and AMD overtaking them is a fairly recent thing, like less than 10 years. That's part of what IDM 2.0 is trying to change, because everything other than bleeding edge nodes were basically TSMC.

The problem is now even bleeding edge is no longer Intel.

They were yes but they could afford to back then not now if they want to continue IFS every wafer made at TSMC means volume lost at IFS.

 

[511]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1960058405223014430

At this point the PR team should be fired lmfao

 

[Thibsie]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1960058405223014430

At this point the PR team should be fired lmfao

Maybe already has, that's why

 

[coercitiv]

At this point the PR team should be fired lmfao

Company acts surprised pikachu that after almost a decade of lying about their manufacturing progress... people won't believe them even when telling the truth. We used to teach kids about this, read them fables about boys and wolves.

 

[johnsonwax]

Company acts surprised pikachu that after almost a decade of lying about their manufacturing progress... people won't believe them even when telling the truth. We used to teach kids about this, read them fables about boys and wolves.

Right, but boy howdy did those shareholders get their value increased during that decade, so mission accomplished.