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manowar821

Diamond Member
Mar 1, 2007
6,063
0
0
Originally posted by: RichardE
Originally posted by: thraashman
I refused to stand for the pledge in a class senior year. I never stood, but for some reason this day it was said during a different period so I had a different teacher. He told me to stand, I said no. He told me it's a sign of respect and that I had to, I said I wouldn't. He asked why, I said that because I'm an atheist and the pledge comments on "one nation, under god" that it offends me. It disrespects my religion by indicating that I'm not a member of this nation because I hold myself to be under no god. And if the pledge would not respect me I would not respect it and would remain seated.

He kicked me out of the class. When he came out a minute later I said that if I was ever in his classroom for the pledge that I'd gladly leave before it started so that I could be sitting down in the hallway rather than stand for a pledge that clearly shows a disrespect for my beliefs.
Good job sticking it to the man. Its ok though, disrespect the country that gives you the option of religious freedom.
*SLAP*

I just slapped an "ASS" sticker on your forehead. Freedom of religion also means freedom from it, and nationalism is a religion, so the pledge is a double whammy.
 

Rio Rebel

Administrator Emeritus<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
5,194
0
0
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: RichardE
Originally posted by: thraashman
I refused to stand for the pledge in a class senior year. I never stood, but for some reason this day it was said during a different period so I had a different teacher. He told me to stand, I said no. He told me it's a sign of respect and that I had to, I said I wouldn't. He asked why, I said that because I'm an atheist and the pledge comments on "one nation, under god" that it offends me. It disrespects my religion by indicating that I'm not a member of this nation because I hold myself to be under no god. And if the pledge would not respect me I would not respect it and would remain seated.

He kicked me out of the class. When he came out a minute later I said that if I was ever in his classroom for the pledge that I'd gladly leave before it started so that I could be sitting down in the hallway rather than stand for a pledge that clearly shows a disrespect for my beliefs.
Good job sticking it to the man. Its ok though, disrespect the country that gives you the option of religious freedom.
Haha awesome.

THIS COUNTRY GAVE YOU RELIGIOUS FREEDOM, HOW DARE YOU USE IT.
Good point. The same people who crow about the US being a "free country" are the ones who want to silence anyone who exercises any of those freedoms.
 

RichardE

Banned
Dec 31, 2005
10,246
2
0
Originally posted by: Rio Rebel
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: RichardE
Originally posted by: thraashman
I refused to stand for the pledge in a class senior year. I never stood, but for some reason this day it was said during a different period so I had a different teacher. He told me to stand, I said no. He told me it's a sign of respect and that I had to, I said I wouldn't. He asked why, I said that because I'm an atheist and the pledge comments on "one nation, under god" that it offends me. It disrespects my religion by indicating that I'm not a member of this nation because I hold myself to be under no god. And if the pledge would not respect me I would not respect it and would remain seated.

He kicked me out of the class. When he came out a minute later I said that if I was ever in his classroom for the pledge that I'd gladly leave before it started so that I could be sitting down in the hallway rather than stand for a pledge that clearly shows a disrespect for my beliefs.
Good job sticking it to the man. Its ok though, disrespect the country that gives you the option of religious freedom.
Haha awesome.

THIS COUNTRY GAVE YOU RELIGIOUS FREEDOM, HOW DARE YOU USE IT.
Good point. The same people who crow about the US being a "free country" are the ones who want to silence anyone who exercises any of those freedoms.
Did I try to say not too? Did I say anything about it not being allowed? You three posters are the same type of kids who jump all over the "omg its my freedom of (insert crap here) to do this!" No where did I say I say it was wrong to use it, as Eskimopsy decided I said, nor was I an ass as manowar said, and no where did I say it was not allowed to be used, and no where did I silence or try silence anyone as Rio suggested. You people just jumped over something for no reason and it did nothing but prove my point that the US is up and arms over perceived freedom of religion and freedom of w/e over small trivial things.

I said good job disrespecting the country that gave you the right to freedom of religion. At the end of the day yes, it is your right to express your religion anyway you want, it does not mean that in doing so you did not disrespect your country. Enjoy your right to the full extent, just know that you disrespect your country when you do it in that way.
 

RightIsWrong

Diamond Member
Apr 29, 2005
5,649
0
0
You have it backwards RichardE.....

I think that it is being more respectful actually. What good are freedoms if you aren't exercising them. Having the freedom of religion but being pressured by someone or a group of people to never, ever use that freedom is what is disrespectful to the country that affords that freedom.
 

