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Laws? We don't need to follow no stinking laws!!

RightIsWrong

Diamond Member
Apr 29, 2005
5,650
0
0
I still can't believe that, in this day and age, there are still people that are ignorant of the laws that dictate what they are and are not allowed to do with regards to their profession.

Three small-town eighth-graders were suspended for not standing at the start of the school day Thursday for the Pledge of Allegiance.

"My son wasn't being defiant against America," said Kim Dahl, mother of one of the students, Brandt, who attends Dilworth-Glyndon-Felton Junior High School in western Minnesota. She said her son offered no reason for sitting.

Brandt told the Fargo Forum that Thursday's one-day in-school suspension, "was kind of dumb because I didn't do anything wrong. It should be the people's choice."

Kim Dahl said the "punishment didn't fit the crime. If they wanted to know why he didn't stand, they should've made him write a paper."

She said that Brandt has not been standing all year, and "all of a sudden it became an in-school suspension."

The district today is defending the punishments. The school's handbook says all students are required to stand but are not obligated to recite the pledge. The same is true for all four schools in the district, a school official said.

"These three [students] didn't, and they got caught," said Mel Olson, the district's community education director. He said he backs the punishment, "being a veteran and a United States of America citizen, absolutely." Olson served in the Marines in Japan during the Vietnam War.


The head of the Minnesota American Civil Liberties Union said that the school's actions against the students are unconstitutional.

"The school can't do that; that's illegal," said Chuck Samuelson, the civil liberties group's executive director. "Wow."

Samuelson said that numerous U.S. Supreme Court rulings dating to the 1940s say that "students who refuse to participate in the pledge cannot be punished for refusing to participate."


Samuelson said he's surprised that any public school district would have such a pledge requirement. In St. Paul, said district spokesman Howie Padilla, "Students can respectfully not participate in the Pledge of Allegiance."

Olson said this morning that a "very nice announcement" was made at the start of the junior high's school today reminding the students that they must stand for the pledge.

Principal Colleen Houglum said that all students this morning were "involved in some fashion" during the pledge, adding that no additional suspensions were needed.

"Our social studies teacher led the pledge, and that was kind of a nice change of pace," Houglum said.

Kim Dahl asked Brandt why he has remained seated all school year, but "he didn't have an answer ... he doesn't get in trouble; he's just a normal 13-year-old."

As for today, she told Brandt to take his cell phone with him to school and text her should he run into trouble again.

"I said you should probably just stand if you're not protesting something."
 

KB

Diamond Member
Nov 8, 1999
5,143
197
106
Does that mean someone in a wheelchair would have to stand too or be suspended?

Frankly I blame the hippies for all of the problems with our schools.
 

jpeyton

Moderator in SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones
Moderator
Aug 23, 2003
25,387
140
116
The pledge of allegiance is stupid. Much like flag-pins and magnetic yellow ribbons.
 

idiotekniQues

Platinum Member
Jan 4, 2007
2,574
0
71
i certainly hope the entire school staff was wearing the flap lapel pins, or they should all be thrown in jail
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,214
2
0
Public schools our often overstepping their bounds. Teachers and administrators don't really hold close to heart the servant part of civil servant and prefer to overbear their beliefs in a system that easily caters to it, the repercussions of stupidity for them being grossly diminished by unions and their monopolization of education.
 

jonks

Lifer
Feb 7, 2005
13,926
18
81
Originally posted by: BoomerD
Originally posted by: KB


Frankly I blame the republicans for all of the problems with our schools.
Fixed
Given the wheelchair comment I was detecting high concentrations of sarcasm, though maybe my meter is broken
 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,137
1
0
What's next? Mandatory loyalty oaths in middle school? Pffft, gimme a break. Beyond the district's selective enforcement issues, I don't think you can compel someone to stand for any sort of pledge.
 

PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
13,652
199
101
I suspect some school administrators are about to get smacked around in a suit unless they talk to their legal councel and come to their senses.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,214
2
0
Originally posted by: PokerGuy
I suspect some school administrators are about to get smacked around in a suit unless they talk to their legal councel and come to their senses.
This is public school, where the school owns the kids, not the other way around.
 

ranmaniac

Golden Member
May 14, 2001
1,940
0
76
From Wiki:

Before World War II, the Pledge would begin with the right hand over the heart during the phrase "I pledge allegiance". The arm was then extended toward the Flag at the phrase "to the Flag", and it remained outstretched during the rest of the pledge, with the palm facing upward, as if to lift the flag.

An early version of the salute, adopted in 1892, was known as the Bellamy salute. It also ended with the arm outstretched and the palm upwards, but began with the right hand outstretched, palm facing downward. However, during World War II the outstretched arm became identified with Nazism and Fascism, and the custom was changed: today the Pledge is said from beginning to end with the right hand over the heart.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance


 

thraashman

Lifer
Apr 10, 2000
10,909
1,057
126
I refused to stand for the pledge in a class senior year. I never stood, but for some reason this day it was said during a different period so I had a different teacher. He told me to stand, I said no. He told me it's a sign of respect and that I had to, I said I wouldn't. He asked why, I said that because I'm an atheist and the pledge comments on "one nation, under god" that it offends me. It disrespects my religion by indicating that I'm not a member of this nation because I hold myself to be under no god. And if the pledge would not respect me I would not respect it and would remain seated.