RichardE

Banned
Dec 31, 2005
10,246
2
0
Originally posted by: RightIsWrong
You have it backwards RichardE.....

I think that it is being more respectful actually. What good are freedoms if you aren't exercising them. Having the freedom of religion but being pressured by someone or a group of people to never, ever use that freedom is what is disrespectful to the country that affords that freedom.
There is no pressure, and even if there is, it falls under freedom of speech. As someone who wants to excersize there freedoms it is pretty hypocritical to call for an end to an opinion regarding the use of yours is it not?
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
9
81
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: Lemon law
It does not matter. Red State, blue state, red school district, or blue school district, some school administrators need get their ass fired or their pants sued off of them. They are total idiots.
I agree, but if some dumbass is going to make it a partisan argument, they should pop their head out of their ass and try to know what they're talking about.
Heh, look who's calling who a dumbass. Just because MN is a "blue state" doesn't mean every single person in the entire state is a Democrat. And while this is by no means a reflection on every Republican, the people who tend to get all turbo-charged about symbols of patriotism do tend to be conservatives and/or Republicans.

Minnesota didn't do anything, some person running the school did...and I hope you're not really suggesting that because they live in MN, that person HAS to be a Democrat.
I have no idea what that idiot what was thinking when he made it a Republican issue. I guess we'd have to as him. BoomerD, why are you such a moron?
 

wirelessenabled

Platinum Member
Feb 5, 2001
2,190
41
91
Originally posted by: RightIsWrong


"These three [students] didn't, and they got caught," said Mel Olson, the district's community education director. He said he backs the punishment, "being a veteran and a United States of America citizen, absolutely." Olson served in the Marines in Japan during the Vietnam War.
[/quote]


I like the part about how this super-patriot Olson served in Japan during the Vietnam War, albeit in the Marines. Guess working a job thousands of miles from combat gives Olson some sort of moral authority:lips:
 

Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
41,599
17
81
Why is it not enough to pledge allegiance to the flag once, and be done with it? Is each pledging valid for only 24hrs? How about on weekends? If I don't say the Pledge on weekends, does that mean I'm free to do "treasonous" things without risking the death sentence, only because I never gave my allegiance to the flag for those two days?

Someone I know became a citizen recently, and she had to pledge her allegiance to our flag - once. I doubt that there was anything for her to sign that said she had to do it each day.

The other amusing thing about the pledge was that, throughout school, I never thought about what it said. It wasn't until high school, when we no longer said it in the mornings, that I actually thought about what the words meant.
In grade school, I said it because the teacher said to do it. (Though I'd always remain silent during the "under God" portion of it. :)) She never said, "Think about what these words mean." It was just one of those grown-up things that we all needed to do before we could get started on the day's lessons, kind of like putting on shoes and brushing teeth. Just one of those things to do.



Silly, stupid people with nothing better to obsess over.
"OMG Look at mee!!!!!! Look how patriotic I am!!!! I'm illegally punishing kids for not saying something that they probably don't even think about! Can I has more government brownie points, plz?"
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
72,151
22,741
136
Originally posted by: RichardE
Originally posted by: Rio Rebel
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: RichardE
Originally posted by: thraashman
I refused to stand for the pledge in a class senior year. I never stood, but for some reason this day it was said during a different period so I had a different teacher. He told me to stand, I said no. He told me it's a sign of respect and that I had to, I said I wouldn't. He asked why, I said that because I'm an atheist and the pledge comments on "one nation, under god" that it offends me. It disrespects my religion by indicating that I'm not a member of this nation because I hold myself to be under no god. And if the pledge would not respect me I would not respect it and would remain seated.

He kicked me out of the class. When he came out a minute later I said that if I was ever in his classroom for the pledge that I'd gladly leave before it started so that I could be sitting down in the hallway rather than stand for a pledge that clearly shows a disrespect for my beliefs.
Good job sticking it to the man. Its ok though, disrespect the country that gives you the option of religious freedom.
Haha awesome.

THIS COUNTRY GAVE YOU RELIGIOUS FREEDOM, HOW DARE YOU USE IT.
Good point. The same people who crow about the US being a "free country" are the ones who want to silence anyone who exercises any of those freedoms.
Did I try to say not too? Did I say anything about it not being allowed? You three posters are the same type of kids who jump all over the "omg its my freedom of (insert crap here) to do this!" No where did I say I say it was wrong to use it, as Eskimopsy decided I said, nor was I an ass as manowar said, and no where did I say it was not allowed to be used, and no where did I silence or try silence anyone as Rio suggested. You people just jumped over something for no reason and it did nothing but prove my point that the US is up and arms over perceived freedom of religion and freedom of w/e over small trivial things.

I said good job disrespecting the country that gave you the right to freedom of religion. At the end of the day yes, it is your right to express your religion anyway you want, it does not mean that in doing so you did not disrespect your country. Enjoy your right to the full extent, just know that you disrespect your country when you do it in that way.
I never made the claim that you said it was 'wrong' of him to use it. I just thought it was funny you were disparaging him for exercising the same rights you just mentioned. Oh, and I'm not a kid.
 

RichardE

Banned
Dec 31, 2005
10,246
2
0
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: RichardE
Originally posted by: Rio Rebel
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: RichardE
Originally posted by: thraashman
I refused to stand for the pledge in a class senior year. I never stood, but for some reason this day it was said during a different period so I had a different teacher. He told me to stand, I said no. He told me it's a sign of respect and that I had to, I said I wouldn't. He asked why, I said that because I'm an atheist and the pledge comments on "one nation, under god" that it offends me. It disrespects my religion by indicating that I'm not a member of this nation because I hold myself to be under no god. And if the pledge would not respect me I would not respect it and would remain seated.

He kicked me out of the class. When he came out a minute later I said that if I was ever in his classroom for the pledge that I'd gladly leave before it started so that I could be sitting down in the hallway rather than stand for a pledge that clearly shows a disrespect for my beliefs.
Good job sticking it to the man. Its ok though, disrespect the country that gives you the option of religious freedom.
Haha awesome.

THIS COUNTRY GAVE YOU RELIGIOUS FREEDOM, HOW DARE YOU USE IT.
Good point. The same people who crow about the US being a "free country" are the ones who want to silence anyone who exercises any of those freedoms.
Did I try to say not too? Did I say anything about it not being allowed? You three posters are the same type of kids who jump all over the "omg its my freedom of (insert crap here) to do this!" No where did I say I say it was wrong to use it, as Eskimopsy decided I said, nor was I an ass as manowar said, and no where did I say it was not allowed to be used, and no where did I silence or try silence anyone as Rio suggested. You people just jumped over something for no reason and it did nothing but prove my point that the US is up and arms over perceived freedom of religion and freedom of w/e over small trivial things.

I said good job disrespecting the country that gave you the right to freedom of religion. At the end of the day yes, it is your right to express your religion anyway you want, it does not mean that in doing so you did not disrespect your country. Enjoy your right to the full extent, just know that you disrespect your country when you do it in that way.
I never made the claim that you said it was 'wrong' of him to use it. I just thought it was funny you were disparaging him for exercising the same rights you just mentioned. Oh, and I'm not a kid.
I didn't say you were a kid. Reading comprehension isn't a base skill of your is it? Thats twice now. As well I didn't really belittle him for his words, just stated an observation that he was disrespecting a nation by exercising his right, which he is.
 

jonks

Lifer
Feb 7, 2005
13,918
18
81
Originally posted by: RichardE
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: RichardE
Originally posted by: Rio Rebel
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: RichardE
Originally posted by: thraashman
I refused to stand for the pledge in a class senior year. I never stood, but for some reason this day it was said during a different period so I had a different teacher. He told me to stand, I said no. He told me it's a sign of respect and that I had to, I said I wouldn't. He asked why, I said that because I'm an atheist and the pledge comments on "one nation, under god" that it offends me. It disrespects my religion by indicating that I'm not a member of this nation because I hold myself to be under no god. And if the pledge would not respect me I would not respect it and would remain seated.

He kicked me out of the class. When he came out a minute later I said that if I was ever in his classroom for the pledge that I'd gladly leave before it started so that I could be sitting down in the hallway rather than stand for a pledge that clearly shows a disrespect for my beliefs.
Good job sticking it to the man. Its ok though, disrespect the country that gives you the option of religious freedom.
Haha awesome.

THIS COUNTRY GAVE YOU RELIGIOUS FREEDOM, HOW DARE YOU USE IT.
Good point. The same people who crow about the US being a "free country" are the ones who want to silence anyone who exercises any of those freedoms.
Did I try to say not too? Did I say anything about it not being allowed? You three posters are the same type of kids who jump all over the "omg its my freedom of (insert crap here) to do this!" No where did I say I say it was wrong to use it, as Eskimopsy decided I said, nor was I an ass as manowar said, and no where did I say it was not allowed to be used, and no where did I silence or try silence anyone as Rio suggested. You people just jumped over something for no reason and it did nothing but prove my point that the US is up and arms over perceived freedom of religion and freedom of w/e over small trivial things.