He kicked me out of the class. When he came out a minute later I said that if I was ever in his classroom for the pledge that I'd gladly leave before it started so that I could be sitting down in the hallway rather than stand for a pledge that clearly shows a disrespect for my beliefs.
 

PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
13,652
199
101
Originally posted by: Skoorb
Originally posted by: PokerGuy
I suspect some school administrators are about to get smacked around in a suit unless they talk to their legal councel and come to their senses.
This is public school, where the school owns the kids, not the other way around.
Indeed, the courts have frequently ruled that students right to free expression etc can be curtailed as part of the schooling process, but in this case there are specific laws that make punishing someone for not participating in pledging allegiance. The school would have a very very difficult task to show that it somehow is outside the scope of those laws.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,991
2
0
It does not matter. Red State, blue state, red school district, or blue school district, some school administrators need get their ass fired or their pants sued off of them. They are total idiots.
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,414
0
0
There needs to be a $1 billion punitive damage in this case to end these things once and for all. Something severe needs to happen.
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
23,003
770
126
Originally posted by: idiotekniQues
i certainly hope the entire school staff was wearing the flap lapel pins, or they should all be thrown in jail
People who don't wear flag lapel pins and stand up and recite things like zombies are obviously communist dissidents and should be executed.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,587
9
81
Originally posted by: Lemon law
It does not matter. Red State, blue state, red school district, or blue school district, some school administrators need get their ass fired or their pants sued off of them. They are total idiots.
I agree, but if some dumbass is going to make it a partisan argument, they should pop their head out of their ass and try to know what they're talking about.
 

Rio Rebel

Administrator Emeritus<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
5,195
0
0
Actually, they elected Jesse Ventura for Governor and may elect Al Franken to the Senate.

They're freaking insane. ;)
 

DrPizza

Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
Administrator
Mar 5, 2001
49,619
160
111
www.slatebrookfarm.com
AFAIK, and I've taken a couple of school law courses in grad school, you can require the students to be silent during the pledge, but you can't force them to participate. Making a student stand certainly seems to be participation to me.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,520
0
0
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: Lemon law
It does not matter. Red State, blue state, red school district, or blue school district, some school administrators need get their ass fired or their pants sued off of them. They are total idiots.
I agree, but if some dumbass is going to make it a partisan argument, they should pop their head out of their ass and try to know what they're talking about.
Heh, look who's calling who a dumbass. Just because MN is a "blue state" doesn't mean every single person in the entire state is a Democrat. And while this is by no means a reflection on every Republican, the people who tend to get all turbo-charged about symbols of patriotism do tend to be conservatives and/or Republicans.

Minnesota didn't do anything, some person running the school did...and I hope you're not really suggesting that because they live in MN, that person HAS to be a Democrat.
 

RichardE

Banned
Dec 31, 2005
10,247
2
0
Originally posted by: thraashman
I refused to stand for the pledge in a class senior year. I never stood, but for some reason this day it was said during a different period so I had a different teacher. He told me to stand, I said no. He told me it's a sign of respect and that I had to, I said I wouldn't. He asked why, I said that because I'm an atheist and the pledge comments on "one nation, under god" that it offends me. It disrespects my religion by indicating that I'm not a member of this nation because I hold myself to be under no god. And if the pledge would not respect me I would not respect it and would remain seated.

He kicked me out of the class. When he came out a minute later I said that if I was ever in his classroom for the pledge that I'd gladly leave before it started so that I could be sitting down in the hallway rather than stand for a pledge that clearly shows a disrespect for my beliefs.
Good job sticking it to the man. Its ok though, disrespect the country that gives you the option of religious freedom.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
71,081
20,730
136
Originally posted by: RichardE
Originally posted by: thraashman
I refused to stand for the pledge in a class senior year. I never stood, but for some reason this day it was said during a different period so I had a different teacher. He told me to stand, I said no. He told me it's a sign of respect and that I had to, I said I wouldn't. He asked why, I said that because I'm an atheist and the pledge comments on "one nation, under god" that it offends me. It disrespects my religion by indicating that I'm not a member of this nation because I hold myself to be under no god. And if the pledge would not respect me I would not respect it and would remain seated.

He kicked me out of the class. When he came out a minute later I said that if I was ever in his classroom for the pledge that I'd gladly leave before it started so that I could be sitting down in the hallway rather than stand for a pledge that clearly shows a disrespect for my beliefs.
Good job sticking it to the man. Its ok though, disrespect the country that gives you the option of religious freedom.
Haha awesome.

THIS COUNTRY GAVE YOU RELIGIOUS FREEDOM, HOW DARE YOU USE IT.
 

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