I said good job disrespecting the country that gave you the right to freedom of religion. At the end of the day yes, it is your right to express your religion anyway you want, it does not mean that in doing so you did not disrespect your country. Enjoy your right to the full extent, just know that you disrespect your country when you do it in that way.
I never made the claim that you said it was 'wrong' of him to use it. I just thought it was funny you were disparaging him for exercising the same rights you just mentioned. Oh, and I'm not a kid.
I didn't say you were a kid. Reading comprehension isn't a base skill of your is it? Thats twice now. As well I didn't really belittle him for his words, just stated an observation that he was disrespecting a nation by exercising his right, which he is.
Sorry, have to jump in here. Are you being deliberately obtuse?

If the pledge read "...one nation, subservient to no deity since they don't exist, indivisible..." and every religious person refused to recite it, they'd be disrespecting the country?

I do note that it is possible to disrespect the country while using the rights it affords you. For example, Fred Phelps is pretty much a national disgrace (claiming US soldiers deserve death and we deserve 9/11 b/c we tolerate gays) while being protected by the first amendment. Your application here however is completely off base.
 
Jun 19, 2004
24,135
1,592
126
I love these stories that hinge on minors student rights. Minor students have the right not to be abused, exploited or forced to commit criminal acts period. Minors do not have the "rights" that adult members of society have. Neither do they have the same privileges.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: MagnusTheBrewer
I love these stories that hinge on minors student rights. Minor students have the right not to be abused, exploited or forced to commit criminal acts period. Minors do not have the "rights" that adult members of society have. Neither do they have the same privileges.
They might not have all the same rights, but there is no basis for your suggestion that they have the very limited rights you suggest either. In fact, decades of case law suggest you're full of crap, and that minors have extensive free speech rights that would make forced recitation of the pledge a violation of their civil liberties.
 
Jun 26, 2007
11,925
2
0
Originally posted by: RichardE
Originally posted by: thraashman
I refused to stand for the pledge in a class senior year. I never stood, but for some reason this day it was said during a different period so I had a different teacher. He told me to stand, I said no. He told me it's a sign of respect and that I had to, I said I wouldn't. He asked why, I said that because I'm an atheist and the pledge comments on "one nation, under god" that it offends me. It disrespects my religion by indicating that I'm not a member of this nation because I hold myself to be under no god. And if the pledge would not respect me I would not respect it and would remain seated.

He kicked me out of the class. When he came out a minute later I said that if I was ever in his classroom for the pledge that I'd gladly leave before it started so that I could be sitting down in the hallway rather than stand for a pledge that clearly shows a disrespect for my beliefs.
Good job sticking it to the man. Its ok though, disrespect the country that gives you the option of religious freedom.
Freedoms aren't worth anything if you don't use them, what you are saying is that people should be grateful for freedoms and never use them.

I'm going to respect and disrespect whoever and whatever i choose because i am free to do so.

Son, go sit in the corner and shut the fuck up now because this is pathetic.
 

cwjerome

Diamond Member
Sep 30, 2004
4,293
0
76
Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
Son, go sit in the corner and shut the fuck up now because this is pathetic.
Just a cursory skim of P&N lately leads me to believe you suffer from PTSD or something. Go home. Seek help. Get better.
 

spittledip

Diamond Member
Apr 23, 2005
4,480
1
81
I don't see the big deal with slapping the kids with a punishment for breaking school rules. All they had to do was stand. they didn't even have to say the pledge itself.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
72,151
22,741
136
Originally posted by: RichardE
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: RichardE

Did I try to say not too? Did I say anything about it not being allowed? You three posters are the same type of kids who jump all over the "omg its my freedom of (insert crap here) to do this!" No where did I say I say it was wrong to use it, as Eskimopsy decided I said, nor was I an ass as manowar said, and no where did I say it was not allowed to be used, and no where did I silence or try silence anyone as Rio suggested. You people just jumped over something for no reason and it did nothing but prove my point that the US is up and arms over perceived freedom of religion and freedom of w/e over small trivial things.

I said good job disrespecting the country that gave you the right to freedom of religion. At the end of the day yes, it is your right to express your religion anyway you want, it does not mean that in doing so you did not disrespect your country. Enjoy your right to the full extent, just know that you disrespect your country when you do it in that way.
I never made the claim that you said it was 'wrong' of him to use it. I just thought it was funny you were disparaging him for exercising the same rights you just mentioned. Oh, and I'm not a kid.
I didn't say you were a kid. Reading comprehension isn't a base skill of your is it? Thats twice now. As well I didn't really belittle him for his words, just stated an observation that he was disrespecting a nation by exercising his right, which he is.
Quick tip for you, before insulting someone else's English skills you might want to make sure you've got at least the small stuff down. When you say "You three posters are the same type of kids...", that means you are calling us kids. This is basic English.

In addition, no normal person would read your post and come away with the impression that you were making anything else but a negative comment towards the kid. If that was not your intent then your post represents a massive failure to communicate and you should take more care in the future. I will admit this is possible considering your somewhat lackluster command of English as you've already shown, but lets be honest here. You meant it in a disparaging way and you know it.
 

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
18,191
1
0
I hope they suspend the suspender


The beautiful thing about America is that you don't have to stand
you don't have to pray
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,631
3,126
126
Originally posted by: PokerGuy
Originally posted by: Skoorb
Originally posted by: PokerGuy
I suspect some school administrators are about to get smacked around in a suit unless they talk to their legal councel and come to their senses.
This is public school, where the school owns the kids, not the other way around.
Indeed, the courts have frequently ruled that students right to free expression etc can be curtailed as part of the schooling process, but in this case there are specific laws that make punishing someone for not participating in pledging allegiance. The school would have a very very difficult task to show that it somehow is outside the scope of those laws.
you don`t get it do you?

The kids were punished for not standing during the pledge....
Not for not participating....duh
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
10,038
36
86
Why can't these kids stand during the pledge and just not recite it if they don't want to?

Is it so meaningful to them not to stand in the school people died to provide them that it's worth the slap in the face to the living that have layed it on the line so they can sit on their wannabe 'what I want to do overrides anything else mentality' @sses and think they're relevent in any way???

If I was in Iran/China/N.Korea and they stood and receited whatever national pledge/song/whatever, even then I wouldn't have the complete lack of tact to not stand out of respect for being a guest in their midst.

Students and Parents need to start getting a F'ing clue that they don't own the schools, teachers, or adminstrations...and as such, don't set the rules: They are guests and should be acting accordingly.

These kids shouldn't have been given a one day suspension however...that was wrong. They should have been given a 1 month work/study and been assigned to the VA hospital. Maybe they'd appreciate the vets a little more than F it, I'll sit on my @ss because I'm more important than anything else around me.

Un F'ing Believable.

Chuck
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
34,964
4,979
126
Originally posted by: chucky2
Why can't these kids stand during the pledge and just not recite it if they don't want to?

Is it so meaningful to them not to stand in the school people died to provide them that it's worth the slap in the face to the living that have layed it on the line so they can sit on their wannabe 'what I want to do overrides anything else mentality' @sses and think they're relevent in any way???
People died so that we don't have to pledge allegiance to a state, and don't have to stand while that is done. That's called individual liberty.
If I was in Iran/China/N.Korea and they stood and receited whatever national pledge/song/whatever, even then I wouldn't have the complete lack of tact to not stand out of respect for being a guest in their midst.

Students and Parents need to start getting a F'ing clue that they don't own the schools, teachers, or adminstrations...and as such, don't set the rules: They are guests and should be acting accordingly.
The parents (taxpayers) are not the guests, they are the owners of the schools. Schools and teachers should act accordingly, and in full compliance with the law of the land.
These kids shouldn't have been given a one day suspension however...that was wrong. They should have been given a 1 month work/study and been assigned to the VA hospital. Maybe they'd appreciate the vets a little more than F it, I'll sit on my @ss because I'm more important than anything else around me.

Un F'ing Believable.

Chuck
Un F'ing Believable indeed.
I am sure these veterans would be delighted to learn that they sacrificed so that the government can force students to stand in acknowledgment of allegiance to the state and a deity that they may not even believe in.
 

lupi

Lifer
Apr 8, 2001
32,539
260
126
They can tell you what clothes to wear, when to be silent, telling them to stand doesn't seem that far from their allowed powers.
 

FuzzyBee

Diamond Member
Jan 22, 2000
5,172
1
76
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: MagnusTheBrewer
I love these stories that hinge on minors student rights. Minor students have the right not to be abused, exploited or forced to commit criminal acts period. Minors do not have the "rights" that adult members of society have. Neither do they have the same privileges.
They might not have all the same rights, but there is no basis for your suggestion that they have the very limited rights you suggest either. In fact, decades of case law suggest you're full of crap, and that minors have extensive free speech rights that would make forced recitation of the pledge a violation of their civil liberties.
Who said anything about a forced recitiation?

The school's handbook says all students are required to stand but are not obligated to recite the pledge.
 

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